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Odell
Guest
jsut some questions im alittle rusty on my OSAS Im fallen behind tring to defend the Catholic Church with my dad. so maybe if I can get involved in a debate. It will help I dont know how much I can post though.
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Hesychios
Guest
Oh yes,
It most definitely is possible to lose one’s salvation.
The Gospel is for living and being, not just reading and pondering.
It most definitely is possible to lose one’s salvation.
The Gospel is for living and being, not just reading and pondering.
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love4mary
Guest
Salvation is a Free Gift from God. At any time though, we can either refuse that gift or “give” it back.
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EphelDuath
Guest
I don’t agree with any of those options.
There’s no such thing as “being saved.” You work for salvation which is attained based on God’s judgment when you die. A believer can go to Hell, though no sins guarantee you a spot in Hell, save for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Believers are not immune to any sins for any reason, though they can be forgiven if they are truly repentant.
There’s no such thing as “being saved.” You work for salvation which is attained based on God’s judgment when you die. A believer can go to Hell, though no sins guarantee you a spot in Hell, save for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Believers are not immune to any sins for any reason, though they can be forgiven if they are truly repentant.
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Gamera
Guest
“Salvation” is not the word I would use. I think of “savlation” as meaning our actual entry into heaven. I would word the question, “Can we lose our state of grace?” I assume that’s what’s being asked, so I vote for the first answer.
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elvisman
Guest
Actually, dying with mortal sin on your soul - ANY mortal sin - can pretty much guarantee you an eternity apart from God.
Also - nothing we do can earn us our salvation. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross is what redeemed the world. The Church has always taught that. Our works are our obedience to our faith in Jesus. Without our obedience to that faith, it is dead faith. (James 2:26)
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jttierney1
Guest
The only OSAS scripture I’ve been quoted was Eph.2:8-9 “and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.”
However , the only problem w/ that quote is that the very next line says, “for we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”
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jttierney1
Guest
Also, my favorite quote, which is THE MOST misquoted verse is in the bible is John 3:16.
New American Bible - For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life
King James Version - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Youngs Literal Translation - for God did so love the world, that His Son – the only begotten – He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
That says a lot about eternal security!
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heisenburg
Guest
Ask him what happens if you blaspheme the HS…
If he knows scripture, he will say “You will be separated from Christ and there will be no sacrifice left” Sounds like loosing salvation to me…
But go further… Remember, one of the main audiences of the day was Jews just as much as it was Gentiles… They would have known what it meant when he was talking about Blaspheming the HS.
Then ask him how can someone Blaspheme the Lord. Regardless of his answer, point him to Exodus, There it talks about how if someone knowingly disobeys God, they blaspheme the Lord.
So…
I can be separated from Christ if I knowingly disobey God…
Since this is directly in the bible, ask him how this can be according to OSAS…
If he says well they wouldn’t if they were truely saved… point out that THAT statement is no where in scripture, and that they are countless examples of ‘Christians’ that prove this wrong on a daily basis…
Then ask him since he was ‘saved’ has he ever knowingly done something that is against god… Lust, stole, took the lords name in vain… etc…
If he says yes, then point out that he has therefore blasphemed the HS. if he says no, rebuke him because the bible says trust no man that says he does not sin…
In Christ
If he knows scripture, he will say “You will be separated from Christ and there will be no sacrifice left” Sounds like loosing salvation to me…
But go further… Remember, one of the main audiences of the day was Jews just as much as it was Gentiles… They would have known what it meant when he was talking about Blaspheming the HS.
Then ask him how can someone Blaspheme the Lord. Regardless of his answer, point him to Exodus, There it talks about how if someone knowingly disobeys God, they blaspheme the Lord.
So…
I can be separated from Christ if I knowingly disobey God…
Since this is directly in the bible, ask him how this can be according to OSAS…
If he says well they wouldn’t if they were truely saved… point out that THAT statement is no where in scripture, and that they are countless examples of ‘Christians’ that prove this wrong on a daily basis…
Then ask him since he was ‘saved’ has he ever knowingly done something that is against god… Lust, stole, took the lords name in vain… etc…
If he says yes, then point out that he has therefore blasphemed the HS. if he says no, rebuke him because the bible says trust no man that says he does not sin…
In Christ
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LoveOfTruth
Guest
1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 **We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.**19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Those born of God will not commit sin leading to death.
