Can we trust the Apostles?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BenSinner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
They were changed after the Resurrection etc.
From running away from Jesus being arrested to dying for the Faith.
 
No. You would never say that about general relativity, gravity or the heliocentric model. That’s because those things are falsifiable. Religion is not, hence it should only ever be discussed or believed in as a good moral teaching, not as a source of dogmatic truth, because it lacks the ability to prove itself unambiguously
 
Curious11 said:
No acceptable proof of that.
Click to expand...
Again, it comes down to the standard of proof.

What would you consider acceptable proof for an event that happened 2000 years ago, in a gathering of 13 men? More to the point, why would your standard be reasonable for an event in antiquity? 🍿
 
Curious11 said:
No. You would never say that about general relativity, gravity or the heliocentric model. That’s because those things are falsifiable. Religion is not, hence it should only ever be discussed or believed in as a good moral teaching, not as a source of dogmatic truth, because it lacks the ability to prove itself unambiguously
Click to expand...
:point_up_2:t2:

And about why that standard is acceptable for an event that occurred 2000 years ago: because eternity in hell is at stake. So you better be damn sure of what you’re talking about. No religion is, which makes a pretty strong case that God is either non-existent or doesn’t deserve a moment of worship
 
Last edited:
Faith is probably the correct answer. There is an element of circularity in most of the other reasoning, but there isn’t anything wrong with circular reasoning if somewhere along the line there is an empirical break in the circle. Unless everybody who ever witnessed a miracle was mistaken, there have been quite a few breaks in the circle over the last 2000 years. 🙂

On a contrary note though, you couldn’t really trust Judas now, could you? :roll_eyes:
 
Curious11 said:
And about why that standard is acceptable
Click to expand...
You’ve listed a standard for a scientific theory. We aren’t discussing a scientific theory, but rather a theological assertion. Therefore, your standard for proof is not applicable. It’s like asking us to prove a mathematical theorem with a thermometer. 😉
Curious11 said:
eternity in hell is at stake. So you better be damn sure of what you’re talking about.
Click to expand...
Absolutely! 👍

Aaaaand… we are. We’re looking at the Word of God, asserted and confirmed by the Son of God. That’s a reliable standard of evidence. 😉
Curious11 said:
No religion is,

which makes a pretty strong case that God is either non-existent or doesn’t deserve a moment of worship
Click to expand...
An illogical claim, followed up with a non sequitur. You win the prize! 🎁
 
Someone mentioned other religious leaders from different religions. This is a 2nd part of my question I would like to bring up.

There have been alot of “enlightened” people from Eastern religions who claim to be omniscient. Some of these alleged “omniscient” people will claim that Jesus taught Eastern dogmas like “we are all one, the God is within us, etc.”

But the Apostles would say otherwise.

But if you put the two up against each other we have an “omniscient” person (guru) claiming what Jesus really taught and a group of people who know a lot, but are not omniscient (Apostles) claiming what Jesus taught.

How can we trust the word of the non-omniscient source (Apostles) over the “omniscient” source (guru)?
 
Gorgias said:
We’re looking at the Word of God, asserted and confirmed by the Son of God. That’s a reliable standard of evidence
Click to expand...
It’s reliable if you can prove it’s from God. You can’t. You can make arguments, but they’re not the only possible true arguments. It’s inconclusive.
Gorgias said:
An illogical claim
Click to expand...
Yeah yours aren’t. Yours are grounded.
Gorgias said:
You’ve listed a standard for a scientific theory. We aren’t discussing a scientific theory, but rather a theological assertion. Therefore, your standard for proof is not applicable
Click to expand...
That’s a pretty usual excuse and cop-out. But no standard of proof is applicable: scientific, philosophical, or anything. There is nothing you can do to prove beyond a doubt that God exists. You can make claims and feel pretty good about yourself, you can appeal to relativism to justify your unrelative religion like most Christians do, You can keep using the winking emoji and make jokes attempting to mock critics and run them down, but you’re just reassuring yourself of what you already believe. You’re starting from asserting something and then telling people to prove you otherwise, except when they try to do it you come up with some clever excuse of why it doesn’t apply, and then justify everything that happens as “God works in mysterious ways”. You create a being that cannot ever be proven or debunked and then live as if you’re absolutely certain it’s true, when you would never even conceive of accepting anything else as truth so quickly.
 
Last edited:
Their failings make them ore relate-able actually.
Pattern your life after their changed lives and believe.
 
Well:
  1. Jesus said and did things that clearly showed he was God
  2. These events are extremely well documented through the Gospels
  3. These events are largely confirmed by non-Christian historical sources (Tacitus, Josephus, Jewish Talmud, etc)
There’s some evidence for you. Your agnostic position is not nearly as enlightened as you think; if it was, would there be 2 Billion Christians getting ready to celebrate Easter next week?
 
Last edited:
Confirmed? No way on earth is that, by any measure of the word, confirmation. If it was, you’d think Jospehus would become a Christian, how is it this guy you’re using as confirmation didn’t become a Christian?

Appealing to the fact that 2 billion people share your opinion is not proof it’s true. There’s many millions of communists in the world, does that make Marx right? Or any other religion with millions of followers. Islam is the fastest growing religion, I believe, are they right because of it?
 
Jesus chose the apostles They were with Him during His ministry. He was teaching them so they could pass it down. What they saw with their eyes and heard with their ears. They were human, like you and I they faltered, especially when they arrested our Savior and when they crucified Him. Yes, they were afraid. Did Jesus turn away from them when he rose on Easter ? They went out into the world and let people know about Jesus and His teachings. He was the Massiah. They all died for spreading the Truth… Do I trust them, how could I not…God bless you…🦋🦋🦋
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top