Can we really be good without God?

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like probably some of us here, i’ve encountered some atheists online who’s rallying around the slogan found in billboards put up by some atheist groups. they are quick to say that yes, we can be good without God. some of them claim that they have raised their children atheists and that they are upstanding citizens. they study hard, get good grades and don’t get into fights. they respect their elders and follow the law.

but can you really say in today’s society that you can be good without God? is not today’s moral standards set by Christians? isn’t the teachings of Jesus what taught us to uplift the poor, help the disabled, protect the weak? if not for these Christian values, would the world’s free countries seek to protect and promote equality among all?

i don’t have the answers to these. but those who can, please share.

what was the world like before and during the time of Christ? were the empires back then helping the least of their citizens? were there empires where everyone is free and equal? are there any behavior thats considered intolerant today, acceptable back then?
 
I think that the breakdown of the family unit is the primary cause of the troubles of today. And as someone who lived as an atheist for years and then as an agnostic, I can assure you that happiness is found with the Catholic Church and The Holy Trinity. If we could get more people back into the Church to hear His words, and away from the distractions and temptations of the modern world, I think that we would be doing much to heal the gaping wounds of our world.
 
great!

but we must prove to people that goodness does come from God

the misconception nowadays is that following the moral code of society and the laws means you’re good and you don’t necessarily have to believe in God. my main counter argument is that the moral code and civil laws are all based on Christian morals
 
Sometimes, the only thing we can do is pray for the atheist… And witness our faith, witness with our life. And pray, pray, pray!.. Mother Mary said “our fasting is the most powerful way to convert atheist”.🙂
 
The notion of ‘good’ came about because of religion. If the world suddenly became atheist, very soon - perhaps after just one generation, maybe two - the concept of ‘good’ will have become distorted. Kinda like what it’s doing today in the secular world… where the good is now being called bad and the bad is being called good.
 
Good is relative to it’s end. To what end are we supposed to be good? If there is no life after death to what end is answered " the pursuit of happiness" That runs into problems when you define happiness. It’s relative. I don’t want the kind of society that made Hitler happy.

A question that atheists hit a wall answering in regards to good " To what end?"
 
Goodness can very well be an end in itself.
Doing the right thing, knowing that you have been true to yourself, knowing you are a better person because of it - that is most rewarding,

Being good because you hope to be rewarded by going to heaven is very similar to what He rejected “For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?” Matt 5:45-46

Do the right thing for the pure joy of doing good, of helping your fellow man.
Do the right thing and He will welcome you into His heaven - irrespective of which religious teaching (if any) you believe in.
You have done what He hoped you would do. You have loved.

Go with Love, Go with God
 
We are not created to be “good,” we are created to be *holy, *to do good not because we then feel good about ourselves or because we then have a nice life or others will think we are good, but because we are to love God and to serve him by helping others of His creation.

Radio Replies puts it this way:
  1. Why cannot a man live a good life without religion?
He can do some good things without religion. He can refrain from drunkenness, and pay his debts to his fellow men. But he cannot live a really good life unless he does the main thing for which he was made. And the main thing is that he knows, loves, and serves God, and regulates his conduct towards his fellow men by motives of love for God.

Keeping out of trouble is a far cry from what we called to be as Christians. We are called not merely to be good but to be *supernaturally *good, and this we cannot do without God’s help.
 
choy said:
like probably some of us here, i’ve encountered some atheists online who’s rallying around the slogan found in billboards put up by some atheist groups. they are quick to say that yes, we can be good without God. some of them claim that they have raised their children atheists and that they are upstanding citizens. they study hard, get good grades and don’t get into fights. they respect their elders and follow the law.

but can you really say in today’s society that you can be good without God?
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The atheist fails to realize the standard by which good is defined is God.
They claim that they can be good without God, but do not realize that they must define their good in terms that are outlined with the commandments of God.

Once the standard by which good is measured is taken away, what are we left with?
 
excellent posts guys and gals!

does anyone have historical proof (links to sites would suffice) showing the state of the world’s morality before and at the time of Jesus? how did Jesus’ teachings affect the moral code of the world?

i always say that before Jesus, uplifting the poor and defending the weak was a rarity. nowadays we look out for the least, the poor. and while most people still have the tendency to undermine them, laws do protect them. and i believe that this comes from Chrsitianity. agreed?
 
If you really want to get into a debate with atheists about this, here are some of their arguments in Youtube format:

youtube.com/watch?v=yLLNZ2Vnt7U

youtube.com/watch?v=YqC73omSk4o

From the second one: God is telling Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and He asks Abraham if he thinks it is wrong. Abraham replies, “If I thought it was wrong? Like I’d know! Like I have any chance of forming an independent basis of right and wrong outside the instructions of some supervisory being?”
 