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estesbob
Guest
So much for free will.
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LoveOfTruth
Guest
You are in error - God causes us to do that which is pleasing in His sight - He does not drag us kicking and screaming. This is a mystery of the working of God. Those who are saved are chosen from before the foundation of the world…and He keeps those who are his…
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
His effectual call brings us to himself and He keeps us. Our will remains intact. Hard but true.
You ought to look these eschatological passages with great joy and hope.
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estesbob
Guest
It will be a false joy & a false hope because OSAS is a false doctrine. The verses you quote support this only if we use your personal interpretation of Scripture. By what authority do you presume to interpret scripture for the rest of us?
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LoveOfTruth
Guest
This is a copout, my friend. All of God’s elect will remain - none will be lost although they fall on occasion. God upholds them with His right hand of righteousness. Christ, their Advocate, is ever interceeding that their faith fail not and that they will remain unto the end. Back to work - lunchtime is over.
May God Lead Us…
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LoveOfTruth
Guest
Real quick…tell me the meaning of 1 John 5:18.
1John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
1John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
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estesbob
Guest
when one sins he rejects God and accordingly is no longer with him or born of him. Unlike you however I’m not going to demand your accept my personal interpretation. We will test your thesis by looking at both Scripture and traditionReal quick…tell me the meaning of 1 John 5:18.
1John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
Tel me how you reconcile your* personal* interpretation of this with the following:
“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’” (Matt. 7:21).
“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).
“For he will render every man** according to his works** . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).
“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).
"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith** but has not works? Can his faith save him?”** (Jas. 2:14).
“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).
"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24).
Here’s what the church fathers have to say about it;
Tatian the Syrian
“[T]he wicked man is justly punished, having become depraved of himself; and the just man is worthy of praise for his honest deeds, since it was in his free choice that he did not transgress the will of God” (Address to the Greeks 7 [A.D. 170]).
Irenaeus
“[Paul], an able wrestler, urges us on in the struggle for immortality, so that we may receive a crown and so that we may regard as a precious crown that which we acquire by our own struggle and which does not grow upon us spontaneously. . . . Those things which come to us spontaneously are not loved as much as those which are obtained by anxious care” (Against Heresies 4:37:7 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“Again, we [Christians] affirm that a judgment has been ordained by God according to the merits of every man” (*To the Nations *19 [A.D. 195]).
Hippolytus
“Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment,’ and the justice of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment” (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Can you give us some quotes from early Christians supporting once saved always saved ? In fact can you find any theologian who supported this false doctrine prior to the Reformation
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DebChris
Guest
God never takes away our free will. Despite our best intentions we all sin. But if we know Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within us, convicting us of any sin we have committed. In this knowledge, we turn back to God and seek the healing Sacrament of Reconciliation.
We are to neither despair nor presume that our Salvation is assured. Once we accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we can reject that salvation by our actions, but why would we want to?
We are to neither despair nor presume that our Salvation is assured. Once we accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we can reject that salvation by our actions, but why would we want to?
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estesbob
Guest
Good question. But unfortunately men have been doing so for 2000 years.
BTW what does accepting Christ as a our personal Lord and Savior mean? I don’t recall a time in my life when I didn’t know that Christ was my Lord and Savior. And isnt he the savior of us all -not just us personally? Is it our God or my God?
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mikeledes
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LoveOfTruth
Guest
This does not refute what I am saying but only complements it. You are taking these items out of context to prove a point apart from other scripture. You still have not told me what 1 John 5:18 means.
When did I say that someone could be elect and wicked? When did I say that you can treasure the promises to the elect and yet go out and sin all you want? I never said that…ofcourse you know that Paul had to defend justification by faith alone as I do many times as well…
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
You give the same objection (which only proves my points on a very regular basis - the same objections that you have against predesitination appear in a couple of places in Romans 9). May times, Paul had to deal with the same objections that I see here regularly.
Tell me what 1 John 5:18 means.
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