Can we please be more Charitable to other Religions and people here?

[Angel7]

I have noticed that when someone is defending Mormonism and Islam there are several uncharitable comments made at them. It surprises me how someone could things that are offensive and disrespectful for their beliefs. As Christians we must respond with Love … always. Charity doesn’t stop online.

So next time someone is talking about something which is wrong or against The Church. Lets still respond with love.

 

[benidict]

I have noticed that when someone is defending Mormonism and Islam there are several uncharitable comments made at them. It surprises me how someone could things that are offensive and disrespectful for their beliefs. As Christians we must respond with Love … always. Charity doesn’t stop online.

So next time someone is talking about something which is wrong or against The Church. Lets still respond with love.

i can agree to that.

 

[Saintlucy]

Are we meant to ignore blatant and insulting things being said about our Lady, our faith, or the Sacraments and put up with obvious imposters posing as clergy. Yes we all strive to be humble and to guide the mistaken but sometimes we have to stand up and be counted in this world. The martyrs did. We are called to be witnesses to the truth as Christ our Lord was.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I have noticed that when someone is defending Mormonism and Islam there are several uncharitable comments made at them. It surprises me how someone could things that are offensive and disrespectful for their beliefs. As Christians we must respond with Love … always. Charity doesn’t stop online.

So next time someone is talking about something which is wrong or against The Church. Lets still respond with love.

The devil makes the best use of it, if a spokesman for the Catholic faith uses methods that embarrass or belittle the wrong beliefs of others. When St. Paul was on Mars Hill he spoke differently about the superstitions of the Athenians, than he might have in an epistle to one of the churches. He looked high and low for something to agree about. It is useless to have discussions without establishing a common belief that will help us to have more than the logic to draw closer to each, but even more importantly the will:

But Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:

—Acts 17:22, 23

This is a public forum. It is a Mars Hill of activities, hosted of course by the Catholics, but with invitations to non-Catholics to come and hopefully learn. Sometimes we act like we think the non-Catholics are mere intellects who are capable of hearing a message from a hateful messenger. They cannot hear us if they hate us. They also have a will that must be made good if they are ever to learn the peace of God that comes through the fulness of the Gospel of Christ. They must be glad to have us as friends before they can be properly disposed to listen to our arguments. It is not for nothing that the Angelic Choir at the Nativity proclaimed peace to men of good will. We have to win their hearts before we can win minds. It isn’t enough to provide substance for the intellect if we do it in a way that gives offense. He that would heal souls must be as solicitious to be amiable as he is to be uncompromising about the truth.

I am not suggesting a sloppy sentimentalism that fails to inform the erring of their errors. But that we have to maintain a two-fold witness that begins with supernatural love that would rather die than offend someone’s will, followed by appeals to the intellectual faculty.

 

[benidict]

Are we meant to ignore blatant and insulting things being said about our Lady, our faith, or the Sacraments and put up with obvious imposters posing as clergy. Yes we all strive to be humble and to guide the mistaken but sometimes we have to stand up and be counted in this world. The martyrs did. We are called to be witnesses to the truth as Christ our Lord was.

no my dear friend. but, there is a way to do this, and keep your charity alive. i dont know if you have ever seen an exchange between my self, and a poster who comes on here and gets regularly banned. its always after him and i converse. how is it done? he hates me more than any other Catholic. so when i know hes on, i make contact with him. let the games begin! the more hateful he gets, the more charitable i get. its interesting that it puts him into a serious frenzy, but he cannot help but continue. i am actually praying for his salvation. and i do not sit idly by when he insults or Mother, our Faith, or my Catholic Brothers/Sisters. or anyone for that matter. you are all too dear to me. Peace

 

[CatholicFireman]

Are we meant to ignore blatant and insulting things being said about our Lady, our faith, or the Sacraments and put up with obvious imposters posing as clergy. Yes we all strive to be humble and to guide the mistaken but sometimes we have to stand up and be counted in this world. The martyrs did. We are called to be witnesses to the truth as Christ our Lord was.

Amen to that.

 

[VetA]

I have noticed that when someone is defending Mormonism and Islam there are several uncharitable comments made at them. It surprises me how someone could things that are offensive and disrespectful for their beliefs. As Christians we must respond with Love … always. Charity doesn’t stop online.

So next time someone is talking about something which is wrong or against The Church. Lets still respond with love.

i never stop hearing people whining about charity, so please explain to me what it is. because i am not quite sure of the definition

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Are we meant to ignore blatant and insulting things being said about our Lady, our faith, or the Sacraments and put up with obvious imposters posing as clergy. Yes we all strive to be humble and to guide the mistaken but sometimes we have to stand up and be counted in this world. The martyrs did. We are called to be witnesses to the truth as Christ our Lord was.

Hi St. Lucy,

I am sensitive to the pain that is caused by insults to what is holy and lovable. But our reflective words can not be said out of desire to satisfy ourselves upon the blasphemer, for we know that any evening of the score, any vengeance belongs not to us:

To no man rendering evil for evil. Providing good things, not only in the sight of God, but also in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good.