The good that people do is a result of the natural law given to man by God that is imprinted upon our hearts. So in one sense no you can’t do good without God.

In the one thread the comment was made about the atheists that raised good children that are upstanding citizens and don’t hurt other people. Raising children in an environment that is devoid of Godly values and having them come out as good citizens is certainly possible. But, let’s not forget though that without God any sort of values that are taught to these kids or held by the parents are sort of value neutral. That is they are always up for negotiation. There is nothing to anchor these values in place like there would be in home that trys to live by Christian values based on God’s laws. We don’t even have to go to extreme examples like murder, but just take something simple like stealing. In the atheist household maybe they were taught all stealing is wrong, certainly that is a good value to have. But what happens when dad steals something and tells the kids they other person wasn’t using it. Now the maxim of all stealing is wrong is finished and now stealing under certain conditions is allowed. Perhaps a few months later another condition is added. If the parents had raised the kids to believe in an immutable law and rules that exist outside of what they make up then even if the parent was a bad example the kids could have something to look to that is unchanging.

So, to restate what I’ve said you can raise good kids without God, but just realize that there is nothing there to tie the morality down and fix it to one spot. It’s like a boat on a lake when the water is calm all is fine but when it starts to get rough the boat is tossed about and loses its bearings.

ChadS
 
choy said:
like probably some of us here, i’ve encountered some atheists online who’s rallying around the slogan found in billboards put up by some atheist groups. they are quick to say that yes, we can be good without God. some of them claim that they have raised their children atheists and that they are upstanding citizens. they study hard, get good grades and don’t get into fights. they respect their elders and follow the law.

but can you really say in today’s society that you can be good without God? is not today’s moral standards set by Christians? isn’t the teachings of Jesus what taught us to uplift the poor, help the disabled, protect the weak? if not for these Christian values, would the world’s free countries seek to protect and promote equality among all?

i don’t have the answers to these. but those who can, please share.

what was the world like before and during the time of Christ? were the empires back then helping the least of their citizens? were there empires where everyone is free and equal? are there any behavior thats considered intolerant today, acceptable back then?
Click to expand...
Morality and good have to be defined under some kind of metaphysical framework. An act/demeanor is good because…(insert underlying framework here).

We Christians, for instance, look to the Trinity and the natures of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Good is defined by their nature (I think that’s how it goes).

Other metaphysical frameworks have their own definitions of good as well. Islam and Judaism are a couple of example frameworks. I believe their definitions of good are based on some objective facets of reality (whether it be true or false).

Then there’s atheism, which comes in many shapes and forms. Regardless of the type, I don’t think any version of atheism offers a solid, objective standard for good. Some attempts have been made with utilitarianism, pluralism, particularism, Kantian moral theory, etc., but I think atheist theories of objective morality are implausible. Some theories grant that morality is subjective, but then the words “good” and “upstanding” don’t really seem to have much worth. We’d be praising people who exhibit noteworthy qualities, but these qualities are noteworthy because we deem them so. That doesn’t sound like much of an achievement…

This doesn’t mean that atheists can’t still be good. Assume for a moment that Christianity is true. Atheists can still exhibit many good Christian attributes. However, they might exhibit such qualities for the wrong reasons - namely, some false notions about reality (my act produces the greatest possible good, it is prima facie right, it obeys the Categorical Imperative, etc.).

So to answer your question in brief, atheists can exhibit many good qualities. Whether they can exhibit all good qualities that a human being can possibly exhibit is another story. It all depends on the truth about reality.
 
God doesn’t abandon atheists to sin and death. He is capable of doing good things through anyone. The atheist will of course deny that God had anything to do with their help at the homeless shelter or blood donation. This does not change the fact that Jesus still dwells in their inner being, and when they help another person in the least of ways, they are helping Jesus.

Can we be good without God? If we think that we can, then we are guilty of polytheism.
 
Why would someone be good?

Some are good because of the small boat mentality or knowing that in order to have a safe stable society, certain rules have to be adhered to. Failure to keep to those rules would lead to a failure of the society and would be detrimental to their own self preservation. How ever this is limmited to the aspects that are tangible and normally associated with reward vs the risk of getting caught.

Some are good because in our nature we have some inclination to good. Whether it be genetic or devine in nature (or one through the other) is irrelevant. The fact is our species could not have survived as long as it has if people did not have some inclination to work toward the common good.

