Can we "prove" that EVERYTHING has a cause?

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I’m not a philosophy major or anything, so please bear with me…

So, I was listening to a philosophy teacher on youtube claiming that Aquinas’ 5 ways are littered with assumptions. So eventually I came along David Hume (or at least a summary of his position) stating that we can’t prove that everything has a cause, therefore Aquinas’ cosmological arguments are invalid, because his assumptions are only probable, not absolute.

While I disagree with the position, I must admit I can’t completely, definitively refute it. Is there something obvious I’m missing?

The closest I can get is:
  1. Everything I can perceive in reality I can deduce to have a cause, even if I don’t necessarily understand the nature of the cause (ex. the technology behind the computer I’m typing on).
  2. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” itself has a cause (presumably Hume)
  3. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” in itself doesn’t prove that some things don’t have a cause.
3b) We’re not omniscient, so we can never be absolutely sure something exists that didn’t have a cause. If we did, we’d be God 😛
  1. Not a valid rebuttal I suppose, but science can’t work without inductive logic, and assumes there are patterns we observe that have causes we can deduce, though not necessarily understand the “essence?” of the cause (ex. gravity).
Can anyone make a more solid rebuttal?
 
I’m not a philosophy major or anything, so please bear with me…

So, I was listening to a philosophy teacher on youtube claiming that Aquinas’ 5 ways are littered with assumptions. So eventually I came along David Hume (or at least a summary of his position) stating that we can’t prove that everything has a cause, therefore Aquinas’ cosmological arguments are invalid, because his assumptions are only probable, not absolute.

While I disagree with the position, I must admit I can’t completely, definitively refute it. Is there something obvious I’m missing?

The closest I can get is:
  1. Everything I can perceive in reality I can deduce to have a cause, even if I don’t necessarily understand the nature of the cause (ex. the technology behind the computer I’m typing on).
  2. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” itself has a cause (presumably Hume)
  3. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” in itself doesn’t prove that some things don’t have a cause.
3b) We’re not omniscient, so we can never be absolutely sure something exists that didn’t have a cause. If we did, we’d be God 😛
  1. Not a valid rebuttal I suppose, but science can’t work without inductive logic, and assumes there are patterns we observe that have causes we can deduce, though not necessarily understand the “essence?” of the cause (ex. gravity).
Can anyone make a more solid rebuttal?
If this dude is saying that Aquinas thinks everything has a cause, you should simply stop listening to him right now. Don’t waste your time. Nobody defends that statement.
If that is not a valid response, could you possibly provide more context as to which of the five ways and what part of that individual one he is referencing. That might help a lot more.
 
The philosopher teacher on youtube merely mentioned Aquinas’ makes a lot of assumptions in his 5 ways, but doesn’t specify.

The book specifically citing David Hume I’m afraid I can’t remember, it was a random intro to philosophy book I came across at a bookstore.

I guess I should clarify, I’m not saying either me, teacher, or the book stated Aquinas ever said God had a cause.

The “mystery” book did assert that Aquinas’ 5 ways were rendered invalid by Hume’s reasoning, however. I assume it meant 3 of the 5 ways having to do with causation (motion/causality/potentiality->actuality)
 
I’m not a philosophy major or anything, so please bear with me…

So, I was listening to a philosophy teacher on youtube claiming that Aquinas’ 5 ways are littered with assumptions. So eventually I came along David Hume (or at least a summary of his position) stating that we can’t prove that everything has a cause, therefore Aquinas’ cosmological arguments are invalid, because his assumptions are only probable, not absolute.

While I disagree with the position, I must admit I can’t completely, definitively refute it. Is there something obvious I’m missing?

The closest I can get is:
  1. Everything I can perceive in reality I can deduce to have a cause, even if I don’t necessarily understand the nature of the cause (ex. the technology behind the computer I’m typing on).
  2. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” itself has a cause (presumably Hume)
  3. The statement “you can’t prove everything has a cause” in itself doesn’t prove that some things don’t have a cause.
3b) We’re not omniscient, so we can never be absolutely sure something exists that didn’t have a cause. If we did, we’d be God 😛
  1. Not a valid rebuttal I suppose, but science can’t work without inductive logic, and assumes there are patterns we observe that have causes we can deduce, though not necessarily understand the “essence?” of the cause (ex. gravity).
Can anyone make a more solid rebuttal?
Unless you know your Faith forwards and backwards and unless you know the Philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas very well, listening to these idiots will endanger your Faith.

