Can we persuade God?

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Hello,

I report here a post which made me wonder

Originally Posted by LTHarry View Post
A mere brother in Christ who has left this existence does not have this power to do anything or in any way persuade God.

Originally Posted by EricFilmer
May I ask why do you think that the saints in heaven cannot persuade God? The Bible teaches that the prayers of people on earth can persuade God, …]

Moreover, St. John witnessed the martyrs in heaven trying to persuade God:

…], “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”
…]
. We are clearly told that they are trying to persuade God, so if their cries had no ability to actually persuade God then this would indicate that they were praying in vain. …] (and therefore the martyrs have decided to basically waste their time in a futile attempt to persuade God).

Reading these opinions, I was asking myself: Can we persuade God, since God’s will is unchanging and unchangeable?
I think by persuading God we mean something else than litterally persuading. Or I can’t understand.

Thank you :idea:
 
I present to you the Parable of the Unjust Judge and also the Man who came at night:

Luke 18 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

18 And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint,

2 Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man.

3 And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary.

4 And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man,

5 Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me.

6 And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge saith.

7 And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard?

8 I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

I also present to you the Parable of the friend at night:
6 Because a friend of mine is come off his journey to me, and I have not what to set before him.

7 And he from within should answer, and say: Trouble me not, the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.

8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise, and give him as many as he needeth.

Finally, last but not least, from Exodus chapter 32:
9 And again the Lord said to Moses: See that this people is stiffnecked:

10 Let me alone, that my wrath may be kindled against them, and that I may destroy them, and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, saying: Why, O Lord, is thy indignation kindled against thy people, whom thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Let not the Egyptians say, I beseech thee: He craftily brought them out, that he might kill them in the mountains, and destroy them from the earth: let thy anger cease, and be appeased upon the wickedness of thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thy own self, saying: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven: and this whole land that I have spoken of, I will give to you seed, and you shall possess it for ever.

14 And the Lord was appeased from doing the evil which he had spoken against his people.

So, clearly, Scripture shows that yes, God can “change” His mind. Obviously, He knew all along what the outcome would be, but it’s up to us to pray, so from our P.O.V., God “changes”, obviously God Himself is Immutable, so from His Eyes He changes not, but to us, He can change.

It’s one of those Divine Contradictions - we eat bread that is not bread but flesh, we drink wine that is not wine but blood, Jesus is present on the Right Hand of God the Father, Jesus is omnipresent, God is everywhere, God is nowhere, the Godhead is Three, Father, Son and Spirit, the Godhead is One, a Triple Unity.

God bless
 
Interesting question. My first thought was that through praying to God to change His mind, we end up changing ours to conform with His.

God’s Will > my will.
 
SnowAngels said:
Interesting question. My first thought was that through praying to God to change His mind, we end up changing ours to conform with His.

God’s Will > my will.
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That is what i suppose. Otherwise God is changing.
 
I don’t think asking when something will occur is necessarily the same thing as trying to persuade, so I disagree with your interpretation that the martyrs in heaven were trying to persuade God.

In general, I think it is clear that God treats us differently depending on the thoughts in our hearts and the actions we commit. That is the very nature of law and justice, and as it is written in Ecclesiastes, the very worst thing that can befall humanity is for there to be no difference in how the just and the wicked are treated.

At the same time, God stands outside of time, and thus already knows everything that will happen, since from the extra-temporal perspective of God, it already has happened. Thus, in this sense, God is not ever persuaded to do anything. In no way, however, should knowledge of this truth cause one to dismiss the efficacy of actions and prayers in determining what actions God will take… at least from our own limited perspective as we view it from within time.
 
The citizens of Nineveh persuaded God not to destroy their city. Abraham persuaded God not to destroy Sodom if he could find 10 righteous men in it. In the parable of the vineyard owner and the fig tree, the gardener persuaded the owner to give the tree one more chance before it was dug up and tossed into the fire. “Look not upon our sins, but on the faith of your holy people.” God can and is persuaded by our humility and prayers.
 
Leibniz said:
I don’t think asking when something will occur is necessarily the same thing as trying to persuade, so I disagree with your interpretation that the martyrs in heaven were trying to persuade God.

…]

At the same time, God stands outside of time, and thus already knows everything that will happen, since from the extra-temporal perspective of God, it already has happened. Thus, in this sense, God is not ever persuaded to do anything. In no way, however, should knowledge of this truth cause one to dismiss the efficacy of actions and prayers in determining what actions God will take… at least from our own limited perspective as we view it from within time.
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If you reread my first post, you will see it is not my interpretation. My understanding is that “persuade” has another meaning, when facing the Allknowing God. He knows what we will ask before we ask, so we agree.
 
Catholic1954 said:
The citizens of Nineveh persuaded God not to destroy their city. Abraham persuaded God not to destroy Sodom if he could find 10 righteous men in it. In the parable of the vineyard owner and the fig tree, the gardener persuaded the owner to give the tree one more chance before it was dug up and tossed into the fire. “Look not upon our sins, but on the faith of your holy people.” God can and is persuaded by our humility and prayers.
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How do you understand persuasion of a God who knows what you will do before you do it? Prayers are known, your will is known, God has already acted before you ask, so persuasion isn’t the best term to define what prayer does, in my opinion.
 
I have no idea what your point of discussion is then. What is your definition of “persuade,” and why is that particular word and its definition important to you?
 
Leibniz said:
I have no idea what your point of discussion is then. What is your definition of “persuade,” and why is that particular word and its definition important to you?
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My problem came up when I read that saints persuade God (it is in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible, otehr do, as shown above), still God’s will can’t change.

