Can we make conscious free decision?

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Bahman

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Free will has two words the first one is very difficult to understand in determinism framework where as the second one not. The will is the tendency toward performing an action. In another there are potentialities in occurrence of events that they are represented as options in conscious mind of an agent. There is a problem here since there could be a conflict between being conscious of two options and determinism since determination only accept one potential option hence having two options is meaningless. This means that it just appears in the mind that there are two options but in reality there is one and another option is an illusion. The problem of freedom appears when we are dealing with a situation that two options are potentially equivalent. This of course disturbs deterministic picture since one and only one action is possible so the question is how the whole picture evolve. Consciousness plays no role here as we know that it could be fooled. There is no way that consciousness could evaluate the exact state of subject matter to conclude that two options which are presented are fully equivalent unless one claim that this is exactly what consciousness does when it comes to an ambiguous situation where a decision is needed. A decision then is random in the first case where as in the second case it is free. Consciousness of course cannot play any role in the second case when it come to decision since that requires a preference, once the preference is in the place then that distort the equivalence of the options hence the decision is not free because two potential options are not fully equivalent anymore. So the question is what plays the dominant role in such a situation if it is not consciousness. This is called intellect or subconsciousness which we cannot have any conscious access to. Our consciousness is only become aware of decision when decision is made. In another word we cannot make conscious decision which is free.
 
davidv said:
I make conscious free decisions everyday. Do you?
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You possibly can’t. Because you have to be conscious of a reason to give more weight to one option than another, hence your decision is not free because it is biased by reason.
 
Bahman said:
You possibly can’t.
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How can you possibly know this? Do you know my mind?
Because you have to be conscious of a reason to give more weight to one option than another, hence your decision is not free because it is biased by reason.
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Whether I am biased or not, I am free to ignor any bias in making my choices.
 
davidv said:
Whether I am biased or not, I am free to ignor any bias in making my choices.
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How do you ignore any bias? Once bias is gone how do you do decision since it cannot be backed up with reason? Simply conscious decision are based on reason hence they are not free.
 
davidv said:
By acknowledging the bias and free choosing to ignore it.
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Is this done consciously? If it is so then it has to be supported by a reason. If it is not supported by reason then it is duty of subconscious mind or intellect. You of course become conscious of decision after it is made by subconsciousness.
davidv said:
Are biases the only considerations in making a choice?
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Yes when it comes to conscious decision since you need a reason otherwise your conscious mind never can leave this wonderland by performing a decision.
 
Bahman said:
Is this done consciously? If it is so then it has to be supported by a reason. If it is not supported by reason then it is duty of subconscious mind or intellect. You of course become conscious of decision after it is made by subconsciousness.
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Rejected. Based on the unproven assumption that reasons equal predetermined.
Yes when it comes to conscious decision since you need a reason otherwise your conscious mind never can leave this wonderland by performing a decision.
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I have no idea what this means.
 
Bahman said:
Free will has two words the first one is very difficult to understand in determinism framework where as the second one not…
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The Catholic Church teaches that our acts of the will are free. We are normally conscious when we make a decision. When we are partially conscious, as from illness or injury or half asleep or impared from drugs, etc., we are not fully free. But, if our state of partial unconsciousness was due to drug or alcohol abuse we may be responsible for our acts, eventhough our freedom is impaired.

Why are you fixated on this topic?

Linus2nd.
 
Bahman said:
Is that so when our decisions are supported by reasons? Our decisions in another word is determined by reasons hence they are not free.
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Of course we have reasons for the decisions we make. But these reasons do not " determine " our decisions, in the sense that our reasons force us to act in a specific way. We freely choose to act according to the dictates of reason. Our reasons for choosing to act one way or another do not force or determine us to choose one alternative over one or more other alternatives. We freely choose to do so. You have misapplied the word " determined " in this case.