Buy " Aquinas " by Edward Feser or check it out of a library.

You will have to fight your own battles.

Linus2nd
 
Well, I gotta start somewhere, that’s why I’m asking. No one ever truly fights their battles alone.
 
I don’t mean to be unhelpful, but someone simply asserting that Hume renders the first three Ways invalid, but not specifying is a pretty poor way to go about proving a point. I am sorry I cannot help more. Maybe you could link to the Youtube video?
 
Unless you know your Faith forwards and backwards and unless you know the Philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas very well, listening to these idiots will endanger your Faith.

Buy " Aquinas " by Edward Feser or check it out of a library.

You will have to fight your own battles.

Linus2nd
This 👍

:clapping:

Too many pseudo philosophers going around.
 
As ccmnxc said, it is common for people who don’t understand Aquinas to misquote him and say he argued that “everything has a cause.” This has led generations of poorly- taught philosophy students to ask the next logical question IF you accept this false premise - “Okay, so what is God’s cause?” Aquinas was too intelligent a man to make that argument, so there’s no need to defend it. I would also recommend one of Feser’s books on Thomistic philosophy, who does an excellent job of explaining with clarity what can be difficult to explain if we rely on modern views of metaphysics - which tend to be stunted.

Not from a Thomistic perspective, but an inductive argument says that if it is possible that things in our universe can happen without a cause, we would expect to see examples if this in our day to day life. A green chicken did not just appear on my desk as I write this (and never has), and I can think of no other examples in our universe of anything that ever appeared without a cause. If Causality can be so easily violated, there would be no restrictions on when or how commonly such things happened. We just don’t see that. A properly basic belief, or an axiom to which we can extend an appropriate level of belief, is that things in the Universe we witness have causes.

Now, if we have a set (or lets say a room) with two Things in it. Thing One can be the cause of Thing Two, but then Thing Two can’t also be the cause of Thing One. My son can’t also be my father. Logically, there must then be something outside the room that is a cause for one of the Things in the room. If I introduce Thing Three into the room, Thing One could be the cause of Thing Two and Thing Three, but Things Two and/or Three couldn’t then be the cause of Thing One as well. Thing One could be the cause of Thing Two and Thing Two could be the cause of Thing Three, but Thing Three still couldn’t be the cause of Thing One, so we are back where we began - we still have to account for a cause of all three Things, which has to be outside the room.

If we introduce 100 Things in the Room, or 1000, or a gazillion billion times google Things in the room - we still have the same problem - there has to be a cause for all those Things outside the room. Even an infinite number of Things (which probably isn’t a concept that can exist in the real world) can’t account for the cause for all those Things.

Let’s say we take a really, really big room (or, let’s say, a set) and include every Thing there is which has a cause in it. The problem still remains. We have to have something outside the box, or room, or set, which contains all Things that have a cause. The Universe is one of those Things, and the Universe logically cannot be the cause of itself. There must be one Thing, and one Thing only (otherwise we have just moved the box out in size a bit, and haven’t accounted for all Things) that does not have a cause, and is the cause of all other Things. There must be an uncaused Thing, or Cause, that presupposes all other caused Things.
 
Cause and Effect appears universal and necessary for any change, without cause(s) there is status quo or stacis. Also, the cause needs to be greater than the effect in this ‘physical and temporal’ universe [there needs to be an impetus, a directing momentum], hence we have the phenonenon of entropy in which over time heat/energy is slowly ‘lost’, until in theory the universal temperature [in some thousands of million years - if the Good Lord wishes it to continue so] reaches extremely close to absolute zero and ‘eternal stacis’.

In needing a cause, logic dictates there must always be/have been a cause - an I AM - an underlying and all pervading ‘force’/reality/being that is greater than all subsequent causes and effects.
 
