Can we sin via our dreams?

[aarontassin]

I woke up with an unusual feeling this morning and I thought if it was possible to sin via an event in your dreams. Before I convinced myself that it was impossible because it was only a dream, I thought about what a dream truely consists of. I believe dreams can be both physical and spiritual in nature. Ever wake up with a racing heart after a nighmare? Well I have and that constitutes that a dream does have an effect on our flesh and seeing that we sin against God and the spirit via our flesh I started thinking that if we truely desire to abstain from sin while we are awake, the devil may then use our dreams as a gateway to sin. I also believe that the devil does not have to focus on those whom he has already won. He tends to focus more on the people who truely desire to plese God. We know that the devil is very clever and very good at deceiving man so if he can’t get us while we are awake, then why not try to get us while we are sleeping? Why not try to get us when we are unaware of his presence? Why not try to get us in our dreams?
Science has determined that dreams originate in our brain and religion has determined that the devil puts evil thoughts and temptations in our heads in an effort to get us to sin. I believe dreams also consist of some of our deepest bodily desires. Fornication is a mortal sin and if we strive to abstain from sex while we are concious and are successfull, would the devil then wait until we are in a weakened state of concousness and tempt us with fornication or adultry in our dreams? I don’t see why not. We are sometimes trained to believe that we have no controll of our dreams but in all honesty we do. We can say no to temptation in our dreams just as we can when we are awake. So my question is, if we commit a mortal sin in our dreams, does the possibility that we have sinned exist? I feel that it does. What are some of your ideas?

 

[Cristiano]

Catholics understand that we cannot sin because of our dreams. During a dream we do not have access to our free will, that holds true even in the case of a lucid dream.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Catholics understand that we cannot sin because of our dreams. During a dream we do not have access to our free will, that holds true even in the case of a lucid dream.

I agree. Also, you must be able to tell the difference between a *fantasy *and a dream.

 

[daeve]

I don’t have control of my dreams. In fact, if someone could tell me how to control them, I’d appreciate it. My dreams are so vivid that I almost hate going to sleep. My actual life is very dull in comparison.

 

[GEddie]

I woke up with an unusual feeling this morning and I thought if it was possible to sin via an event in your dreams. Before I convinced myself that it was impossible because it was only a dream, I thought about what a dream truely consists of. I believe dreams can be both physical and spiritual in nature. Ever wake up with a racing heart after a nighmare? Well I have and that constitutes that a dream does have an effect on our flesh…What are some of your ideas?

Dreams have an effect on you BODY, as the racing heart, ragged breathing etc. suggest. But “flesh” in the sense of sin is not the same as the body; you can sin psychologically (consider the words of our LORD about “adultery in ones heart”) without at all using your body. The human body is innocent; it has no memory or will of its own.

Dreaming is not an action, though; your will is not involved. It is, ISTM, your head running through its stock of remembered images while recharging your nerve cells for the next bit of conscious life. If youe sexual system engages, you will have dreams about sex, but there is no sin since you did not desire the images or to dream them. It’s just like passing a pornographic sign on the road. If you just let it pass and don’t commit it to your mind, ISTM, you are not sinning. IANAP, though, so ask your spiritual advisor, if you have one.

P.S. I am not sure whether spirits other than GOD Himself can access our minds. I will ask a priest about that. ICXC NIKA.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t have control of my dreams. In fact, if someone could tell me how to control them, I’d appreciate it. My dreams are so vivid that I almost hate going to sleep. My actual life is very dull in comparison.

You would need to know when you are dreaming; this is called a “lucid dream”. Do a web search on the term. There are techniques to teach your mind for this. Once you know that you are dreaming, you can control the course of the dreams.

If your dreams are so vivid compared to your waking life, why not use what you dream to improve your waking life? ICXC NIKA.

 

[aarontassin]

Catholics understand that we cannot sin because of our dreams. During a dream we do not have access to our free will, that holds true even in the case of a lucid dream.

Who is we? I’ve realized that I have total control of what I do in a lucid dream.