When you use determined in this way it implies that we have no choice but to act according to those reasons. But that is not true, we often do not act according to the reasons we know to be true. We are free to follow the dictates of right reason or not. That is the Catholic view and the view of most people. Indeed, the legal and penal systems of every modern state, of states, and tribes going far beck into the mists of time acknowledge that our decisions are freely made and that we can be held responsible for them.
Because I want to wholly understand the concept.
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Are you retired like me or are you loafing on the job?

There is a great book which will help you understand human freedom which you can purchase reasonably on the net. It is a classic in Catholic education having some eight editions going back to the 50’s. It is Right and Reason by Austin Fagothey. You can get older editions cheaply.

Linus2nd
 
We have a free decision to follow our reason. All sin goes against reason.
 
davidv said:
I make conscious free decisions everyday. Do you?
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So do I. Bahman has made a simple reality more complex then it needs to be.

We are free to choose and part of that does include “weighing” our options. But that does not mean we are forced to choose the way we do. God does not force us to do anything, including believe in Him.

Once I make a choice and head down that particular “fork in the road” if you will, I may not know all the troubles, obstacles or dangers that will come my direction, but this is true for all choices we make. Our task is to deal with these, not see them as a sign that we have made an incorrect choice. Of course choosing to sin would be a wrong choice and usually leads to greater troubles and dangers.

I truly believe that the choice we make is within Gods ability to continue the work of our salvation. I don’t have to be a Religious, become a Priest, get married or have a certain career to guarantee this. Some choices may be better than others, but God will allow us to make them, and will work out our salvation and that of others within that choice and with our decision to freely cooperate with Him.

Being free is not about problem free decisions, it is about responsibility, options and reflecting on possible consequences. Using our faith as a guiding principal helps us make choices that are free.
 
For Catholics there are three excellent sources for Catholic teaching on conscience and free will and these are all a Catholic needs to know.

" …what is the Catholic teaching on freewill…" I have answered that.

The answer may also be gleaned from chapters 1699-1794 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The philosophical reasoning behind these teachings may be found in Right and Reason by Austin Fagothey, 2nd ed, chanters 5-7. ( there are 8 editions, mine is the 2nd).i

And in St. Thomas’ Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 82 & 83 and Part 2, ques 6-54.
And this is all Catholics need to know.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Of course we have reasons for the decisions we make. But these reasons do not " determine " our decisions, in the sense that our reasons force us to act in a specific way.
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If reason does not completely derive our decisions then what it is? And could we be conscious of that entity?
Linusthe2nd said:
We freely choose to act according to the dictates of reason.
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How do freely choose? Is it done in consciousness? Consciousness simply the sate of awareness from the subject matter. If we accept this definition then decision cannot be made in consciousness instead it is delivered there when decision is made. Lets say that it is decided that you do X and your consciousness is aware of it. How could you change your mind which is necessary for freedom? It is first necessary that consciousness be aware of other option, but then how that is brought to consciousness as an option when a new decision is needed. This cannot be done by consciousness itself.
Linusthe2nd said:
Our reasons for choosing to act one way or another do not force or determine us to choose one alternative over one or more other alternatives. We freely choose to do so. You have misapplied the word " determined " in this case.
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That I agree and I know. But what is that entity which allows us to don’t not follow reasons. Could it be consciousness itself? As it is defined, consciousness is the awareness from the subject matter. The awareness from the subject matter is necessary for performing a decision but it is not sufficient since awareness could not cause something. Why awareness is not sufficient because we cannot decide on a situation when two options are represented fully equal to our consciousness.
Linusthe2nd said:
When you use determined in this way it implies that we have no choice but to act according to those reasons. But that is not true, we often do not act according to the reasons we know to be true. We are free to follow the dictates of right reason or not. That is the Catholic view and the view of most people. Indeed, the legal and penal systems of every modern state, of states, and tribes going far beck into the mists of time acknowledge that our decisions are freely made and that we can be held responsible for them.
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I ask so and I didn’t say so.
 