So, what does persuade mean? To me, you cannot persuade God like I would persuade someone, because God knows what I think and is always right and righter than anyone.
Therefore by persuading him, we persuade ourselves, in my opinion.

What do you think persuading God means?
 
I don’t have a lot of concern over what the term persuade means regarding the efficacy of prayers to God, and I’m still not understanding why you do. Does it have something to do with the prayers of saints in heaven being different than the prayers of people on earth? I genuinely can’t tell.

Whatever the case, you seem to be raising an age-old Calvinist issue about human free will and God’s foreknowledge, but for some reason dressing it up in the form of a question about persuasive prayer.

Do we have the free will to either pray one way, or else pray another way? Yes.

Will God respond differently to us depending on how we pray? Yes.

Does God already know what free choice we have made? Yes.

I don’t see what the particular problem is here.
 
Leibniz said:
I don’t have a lot of concern over what the term persuade means regarding the efficacy of prayers to God, and I’m still not understanding why you do. Does it have something to do with the prayers of saints in heaven being different than the prayers of people on earth? I genuinely can’t tell.

Whatever the case, you seem to be raising an age-old Calvinist issue about human free will and God’s foreknowledge, but for some reason dressing it up in the form of a question about persuasive prayer.

Do we have the free will to either pray one way, or else pray another way? Yes.

Will God respond differently to us depending on how we pray? Yes.

Does God already know what free choice we have made? Yes.

I don’t see what the particular problem is here.
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The word persuade can’t be used about a non-changing will. That’s why I would like to understand if by persuade we mean the proper sense, or a figurative sense.
Wouldn’t you be concerned if I told you I can change something that cannot be changed? I would. 🙂
 
“That’s why I would like to understand if by persuade we mean the proper sense, or a figurative sense.”

I think you are getting way too hung up on the word “persuade.” It doesn’t matter. Some people will use it to describe the process we are talking about, and some people won’t use it. It’s not the real issue.

“Wouldn’t you be concerned if I told you I can change something that cannot be changed?”

This here is the real issue, and as far as I can tell, it isn’t any different than the traditional Calvinist argument about making free choices to get God to count us among the elect.

God’s will is unchanging in that He already knows the law of how you will be treated dependent upon what decisions you make. Furthermore, He already knows what decisions you will make. Nonetheless, if you freely chose to make one decision, and not another, then God will respond in one way, rather than responding in another. Just because God already knows what you will do, that does not mean that the choice isn’t real. In this sense, yes, you can “persuade” God to come to your aid based on your choices, because the choices you make are real ones with real consequences.
 
Leibniz said:
“That’s why I would like to understand if by persuade we mean the proper sense, or a figurative sense.”

I think you are getting way too hung up on the word “persuade.” It doesn’t matter. Some people will use it to describe the process we are talking about, and some people won’t use it. It’s not the real issue.

“Wouldn’t you be concerned if I told you I can change something that cannot be changed?”

This here is the real issue, and as far as I can tell, it isn’t any different than the traditional Calvinist argument about making free choices to get God to count us among the elect.

God’s will is unchanging in that He already knows the law of how you will be treated dependent upon what decisions you make. Furthermore, He already knows what decisions you will make. Nonetheless, if you freely chose to make one decision, and not another, then God will respond in one way, rather than responding in another. Just because God already knows what you will do, that does not mean that the choice isn’t real. In this sense, yes, you can “persuade” God to come to your aid based on your choices, because the choices you make are real ones with real consequences.
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The word persuade is the very centre of this topic.
I am not talking about predestination or foreknowledge; only God’s unmodifiable Will, with our prayers going to Him, how can this be persuasion. It is a figurattive sense to me, and if you use it, please make it clear, when you say some may use this or that sense, well it would be better to know.
 
Fr. Chad Ripperger says, “You cannot change God’s mind through your prayer. Why? God is eternal and unchanging. He doesn’t change. But what happens is that God preordains that if you fulfill a certain level of prayer and penance, the effect of your prayer will come about. If you don’t, it doesn’t.”

You can hear the quote in context in this sermon at roughly the 4:00 mark:

sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/SL/sl1.mp3
 
I don’t see where you have presented a clear issue to discuss, so I will excuse myself from this thread.
 
Well the paradox between God’s Will, unchangeable, and the idea that through prayer we may persuade Him, that would change his Will.
If you don’t see a problem, please expose why it isn’t one. I would do it.
 
OaTmEaL said:
Fr. Chad Ripperger says, “You cannot change God’s mind through your prayer. Why? God is eternal and unchanging. He doesn’t change. But what happens is that God preordains that if you fulfill a certain level of prayer and penance, the effect of your prayer will come about. If you don’t, it doesn’t.”

You can hear the quote in context in this sermon at roughly the 4:00 mark:

sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/SL/sl1.mp3
Click to expand...
Thank you, I will listen to it as soon as I can 🙂
 
No we cannot persuade God. God is unmovable. But God still desires that we petition him because he loves us and wants to hear our prayers. The petitioning itself is of value regardless of the outcome, as it draws us out of ourselves.

God is also outside of time. Our concept of trying to change someone’s will and move them to our desired result assumes a being whose will is bound by a linear movement of time.
Change requires different points in time, no? Yesterday I wanted “x”, today I am persuaded to want “z”. God is not bound by the present moment or the next moment, he sees all times at once. So by definition he is not changeable.
God simply is…He self-identifies as “I Am”.
 
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