 

[aarontassin]

P.S. I am not sure whether spirits other than GOD Himself can access our minds. I will ask a priest about that. ICXC NIKA.

From what I have learned about the mind and the heart, our heart is the superior cognitive force. The devil tempts us via feelings of our flesh. Those sensations are interperated by the brain and have a negative and destructive effect on the neurological system in ther heart. God has access to our hearts. The devil has access to our brains. I believe that in a perfect world, the heart would be used for thinking and cognition and the brain would be used mostly for storage and involuntary muscle movements such as breathing and digestion.
If you want more information go to GOOGLE and type in “Heart brain.” Some of the information will blow your mind and the pictures are incredible.

 

[Holly3278]

I’m pretty sure that you cannot sin via your dreams. The reason being that you do not have access to your free will while you are asleep.

 

[TheWhim]

Can we sin via our dreams? - If your conscience is uneasy about this matter, I would suggest to you to be rather too severe than too lenient with yourself.

Pursuing this harsh line in setting the matter straight, I would firstly presume that no dream falls from the sky into the head of the person dreaming at night but can only arise because it is already preconditioned in the person’s experiences and expectations. One must not drive the issue as far as Freud in saying that every image of a dream is a secret or openly recognizable realization of a certain desire(and one certainly must not try to be as ridiculous as he preferred to appear in claiming that every such desire is rooted in sexuality). But it is mere common sense to ascertain that a dream often goes in advance of our expectations, that it only amplifies and distorts a kind of material already present in the mind, in the neural patterns, and that it thus bears ressemblance to our own psychic makeup. Indeed, it would be Jungian to believe that dreams could stand in no relation with our ego-consciousness and assault the ‘I’ like some altogether unimaginable dark force. - Someone who has never been in Paris and never heard of Paris simply won’t dream of being in Paris, of visiting the Louvre or the Eiffel Tower. And someone whose saintly mind is completely detached from all those base sentiments of human resentment certainly would be quite unable to dream of himself beating somebody else up, or else wouldn’t dream in any other way about it than in the way of an exasperating nightmare.

As a sidenote: I’m a strong believer in the influence of eating habits on dream patterns. For instance, after a family feast(in other words: after an evening of gluttony) when I go to bed with my stomach still rumbling loudly, dreams tend to be more prolific.
Taken as much into consideration, I’d propose you should choose light articles of food in the afternoon and try to abstain from both eating and drinking after, say 4 p.m. Let’s see if you won’t find that the frequency of your dreams is in prospect of declining. Of course, this sounds very much like deprivation, and I would only recommend it if the suffering from nightmares really was untenable. But perhaps it’s worth the try.

 

[GEddie]

From what I have learned about the mind and the heart, our heart is the superior cognitive force. The devil tempts us via feelings of our flesh. Those sensations are interperated by the brain and have a negative and destructive effect on the neurological system in ther heart. God has access to our hearts. The devil has access to our brains. I believe that in a perfect world, the heart would be used for thinking and cognition and the brain would be used mostly for storage and involuntary muscle movements such as breathing and digestion.
If you want more information go to GOOGLE and type in “Heart brain.” Some of the information will blow your mind and the pictures are incredible.

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Your heart is for pumping blood and (mebbe) feeling emotions. Everything worthwhile, cognitively happens in you head (seeing, hearing, smelling, thought processing, limb movement commands) and can be tracked by MRI and PET scanners.

If the “mind” (which is a process) lived in the heart, why are human beings basically the same after a heart transplant? (Gloopy romance flicks aside).

 

[GEddie]

I would firstly presume that no dream falls from the sky into the head of the person dreaming at night

Indeed. If a dream did “fall from the sky”, it would be a supernatural experience, either of temptation, or of prophecy (which is not strictly predicting the future, but generally a message from GOD). The content would tell you which is which. Otherwise dreams arise from sense images already in your head. If, then, you are plagued by dreams having troubling content, you would need to repent not for having the dream, but for allowing these ideas into your head while awake.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[aarontassin]

As a sidenote: I’m a strong believer in the influence of eating habits on dream patterns. For instance, after a family feast(in other words: after an evening of gluttony) when I go to bed with my stomach still rumbling loudly, dreams tend to be more prolific.
Taken as much into consideration, I’d propose you should choose light articles of food in the afternoon and try to abstain from both eating and drinking after, say 4 p.m. Let’s see if you won’t find that the frequency of your dreams is in prospect of declining. Of course, this sounds very much like deprivation, and I would only recommend it if the suffering from nightmares really was untenable. But perhaps it’s worth the try.