We can not prove it. It is God’s will that “things” happen, and that is what we also call “faith”.

We don’t need to prove anything about faith. If someone have it, and some don’t, that is also something that is meant to be.

I have learn over so many years that nothing happend “just because”. That is one reason why I believe.

Can we change what is “supposed” to happen? Well, we actually can. If we let it happen we do God’s will, if not, we do not obey God.

Why do “bad” things happen? Is God evil? No, He is not. “Bad” things also happen for a reason, some are up to us because we try to change what God want, some for reasons we really don’t need to know.

Then, what do we need to know? We need to know that God love us. We need to know that He care for us. We need to know that He want us to one day be with Him in Heaven, so He have give us free will to choose, hoping we are worth that free will.

Why is it so importen to prove something? In science it is, but life is not science, life is about faith and doing God’s will.
 
Hmm…perhaps I should have worded the subject better, but I think I get what all of you are saying.

I think the main argument I was trying to get across and refute is:

**-We can never be absolutely certain everything in the knowable universe has a cause.

-Perhaps somewhere in the universe, as non-sensical as it sounds, blue, 50 ft. squirrels do pop out of nothing, and we just have never observed it.

-Since we’re not omniscient, any thing we think we know is an assumption, only more or less probable.**

So therefore, if everything we know is only probable, including cause/effect, Aquinas’ cosmological proofs are not proofs, only probable speculation, hence invalid proofs.
Not from a Thomistic perspective, but an inductive argument says that if it is possible that things in our universe can happen without a cause, we would expect to see examples if this in our day to day life. A green chicken did not just appear on my desk as I write this (and never has), and I can think of no other examples in our universe of anything that ever appeared without a cause. If Causality can be so easily violated, there would be no restrictions on when or how commonly such things happened. We just don’t see that.
Even if we are unable to observe that something can pop out of nothing, doesn’t that mean it could be possible?

hahaha, sigh, this is actually kind of funny. I’m trying to refute a statement that says maybe something can pop out of nothing, but philosophically view God as an impossibility. It seems to me that a will is required for anything to happen at all. But I think Lasting faith is correct - it is an irrefutable argument, just as its contrary is - you can’t prove God doesn’t exist either. To be able to do either would require being God.

It’s just I never thought that even the concept of cause & effect would require faith. All knowledge requires a leap of faith, not just God.
 
David Hume was the ultimate skeptical philosopher.
Somebody had already said that the material world is an illusion.
Hume took the last step and said that we don’t exist.
Wags responded with, “No matter? Never mind.”

Samuel Johnson, talking with his friends about Hume, said, “I refute him thus” and kicked a stone.

Did Hume really believe his own nonsense? Apparently he believed in food. He weighed 350 pounds.

Ignore these idiot philosophers.

Anything that changes has to be caused by something else. There can be no exceptions. Therefore, God created the universe.
 
Not from a Thomistic perspective, but an inductive argument says that if it is possible that things in our universe can happen without a cause, we would expect to see examples if this in our day to day life.
Which we appear to do, on the quantum level. What is the ‘cause’ of vacuum particle pairs, for example? This question, naturally, requires agreement on the definition of a ‘cause’, which has derailed so many threads on this topic, but we have good reason to conclude that this occurs all the time all around us with no proximate efficient cause.

Also, the statement that “if it is possible that things in our universe can happen without a cause, we would expect to see examples if this in our day to day life” is blatantly false. If it is possible for virgins to give birth, or the dead to return to life, or the Son of God to incarnate Himslef in the flesh, does that mean that I should witness these things occurring every day on my desk? Just because a corporeal Jesus “did not just appear on my desk as I write this (and never has)” does that mean that I can rule out the possibility that Jesus ever did incarnate himself in the flesh? Please don’t condescend to or insult those who do not share your beliefs in this manner.
 
I am aware that quantum particles appear randomly. However, can we actually say they have no cause? How would one go about proving that.

As to your comment on virgin births and resurrection, it seems to be a categorical error considering these would be supernatural, which would happen at the discretion of God and without any natural order or laws to govern them.
 