—Rom 12:17-22
If from motives of obedience to these precepts we maintain silence before the fools, we will not be displeasing to God.

There are certainly a few fools and scornful souls who are eager to offend us. The Old Testament even offers discouragement to engage fools lest we be caught up with their ways.

Forsake childishness, and live, and walk by the ways of prudence. He that teacheth a scorner, doth an injury to himself: and he that rebuketh a wicked man, getteth himself a blot. Rebuke not a scorner lest he hate thee.

—Prov. 9:6-9

It doesn’t seem that God’s wisdom is to try to correct those who you describe above. If we do, it doesn’t help them, and it appears we are the worse for our efforts. I am thinking that we should avoid entangling ourselves with fools, and if they persist in being obnoxious, they can be justly banned from the forum.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

i never stop hearing people whining about charity, so please explain to me what it is. because i am not quite sure of the definition

VetA—I’ve seen you around. You know it is one of the three theological virtues, the one that is pre-eminent and essential for our salvation. I’m sorry if I be perceived as a whiner. I love sarcasm. I have a gift for insulting rhetoric and have thought that I have often failed in charity. Brother, please read my previous posts and persuade me that I have license to give full vent to my passionate desire to show how clever I am in dealing with those who are in error and especially those who give offense.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I believe that the word “charity” is not the issue. Charity simply means

1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.

But it does not mean always being nice or ignoring false prophets and teachings. Was Jesus charitable when he cleaned the Temple? Was Peter charitable when he was lied to about money?

We are called to battle:

10 Finally, brethren, be strengthened in the Lord, and in the might of his power.
11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.
12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
13 Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice,
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
16 In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one.
17 And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God).

When we see the false prophets and the false gods of Islam, Mormonism, Jehova Witness, etc., we are not to act as if what they say is true. We are to stand firm, correct them…for THAT is charity…to give them the gift of TRUTH. To not give in to the false gospels and false teachings.

When we proclaim truth without wavering, we are being our most charitable…

 

[VetA]

VetA—I’ve seen you around. You know it is one of the three theological virtues, the one that is pre-eminent and essential for our salvation. I’m sorry if I be perceived as a whiner. I love sarcasm. I have a gift for insulting rhetoric and have thought that I have often failed in charity. Brother, please read my previous posts and persuade me that I have license to give full vent to my passionate desire to show how clever I am in dealing with those who are in error and especially those who give offense.

the reason i get ‘uncharitable’ when i hear the virtue of charity being thrown around is i feel people use it as a way to shut people up. a theoretical example: someone defends a comment well but gets noticibly angry (maybe using sarcasm but otherwise the argument is sound) at the absurdity of a claim he is defending against, regardless of the soundness of his argument someone uses the quote button and bolds the offending statment and says somrthing like

well that isnt charitable is it

and suddendly there are 100s of people coming out and telling that person off for his lack of charity and ignoring the rest of his argument. i have seen things like that happen not only to me (once, or at least i thought my argument was good:shrug but to a few people

i would provide examples but i just recently cleared my subscriptions so you will have to take my word for it.

 

[VetA]

i believe that the word “charity” is not the issue. Charity simply means

1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.

But it does not mean always being nice or ignoring false prophets and teachings. Was jesus charitable when he cleaned the temple? Was peter charitable when he was lied to about money?

We are called to battle:

10 finally, brethren, be strengthened in the lord, and in the might of his power.
11 put you on the armour of god, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.
12 for our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
13 therefore take unto you the armour of god, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.
14 stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice,
15 and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
16 in all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one.
17 and take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit (which is the word of god).

When we see the false prophets and the false gods of islam, mormonism, jehova witness, etc., we are not to act as if what they say is true. We are to stand firm, correct them…for that is charity…to give them the gift of truth. To not give in to the false gospels and false teachings.

When we proclaim truth without wavering, we are being our most charitable…

[sign]thank you![/sign]

 

[MelanieAnne]

When we proclaim truth without wavering, we are being our most charitable…

Or as Fr. Corapi often says “It is not charity to confirm someone in their sin.”

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

You must not allow human respect to get in the way of the Truth, to do so is to place man above Truth and ultimately above God who is the author of Truth.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I believe that the word “charity” is not the issue. Charity simply means

1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.

But it does not mean always being nice or ignoring false prophets and teachings. Was Jesus charitable when he cleaned the Temple? Was Peter charitable when he was lied to about money?

We are called to battle:

10 Finally, brethren, be strengthened in the Lord, and in the might of his power.
11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil.
12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.
13 Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice,
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
16 In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one.
17 And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God).

When we see the false prophets and the false gods of Islam, Mormonism, Jehova Witness, etc., we are not to act as if what they say is true. We are to stand firm, correct them…for THAT is charity…to give them the gift of TRUTH. To not give in to the false gospels and false teachings.