I believe as you do when it comes to eating habits having an effect on dreams. And to be totally honest the only reason I started taking an interest in getting deeper into the spiritual world is because I have for the first time given the concept of fasting a try and I’ve been hit with the spiritual world like a ton of bricks. I’ve recently come to find out that there is more to the spiritual world than meets the eye. That could be taken quite literally because I believe that America as a whole has forgotten about the spirit world. Well maybe not totally forgotten about it but we certainly haven’t shown it the respect that it deserves. I don’t want to at all sound elated but my dreams along with my temptations have drastically intensified since I started fasting and digging deeper into the religious realm. I’ve been tempted by things that I’ve never been tempted with before. So either the devil is more powerful than we give him credit for or I’m experiencing the strangest coincidence ever. From what my religious leaders have told me, when you fast you open yourself up more to the spiritual world because you have weakened the body. They’ve also said that when you show an interest in getting closer to God, the devil works overtime one you. I wouldn’t call my recent dreams nightmares, but I have noticed that I am being tempted in them. I’ve always had free will in my dreams I just never thought anything of it until now. I figured the thought was worth entertaining.

 

[aarontassin]

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Your heart is for pumping blood and (mebbe) feeling emotions. Everything worthwhile, cognitively happens in you head (seeing, hearing, smelling, thought processing, limb movement commands) and can be tracked by MRI and PET scanners.

If the “mind” (which is a process) lived in the heart, why are human beings basically the same after a heart transplant? (Gloopy romance flicks aside).

I recomment this link heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart.html
Scientist have discovered that the heart greatly influences how we perceive the world. Compounded with the widely accepted idea that life is 10% what happens and 90% perception. It’s worth researching. Lucky for us, there are lots of scientists whom have already done the research for us. We just have to read their results
So I wouldn’t be so quick to discredit the heart. Also give your bible a good…open You’ll see that heart is mentioned 656 times. That’s enough for me to believe that maybe there is something special about the heart. Otherwise Jesus would have said brain. However, from what I have read, God places more significance on the thoughts that come from the heart rather than what comes from the brain. As a Catholic you should know that we will be judged based on our hearts. For example
Mat 15:18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
Pro 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil, but those who plan good have joy.
Pro 15:13 A glad heart makes a cheerful countenance, but by sorrow of heart the spirit is broken.
Luk 6:45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Luk 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Gotta love E-Sword There are so many mentions of thinking via the heart that it entertained me enough to think that maybe there were times it should be taken literally. Now science is discovering that the heart is a congnitive force. You are correct that the heart pums blood but thats not all it does.

 

[geometer]

I don’t have control of my dreams. In fact, if someone could tell me how to control them, I’d appreciate it. My dreams are so vivid that I almost hate going to sleep. My actual life is very dull in comparison.

The last thought that you have before you fall asleep influences your dreaming the most. Someone mentioned lucid dreaming. That is a good way to stop nightmares.

 

[wanstronian]

If the “mind” (which is a process) lived in the heart, why are human beings basically the same after a heart transplant? (Gloopy romance flicks aside).

Nice.

Also give your bible a good…open You’ll see that heart is mentioned 656 times. That’s enough for me to believe that maybe there is something special about the heart. Otherwise Jesus would have said brain. However, from what I have read, God places more significance on the thoughts that come from the heart rather than what comes from the brain.

I suspect that’s because if you use your brain alone to analyse religion, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Saying that “you must believe with your heart” puts religion neatly beyond rational assessment.

Now science is discovering that the heart is a congnitive force. You are correct that the heart pums blood but thats not all it does.