Originally Posted by Arizona Mike
Not from a Thomistic perspective, but an inductive argument says that if it is possible that things in our universe can happen without a cause, we would expect to see examples if this in our day to day life.
Which we appear to do, on the quantum level. What is the ‘cause’ of vacuum particle pairs, for example? This question, naturally, requires agreement on the definition of a ‘cause’, which has derailed so many threads on this topic, but we have good reason to conclude that this occurs all the time all around us with no proximate efficient cause.

When asked how the universe could have started by itself, atheists will say it was an “accident”, or “chance”, or a “quantum effect”.

What atheists don’t seem to understand, or refuse to admit, is that all three of these things can only act on something that already exists.
There is no accident, or chance, or quantum effect if there is absolutely nothing.

But the atheists will ignore this obvious and simple concept.
 
minion - It is impossible to get anything pop out of anywhere without a cause.

‘Nothing’ is not capable of producing ‘something’ out of ‘nothing’. Even Dawkins will agree to that being the case, if really pushed.
 
minion,

You are correct in stating that “we can never be absolutely certain everything in the knowable universe has a cause,” and that as we do not share God’s omniscient perspective, we cannot be absolutely certain that, in some remote corner of the universe, blue 50 foot squirrels are not popping out of nowhere and dancing the gavotte with green chickens. You go on to argue that since we can’t be certain of anything, not even the principle of Causality, that all beliefs are “only” assumptions, and that Aquinas’s cosmological proofs are not in fact, “proofs,” only probable speculation, and hence are “invalid” proofs.

This led you into an epistemic, nihilistic philosophical quagmire where you seem to feel that nothing in this universe, not even God, can either be proved or disproved, and that even a belief in Causality, and all other knowledge, requires an act of faith.

Congratulations.

I think every undergraduate has this realization at some point. Don’t let it bog you down. If we examine the definition of “proof, we can still prove some things to a reasonable degree of certainty, which I would define as evidence sufficient to base further decisions on. That’s all we really need. “Proof” as commonly used by humans, not absolute proof.

I should probably also note that Aquinas considered his 5 points in the Summa Theologica as “arguments” (actually, “viae” or “ways”) for God’s existence rather than absolute “proofs,” so your argument that this invalidates Aquinas’s proofs is probably a surmountable objection. St. Aquinas was providing evidentiary arguments that leads the reader towards evidence that is sufficient to reach a conclusion on the veracity of a proposition.

You also will run into some logical self-defeaters to your arguments when you make claims of ontological absolutism. Isn’t your argument that “all knowledge requires a leap of faith” itself a leap of faith? How can we say for certain that your argument is true if it requires a leap of faith to believe, in and of itself?

In the same way, we can argue that no court of law ever absolutely “proves” something - a finding is made beyond a reasonable doubt in the eyes of the fact-finders (jury or magistrate), and we consider this as being “proven” innocent or guilty. We consider this sufficient “proof” for the state, acting in our stead, to deny a person’s liberty or even to take his life.

So, as human beings, we allow for a certain degree of ambiguity and non-absolutism when we make decisions, even quite important ones.

But you are correct that “Every form of human belief requires the acceptance of certain postulates by faith.” Those who hold to a strictly materialist view of the universe (which they might lay claim to as a “reasoned” or “scientific” view) require any number of acts of faith (that is, the extension or assertion of reasoned belief to what are deemed reasonable postulates or axioms that are ultimately unprovable in our current ontological state, but which we use to build our base of knowledge about the universe and to make our decisions about our future actions.) (That’s not the prettiest definition of “faith,” but it works in both the physical and the theological sciences.
 
So, all science requires faith in axioms. If I want to do Geometry, I have to accept the following 5 postulates on faith, as there is no possible way to prove them:
  1. Through any given pair of unique points, there is exactly one unique line that passes through both.
  2. Every line segment has one unique midpoint.
  3. For any give pair of unique points there is exactly one circle containing the second point with the first point as its center.
    