Cricket2 said:
So do I. Bahman has made a simple reality more complex then it needs to be…
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It is not complex and it is necessary. Lets define consciousness first: Consciousness is simply awareness from subject matter or experience of subject matter. I know very well that the awareness is necessary for performing a decision but is it sufficient too? In another word it cannot cause a decision but it is necessary for causation. So my question is what the entity which is sufficient for a decision? Why this is correct? I cannot design a mind trap in which your are aware of two options which have the same weight in your awareness. You have the same tendency to do X and Y. How your awareness could chose between X and Y.
 
Bahman said:
If reason does not completely derive our decisions then what it is? And could we be conscious of that entity?

How do freely choose? Is it done in consciousness? Consciousness simply the sate of awareness from the subject matter. If we accept this definition then decision cannot be made in consciousness instead it is delivered there when decision is made. Lets say that it is decided that you do X and your consciousness is aware of it. How could you change your mind which is necessary for freedom? It is first necessary that consciousness be aware of other option, but then how that is brought to consciousness as an option when a new decision is needed. This cannot be done by consciousness itself.

That I agree and I know. But what is that entity which allows us to don’t not follow reasons. Could it be consciousness itself? As it is defined, consciousness is the awareness from the subject matter. The awareness from the subject matter is necessary for performing a decision but it is not sufficient since awareness could not cause something. Why awareness is not sufficient because we cannot decide on a situation when two options are represented fully equal to our consciousness.

I ask so and I didn’t say so.
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Why don’t you read some of the material I suggested? Its hard to give a course in human psychology in " post " format. I’m not sure that I always understand what you are trying to say. All I can say is that whatever the precursors of our decisions, our decisions are always free if we are fully conscious ( wide awake and not mentally impaired for some reason ). Decisions we make under sever mental or physical duress or when only partially alert are not fully free because we are " chained " by a mental impairment…

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Why don’t you read some of the material I suggested? Its hard to give a course in human psychology in " post " format. I’m not sure that I always understand what you are trying to say. All I can say is that whatever the precursors of our decisions, our decisions are always free if we are fully conscious ( wide awake and not mentally impaired for some reason ). Decisions we make under sever mental or physical duress or when only partially alert are not fully free because we are " chained " by a mental impairment…
Linus2nd
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I have done a extensive study for example here, here and other stuff but apparently the research still on going meaning that is waste of time to read a book. What I need is article rather than book.

What I am claiming is very simple: Awareness or experience is necessary condition for decision making since it is informative but it is not sufficient for one strong reason, namely if awareness was sufficient then we couldn’t be free because that is the state of subject matter which dictate you what to do. Hence our free decision cannot be made consciously although the consciousness is necessary. Lets see if we can agree on this so we can discuss more.
 
Bahman said:
If reason does not completely derive our decisions then what it is? And could we be conscious of that entity?.
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Not everything in life is reasoned out logically. Sometimes decisions are based upon the mood of the day, spur of the moment and not necessarily thought out logically. There are others who changes their mind every few seconds or so. Just now A looks good, wait, B looks ok too a few moments later but what the heck let us go with C. That was my wife.

And there are many many variables that may not be quantifiable or clearly identifiable that goes towards decision making, so called sixth sense, or just a flippant attitude towards certain things. They do exercise their free will i.e. they really want to exercise the power to make a decision but in another person’s mind that was the most terrible decision ever made.But to that decision maker, no reason need to be given, sometimes the reason proferred if pressed is “I like it that way” but if prodded more " the other way is also ok, no big deal. Actually, all the other options are all ok.". You could have a range of nonsensical reasons to justify something which may be illogical to one but entirely acceptable to another.
How do freely choose? Is it done in consciousness?
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The whole thing about free will is that
a) the decision maker has the power
b)not coerced
c) does not assume decision maker is omniscient. He may be lacking certain information or thought he knew certain knowledge but was actually mislead. The usual conditions apply i.e.

Know what he doesn’t know, doesn’t know what he doesn’t know etc.

So the question whether decision made in the absence of full information (which usually no one possess) but the decision maker is aware as to the ramifications based upon what he knows, is a conscious free decision or not has to be a yes. You knew what you did.
 
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