Citation please, this is of genuine (scientific) interest to me!

 

[tonyrey]

So my question is, if we commit a mortal sin in our dreams, does the possibility that we have sinned exist? I feel that it does. What are some of your ideas?

In law courts throughout the world a person is deemed guilty if he or she consciously commits an illegal act. No one has ever been convicted of an offence committed while asleep. The burden of proof is therefore on the person who claims that someone who is asleep can be guilty of a sin.

 

[aarontassin]

In law courts throughout the world a person is deemed guilty if he or she consciously commits an illegal act. No one has ever been convicted of an offence committed while asleep. The burden of proof is therefore on the person who claims that someone who is asleep can be guilty of a sin.

If God judged us the same way that we are judged in court that would difinitely put my mind at ease. Humor with this thought though. Say we have free will in our dreams which sometimes we do. Say in a dream where free will is executed to commit a sin. If God knows what we dream, which he does, could he possibly take offense to an act willfully committed against him even if it is in a dream. I mean a wife takes offense when her husband dreams of sleeping with another woman and God did make us in his image and likeness so that arouses such an issue. This is a philosophy forum so lets keep an open mind.

 

[aarontassin]

Nice.

I suspect that’s because if you use your brain alone to analyse religion, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Saying that “you must believe with your heart” puts religion neatly beyond rational assessment.

Citation please, this is of genuine (scientific) interest to me!

Well saying that the heart is a cognitive force far superior to the brain, heartmath.org/research/sc…the-heart.html
I feel that too few people have realized how to think with their hearts to make this a mainstream concept. Especially in America. (America as a whole seems to be much more interested in what appeals to the flesh. Consequently, the spirit will never be fully satisfied. Romans 8) The flesh lives 80-100 years. The spirit lives forever. The proof that America falls into the catagory of the flesh is all the scientific research done to show that we are the fattest country in the world. healthyamericans.org/reports/obesity2009/
I don’t want to sound harsh but there are a lot of kind and compassionate obese people in America. Imagine how much stronger they would be if they could control their desire to eat. Obesity causes heart disease. Speaking from the bible’s perspective, why give yourself heart disease just because you can’t control what goes in your mouth? In a sense, obese people damage what the bible considers as very sacred. Uh oh! Isn’t that a grave offense? To cause damage to something considered sacred constitutes a sacrilege. A sacrilege constitutes a grave matter. CCC 2290+2291 That takes us back to dreams. If something you willfully do in your dream causes damage to your heart via a “racing heart,” would that be considered offensive?

 

[Detales]

Actually, Aaron, you will likely find, after more consideration, that the heart is a feeling intelligence, as is the brain an emotive and (if trained) rational intelligence. If the emotive and the heart have too much attention, and the rational is not trained, then the potential for reason deteriorates into rationlaizing. That means that it is possible for the brain to rationalize things into a semblance of consistant reality that seems valid, but is not to a great extent true. This is so apparent that one famous author said "Man is a rationalizing animal. That doesn’t even go into the libraries that have been written aobut natural human stupidity as a common theme in world history.

In fact, many mystics say that the ordinary waking state of by far the majority of humans is exactly this condition: rationalization mimicing reality due to emotionalism, oversensitive feeling, and lack of perceptual training. In other words, it is the “waking dream” state most of us live in. Most people who undergo even a superficial training in self-knowledge discover that this is true beyond their wildest expectations. On the other hand, most people are happy to accept what they are handed as a way of thinking and run with it, blind spots and all. It is for this reason there are now studies being done in the correlation of ordinary life and stage magic, as the same blind spots apply. And let’s not forget the added turbulence that is caused by inherent falacies in our English grammar and the usual 100+ ordinary cognative errors we are all trained into using.

None of this is meant to be a downer, it is to alert us all to some aspects of the foe in ambush, or the deciever. So, I would maybe back off being so unforgivingly hard on yourself, and maybe use another gift God gave you, namely, the possibilities of using a better trained reasoning faculty. We could all, without exception, be clearer in our thinking.