4. All right angles are congruent to each other.
  4. (Euclid’s Parallel Postulate) Given a line and a point not on the line, there exists one unique line that passes through the given point which is parallel to the first line.
I can pretty much recreate all Euclidean geometry from scratch on a desert island with those presumptions, although it helps to have some additional presumptions, such as “things equal to equal things are themselves equal.” If you are familiar with geometry, they seem to make sense, but they are all articles of faith. If I am a wicked smart brainiac like Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevskii or Janos Bolyai, I can even replace a postulate like #5 with a different one, and come up with a rational, internally self-consistent system of non-Euclidean geometry.

These postulates are unprovable and are Articles of Faith, then.

Even the attempt to use Logic to resolve our questions requires us to first accept the arguments of formal logic. We cannot use logic itself to prove these first premises of logic, so again, we are forced to accept certain starting premises.

But before I can even get to those, to do any kind of science I have to accept still other Articles of Faith. I have to accept that the universe is orderly and runs on accepted rules (such as…Causality). I have to accept that there are other consciousnesses that can understand my discoveries, and that if those consciousnesses do the same experiments I do, that they will achieve the same results I did, all conditions being equal. I even have to accept that science is a useful use of my time.

So, we are dealing with more Articles of Faith.

At this point, a materialist will usually argue that these postulates aren’t what anyone considers “faith,” they are just observations of observable phenomena or rules of logic or rules of thumb that anyone could deduce. They will argue that “faith,” as religious people use the term, is believing in crazy, “non-scientific” things for which there is no evidence.

I would agree that extending faith to a unique idiosyncratic belief, such as a non-evidential belief that there is a talking dog named Sam who lives inside the walls of my apartment and who is giving me advice, is a crazy thing for which there is no evidence. (Or so Sam just informed me.)

But for the views of religious faith held by most Christians, it is sufficient to point out that there is no evidence against the existence of the Christian view of God; that there is a strong body of evidence that points towards the Christian view of God; that there exist no inherent contradictions in a Christian view of reality; and that sufficient numbers of the world’s greatest thinkers have so embraced the Christian view of God, on faith, that it cannot be argued that it is an inherently unreasonable view. According to Gallup, 93% of Americans believe in God, so it is hard for a materialist to argue that pretty much everyone else is wrong and that he and his friends are the only ones who are right.

And while it is possible that everyone else is wrong and you are right, as Brother Guy Consolmagno has said, if almost everyone else gets “7” as the answer on an arithmetic math test and you get “777,” you know whose math we’re going to check first.). Again, this is not a proof for the existence of God, but it is some good evidence for the proposition that faith in God is not unreasonable.
(I would also suggest reading Pope Francis’s recent encyclical on the nature of Faith itself, for a better understanding of what the Church considers “Faith” to be. It’s quite well-written)
 
Can there even BE an absolute proof for the existence of God? The Church says absolutely not. We are required to approach God with Faith, and while reason can lead us part of the way, for the big mysteries - such as the Trinity and the Incarnation - the Church categorically teaches that there is no absolute proof, it has to be approached with Faith, in the same way we approach any relationship with another from a position of reasoned trust. I have no absolute faith that my wife really loves me - she could be biding her time and slowly poisoning me to collect the insurance money - but the evidence “proves” that she does, in fact, love me, based on her willingness to ignore my many failings, such as leaving the dishes in the sink last night.

(And that demand for Faith makes sense - let’s imagine there exists some kind of absolute proof for the existence of God. But it’s not easy to understand - you have to have advanced degrees in physics and cybernetics to even begin to understand all the equations involved, as well as a working knowledge of symbolic logic and non-Euclidean geometry. Maybe 2 or 3 people in the world have the I.Q. to understand it, but once they do, they are instantly converted to a belief in God. Would He work that way? If a “proof” of God requires superior intellect, where does that leave the rest of us who possess quite average (or below average) intellects? Are we damned? We have no such absolute proofs for God in this life.

Such a proof, if we haven’t discovered it yet, would have to be extremely complicated and could only be considered from a Gnostic view of the universe, with hidden secret knowledge that only the elect can posses. As Garrison Keillor has pointed out, by definition not everyone can be above-average, and intellect is a gift, it’s not something that was evenly apportioned out. God would not restrict proof of His existence to just the smart people, He wants us all to come to knowledge to Him, and the gift that we have all been given to do that is the capacity for Faith.)
 
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