Some are driven by a need to be accepted by society. Our Christian based society has established morality as a social norm and those in direct contact will tend to adopt those norms even if they don’t subscribe to the source rationale for those norms. However each degree of separation from the source of those norms will result in further degredation of the moral behavior.

Others are moved by the direct teachings of God and react in a way that is contrary to their personal desires out of a cognizant desire to please God.
 
Atheists are not born in a vacuum. They have usurped for themselves the moral standards set by God and promoted by Catholicism.
 
choy said:
like probably some of us here, i’ve encountered some atheists online who’s rallying around the slogan found in billboards put up by some atheist groups. they are quick to say that yes, we can be good without God. some of them claim that they have raised their children atheists and that they are upstanding citizens. they study hard, get good grades and don’t get into fights. they respect their elders and follow the law.

but can you really say in today’s society that you can be good without God? is not today’s moral standards set by Christians? isn’t the teachings of Jesus what taught us to uplift the poor, help the disabled, protect the weak? if not for these Christian values, would the world’s free countries seek to protect and promote equality among all?

i don’t have the answers to these. but those who can, please share.

what was the world like before and during the time of Christ? were the empires back then helping the least of their citizens? were there empires where everyone is free and equal? are there any behavior thats considered intolerant today, acceptable back then?
Click to expand...
I have recently read in a book, Choices?, I believe it is, that yes, indeed one can be moral without believing in God. This, because all good comes from God. There can be good it “has been written on our heart”. It is a gift of Grace. It is our choice as to how close we wish to be with God, but yes, one can perform good and live morally without faith in God.

The problem begins, I think, when one tries to become s/his own god.
 
Choices yep. Animals are good. They are good because they make the choices that pertains to their nature. The natures of all creatures besides man and angels are good. Although created naturally good, nature that lacks good is possible for man and angels. Man and angels are self determined creatures. It is their nature. The nature of their being that finds it’s source directly from God.
 
choy said:
like probably some of us here, i’ve encountered some atheists online who’s rallying around the slogan found in billboards put up by some atheist groups. they are quick to say that yes, we can be good without God. some of them claim that they have raised their children atheists and that they are upstanding citizens. they study hard, get good grades and don’t get into fights. they respect their elders and follow the law.

but can you really say in today’s society that you can be good without God? is not today’s moral standards set by Christians? isn’t the teachings of Jesus what taught us to uplift the poor, help the disabled, protect the weak? if not for these Christian values, would the world’s free countries seek to protect and promote equality among all?

i don’t have the answers to these. but those who can, please share.

what was the world like before and during the time of Christ? were the empires back then helping the least of their citizens? were there empires where everyone is free and equal? are there any behavior thats considered intolerant today, acceptable back then?
Click to expand...
I think modern societies would still be promoting equality and basic human rights, simply because these values grew out of the Enlightenment, which happened more than a millennium and a half after the establishment of Christianity. As to the relationship between Christianity and the Enlightenment, well, I’m not sure on that one, but there was certainly a great deal of medieval tradition - apparently unchallenged by the Church at the time - that taught that it was virtuous to accept one’s God-given lot in life, and not expect any better. Charity to those less fortunate is of course a good thing, but it’s not the same as giving people the opportunity to rise to the same level. The Bible is also quite ambivalent on the subject of slavery, for example. It certainly doesn’t actively promote equality in this life.
 
Sair said:
I think modern societies would still be promoting equality and basic human rights, simply because these values grew out of the Enlightenment, which happened more than a millennium and a half after the establishment of Christianity.
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Yes, but the so-called Enlightenment was definitely an outgrowth of Christianity.
As to the relationship between Christianity and the Enlightenment, well, I’m not sure on that one, but there was certainly a great deal of medieval tradition - apparently unchallenged by the Church at the time - that taught that it was virtuous to accept one’s God-given lot in life, and not expect any better.
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The Catholic Church teaches to accept suffering, but does not in any way “keep people down.” In fact, many poor young men and women were given an education and good positions in the Church because of their abilities.
Charity to those less fortunate is of course a good thing, but it’s not the same as giving people the opportunity to rise to the same level.
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Since the Church encourages both, there is no problem here.
The Bible is also quite ambivalent on the subject of slavery, for example. It certainly doesn’t actively promote equality in this life.
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The sort of slavery practiced in Biblical times was very different that that practiced in the American colonies, which was condemned by the Church in the 1400s. In Biblical times, slavery was mostly either prisoners of war or what we later called indentured servitude for the paying off of debts.
 
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