I would say yes, we can lie to someone who is a danger to us or others, who has no right to know the truth, and not incur sin. e.g. the SS asking “Are their Jews hiding here?”Can we lie for save our life? for example if some one would kill us because of our face, can we say “I’m not christian”?
Thanks, But what is your answer to my second question:I would say yes, we can lie to someone who is a danger to us or others, who has no right to know the truth, and not incur sin. e.g. the SS asking “Are their Jews hiding here?”
But, we can’t tell that particular lie. That lie is Apostasy, and a mortal sin. We may never deny Christ.
God Bless
Lord Jesus charged his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ(Matthew16:20)
So If some one ask one of them “Is Jesus the chirst?” On that time he must say “no” or “I don’t know” and both are lie, because he knew that Jesus is the christ.
Doesn’t it mean that some times saying a lie is not a sin?
I would say it occured before Christ was revealed as God, and is not relevent to our current situation.Thanks, But what is your answer to my second question:
Quick comment-GRAVE sin, not mortal sin. We only know if it’s mortal if we know the consent of their will and their knowledge.But, we can’t tell that particular lie. That lie is Apostasy, and a mortal sin. We may never deny Christ.
You’re missing a third option-All they have to say is, “I was told not to give you an answer. Draw your own conclusions.”Lord Jesus charged his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ(Matthew16:20)
So If some one ask one of them “Is Jesus the chirst?” On that time he must say “no” or “I don’t know” and both are lie, because he knew that Jesus is the christ.
It’s objectively a mortal sin. Certain factors can mitigate that and reduce it to venial, but the act itself is still objectively mortal.Quick comment-GRAVE sin, not mortal sin. We only know if it’s mortal if we know the consent of their will and their knowledge.
Lying is itself (i.e., instrinsically) disordered, so no, there are no circumstances or intentions that could justify it.Can we lie for save our life? for example if some one would kill us because of our face, can we say “I’m not christian”?
You mean “grave matter.” It’s not a “sin” at all if consent and knowledge are absent, it’s just a bad thing. If it’s grave matter and a sin, it’s a mortal sin by definition.Quick comment-GRAVE sin, not mortal sin. We only know if it’s mortal if we know the consent of their will and their knowledge.
Yes, but there’s a question whether it is a lie to mislead an evil doer that has no right to know.Lying is itself (i.e., instrinsically) disordered, so no, there are no circumstances or intentions that could justify it.
One may choose not to answer however. Thomas More insisted on his right not to answer the charge of disloyalty to Henry VIII’s new religion, for instance. One may be coy: “Define Christian.” One may run away from the murderer. One may even attack the murderer, if one has reasonable certainty re: his evil intentions (i.e., he’s standing in front of you with a knife, spattered in blood, and you have a wanted poster of his face taped to the door to warn the kids away from him).
Whether or not someone has the “right to know” is irrelevant here. It falls under the circumstances, not the object. It’s particularly egregious to lie to someone who has the right to know – to lie to your wife about where you’ve been all night, to lie under oath to a judge, etc. – but that only aggravates culpability for a pre-existing sin.Yes, but there’s a question whether it is a lie to mislead an evil doer that has no right to know.
To trot out the old chesnut, if the SS officer asks if I have Jews in my house, why does he have the right to know? He doesn’t. He’s asking strictly to commit evil.
Therefore, misleading him is not a lie at all, b/c he has no right to the information.
God
I disagree. I would say telling the truth to the Nazi would be a mortal sin.Whether or not someone has the “right to know” is irrelevant here. It falls under the circumstances, not the object. It’s particularly egregious to lie to someone who has the right to know – to lie to your wife about where you’ve been all night, to lie under oath to a judge, etc. – but that only aggravates culpability for a pre-existing sin.
The reason the act of lying is itself disordered relates to us and to our own natures. We have the communicative faculty so that we can communicate truth. Lying is contrary to that. QED.
I’ll grant that lying to a Nazi is probably a venial sin at worst, but venial sins aren’t non-sins.
The act itself is objectively GRAVE. It has to be done with full knowledge and full consent of will to be mortal. Grave means it WOULD be a mortal sin if it were committed with full knowledge and full consent of will.It’s objectively a mortal sin. Certain factors can mitigate that and reduce it to venial, but the act itself is still objectively mortal.
God Bless
No, it’s a sin if you have PARTIAL knowledge and PARTIAL consent of will, just not a mortal sin.You mean “grave matter.” It’s not a “sin” at all if consent and knowledge are absent, it’s just a bad thing. If it’s grave matter and a sin, it’s a mortal sin by definition.
I think it is highly unlikely that a churchgoing Catholic is unaware that artificial contraception and homosexual marriage is against Church teaching. It is also hard to imagine how one lacks consent in engaging in artificial contraception, or in actively supporting gay marriage.The act itself is objectively GRAVE. It has to be done with full knowledge and full consent of will to be mortal. Grave means it WOULD be a mortal sin if it were committed with full knowledge and full consent of will.
The act is grave, but other factors need to be established before we can definitively say that the sin is mortal.
Even if it were true that telling the truth in that circumstance would be a sin (I tend to agree, but only because the circumstances would be deficient, not the object), it still doesn’t justify lying, which is disordered by nature.I disagree. I would say telling the truth to the Nazi would be a mortal sin.
Our nature is not meant to abet evil. Truthful communication is not meant to aid evil doers.
If you have no right to know something, I have every right to tell you to go jump in a lake. If that response would reveal the truth to the evil doer, I have the right to obfuscate and deceive.
Again, the commandement is “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” To turn over an innocent person to an evil doer is a lot cloer to that than misleading the evil doer.
Just like “Thou shalt not kill” doesn’t mean we can never kill, it means we can’t murder.
God Bless
If you are hiding Jews in your attic, and the Nazis ask if you are, your only choices are 1) lie convincingly, or 2) reveal their presence and cause their death.Even if it were true that telling the truth in that circumstance would be a sin (I tend to agree, but only because the circumstances would be deficient, not the object), it still doesn’t justify lying, which is disordered by nature.
Again, our options are not “tell the truth or else lie.”
Fair point, thanks!No, it’s a sin if you have PARTIAL knowledge and PARTIAL consent of will, just not a mortal sin.
The act itself is grave matter, but we don’t know if the sin is mortal (or, like you said, if there’s even sin involved at all) without more information.
You are endorsing consequentialism, which is a false and non- (anti-) Catholic understanding of ethics.If you are hiding Jews in your attic, and the Nazis ask if you are, your only choices are 1) lie convincingly, or 2) reveal their presence and cause their death.
Do you really think evil men are going to take obfuscation as anything less than an admission? Or, at least check?
God Bless
No I’m not.You are endorsing consequentialism, which is a false and non- (anti-) Catholic understanding of ethics.
What seems like a loophole to us may not be so in the eyes of God.I think it is highly unlikely that a churchgoing Catholic is unaware that artificial contraception and homosexual marriage is against Church teaching. It is also hard to imagine how one lacks consent in engaging in artificial contraception, or in actively supporting gay marriage.
I’m all for giving the benefit of the doubt when warranted, but there’s not much gray in these areas. St. Peter ain’t letting us through the Pearly Gates b/c our lawyer found a loop hole.
God Bless