When we proclaim truth without wavering, we are being our most charitable…

I am very concerned to be fully armed against the forces of the devil. That is why I do not lightly rebuke those who are scornful of the Catholic faith. It appears to me that this is one of the ways that the devil uses to drag us down with the scorner. see my notes above. I am not advocating that we be cowardly. The righteous indignation of our Lord withe money changers and of St. Peter with Ananias and Saphira are compatible with holy charity. The Anathemas of the Church are a form of charity too. But none of these are in the context of a discussion forum to which non-Catholics are welcomed. There are people who are twisted of mind and heart who hate us. If you had the power to turn off their computers or the authority to even have them slain by the Spirit of God, I would not take issue with that.

I am taking issue with the notion that we may be justified in returning unkind words in an unkindly way, making ourselves into what they are. Sir Thomas, I am not even concerned for the fools. They are out of our reach. I can’t care about them as much as I care for us, my fellow Catholics. Let God “heap the coals of fire on their heads” and I won’t grieve much. I promise. My heartfelt concern is that there is a dangerous temptation that we are warned about in our Catholic faith whereby we can be ensnared and harmed ourselves not by the words of the blasphemer and scorner, but by our own words and behavior to such people. And that is a context we live with in an internet discussion forum.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

the reason i get ‘uncharitable’ when i hear the virtue of charity being thrown around is i feel people use it as a way to shut people up. a theoretical example: someone defends a comment well but gets noticibly angry (maybe using sarcasm but otherwise the argument is sound) at the absurdity of a claim he is defending against, regardless of the soundness of his argument someone uses the quote button and bolds the offending statment and says somrthing like and suddendly there are 100s of people coming out and telling that person off for his lack of charity and ignoring the rest of his argument. i have seen things like that happen not only to me (once, or at least i thought my argument was good:shrug but to a few people

i would provide examples but i just recently cleared my subscriptions so you will have to take my word for it.

Yeah I have seen it too. I think I have been the victim of it. It isn’t fair. Sooooooooooo, we agree then that it doesn’t work to get worked up? Can we agree that it isn’t the utilitarian thing to do show our anger? We have to be on our guard for an entire conversation, knowing that there are vipers who will pounce at the first opportunity to show that our tone has a note of meanness in it. I am not here to just be right for myself. I want to persuade. I want to change people’s minds. Of course the Spirit of God must be present, and I don’t think He is prone to honor the efforts of those who think it is okay to violate the Church’s teachings about how to deal with the scornful.

I don’t waste time when I perceive someone is a fool because to do so is unproductive and even harmful to me. Why mess with people of corrupt hearts and minds? It doesn’t help them or us. I am resolved under most conditions not to condescend to speak harshly to a grownup, an adult over whom I have no authority.

 

[Saintlucy]

[sign]thank you![/sign]

Thank you and the posters after you. I wish I’d said that.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

You must not allow human respect to get in the way of the Truth, to do so is to place man above Truth and ultimately above God who is the author of Truth.

I am not advocating anything out of a motive of human respect. I have lost my respect for blasphemers. It is for a different motive that I am calling for a reevaluation of the way we deal with hard-hearted and obnoxious souls when they appear on this forum. I have outlined my reasons and position above and I will gladly concede if you or anyone cares to show how I am guilty of private interpretation of the Scriptures that belong to the Church.

How did St. Francis de Sales win Geneva back from the Calvinists? Was it by stern and harsh rebukes? Was it because his arguments were irrefutable? In part, yes. But the people were predisposed to listen to a man of whom his biographer writes:

Indeed, so sweet was his disposition, so tender-hearted and compassionate was he, that he used to say “If God had told us to hate our enemies, I do not know how I could have obeyed Him, it is so sweet to love them.”

—St. Francis de Sales, A Biography of the Gentle Saint, Louise Stackpoole-Kenny, TAN Publishers 2002, p. 114

I blush myself to write those words, feeling how far short I fall of loving my enemies, ignorant of the sweetness of which the saint speaks. If anyone can say that their harshest words are begotten of a similar motive as that of the gentle saint, I have no words of correction for you. God will bless you and your listeners. But if your motive is less than his, as your brother, far from your enemy, your friend, I warn you, it is highly dangerous for our own souls to rebuke angrily from unworthy motives.

 

[LongJourney]

I don’t waste time when I perceive someone is a fool because to do so is unproductive and even harmful to me. Why mess with people of corrupt hearts and minds? It doesn’t help them or us. I am resolved under most conditions not to condescend to speak harshly to a grownup, an adult over whom I have no authority…I am taking issue with the notion that we may be justified in returning unkind words in an unkindly way, making ourselves into what they are. Sir Thomas, I [can only pray] for the fools. They are out of our reach… I care for us, my fellow Catholics. …

Agreed, in essence. That is one reason why I rarely respond to two of the Mormon posters. The third has some wits left about him.

 

[Newbie2]

I am resolved under most conditions not to condescend to speak harshly to a grownup, an adult over whom I have no authority.

Even when they act like three year-olds?

I guess that’s what the mods are for, to oversee that discussion doesn’t get too heated or personal…and having been on other theological forums, I think for the most part the moderation on the CAF is pretty fair.