Can we try this again?

[Julia1996]

Being free from mortal sin is an entirely different claim than the one he or she was responding to.

Oh. I’m sorry. I must have misunderstood that post.

 

[Julia1996]

Do you remember being eight years old? Do you not remember doing things specifically to drive your mother crazy - like taking things that she has told you not to touch?

I do remember being eight years old. And I remember taking a cookie. More than one cookie actually. And I remember thinking that it wasn’t stealing because the cookies belonged to my family and therefore also to me.

And I remember doing things that drove my mother crazy, but at the time, I didn’t see what was wrong with it. Because somehow, my eight-year-old logic made me believe that under certain circumstances, what my mother said didn’t count.

 

[Julia1996]

If your mother has explicitly told you not to take the cookie and you take it anyway, the connection shouldn’t be that difficult to make. Even for an 8 year old.

After the first time, the hypothetical 8 year old will be quite aware of the nature of his actions, well at least in my house.

Chuck

In that case, I must have been an abnormal 8 year old. Because I believed that what my mother said didn’t apply to that particular cookie, at that particular time. I can’t remember why anymore, but at that time, it made sense to me. Or maybe my mind was just making excuses???

 

[Julia1996]

No problem. I’m being misunderstood all over the place lately. I’m beginning.to think the problem might be me.

Naaaah.

I think the problem is that it is so much harder to understand what people are saying when messages are typed. Without vocal cues, you can’t tell what the person is feeling or if they are being sarcastic. I seem to be misunderstanding people left, right and center. On the other hand, that might just be me.

 

[clmowry]

In that case, I must have been an abnormal 8 year old. Because I believed that what my mother said didn’t apply to that particular cookie, at that particular time. I can’t remember why anymore, but at that time, it made sense to me. Or maybe my mind was just making excuses???

Or you were just a typical 8 year old.

I’m pretty sure I’ve been 40 since I was 6, so I’ve got a biased perspective.

Chuck

 

[jmcrae]

Precepts of the Catholic Church apply to Catholics. Not to non-Catholic Christians.

This is in fact why, in the Rite, it is recommended that they make a Profession of Faith prior to attending the Sacrament of Reconciliation, because once they’ve done that, they are Catholic, though not yet Confirmed, and have not yet received their First Holy Communion.

At the Rite of Welcoming to Continuing Conversion, their priest receives the authority from the Bishop to hear their Confessions, and afterward to give them the Sacraments of Initiation.

But you would not want them to receive the Sacraments of Initiation while in a state of mortal sin, would you? Because this would pile sacrilege on top of sin, instead of grace upon grace.

 

[Philthy]

Sorry. I should have been clearer in my response.

I don’t think stealing a cookie is worse than taking an innocent life. It is breaking 2 commandments at once, but on a lesser degree. Stealing something so small cannot possibly be compared to killing someone.

You mean if you dont have a preconceived agenda that you could never compare them, right? But stick around and you’ll see some attempting to argue that “the wages of sin is death” and that any and all sin separates us from God. Once you intellectually paint yourself into a box it is easy to miss something so obvious: there are degrees of sin. Its like they just conveniently forgot all the OT consequences for the various trespasses that God established: different penalties for different sins.

Blessings on your upcoming entry into the Church!

 

[rinnie]

Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.

I never heard the CC say that. I only heard the Pope say that if you have full knowledge of the Catholic faith and choose to turn your back on the teachings of the Church that your soul is in grave danger. I never ever heard the Pope or the Church ever pass judgement on any human being.

The RCC has always taught that we will be Judged by Christ on the last day.

Now I have heard the Pope state that there is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church. But we as Roman Catholics know that the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ. So what he is saying is there is no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

And also we are taught you are not held to something that has not been revealed to you. Now how can you say that the truth has been revealed to you and you accepted the truth in the CC and then turn around and say that you do not believe it is the truth? This makes no sense. Either the truth has been revealed to you or it hasn;t. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[rinnie]

An 8 year old might be able to commit a mortal sin. But can an 8 year old really equate taking a cookie to stealing? And its even harder to make the connection from taking the cookie to breaking the 4th commandment.

Julia I do not believe a 8 year old could commit a mortal sin. You have to be at the age of reason to commit a mortal sin. I am not sure thought what that age actually is.

But a Mortal sin is when you know that you are breaking a commandment of God and in your right mind you choose to walk away from God and commit the sin anyway. You are choosing the sin over God.

Now if say you are older and you say I know that I am going to steal that cookie because I know that it is a sin to steal and I am going to do it because I want to sin against God. Then it could be mortal. See what I am saying. It is not the act always, it is the mind and reason for commiting the act.

That is why Mortal sin for one, could possibly not be mortal for another. And that is why God knows the difference, because God knows our hearts and mind.

 

[jmcrae]

Julia I do not believe a 8 year old could commit a mortal sin. You have to be at the age of reason to commit a mortal sin. I am not sure thought what that age actually is.

As soon as the child can do arithmetic (not merely count, but actually figure out on his own that two things, plus three things, make five things, or when he can look at a pile of change and calculate accurately how much money is there), he has reached the age of reason. For most kids that’s probably at some point between 4 and 7 years of age.

 

[Julia1996]

You mean if you dont have a preconceived agenda that you could never compare them, right? But stick around and you’ll see some attempting to argue that “the wages of sin is death” and that any and all sin separates us from God. Once you intellectually paint yourself into a box it is easy to miss something so obvious: there are degrees of sin. Its like they just conveniently forgot all the OT consequences for the various trespasses that God established: different penalties for different sins.

Most people die, that’s a fact. There is Jesus, there is the Blessed Virgin Mary, then there is the Enoch of Genesis 5:24 who walked with God. But apart from those, I don’t think that there are that many people who didn’t die. Because there aren’t that many people who didn’t sin. So yes, the wages of sin is death, and your hypothetical 8 year old will probably die, but what we are dealing with here, is whether he will go to hell.

And I don’t think that anyone here has the right to judge this 8 year old. I am sure that many of us did much more than stealing a cookie.
Blessings on your upcoming entry into the Church!

 

[rinnie]

But where in the RCIA is this required? That was my question.

In RCIA, just like we had to I believe in 2nd grade, have to go to confession before going to Communion. The reason for this is in the bible.

First Jesus calls us to Conversion (Baptism)

Right after Conversion we are told to Repent. Confession.

That is why it is second,

Jesus call us to Conversion then Repentance.

St Ambrose says The water of Baptism and the tears of repentance.

No matter if you are in mortal sin or venial sin, you must repent before you receive your first Eucharist in the CC.

Also just because you are not in mortal sin does not mean you must not go to confession.We must confess at least once a year. (actually should alot more).

It is just if you are in Mortal Sin it is forbidden to receive the Eucharist.

 

[rinnie]

As soon as the child can do arithmetic (not merely count, but actually figure out on his own that two things, plus three things, make five things, or when he can look at a pile of change and calculate accurately how much money is there), he has reached the age of reason. For most kids that’s probably at some point between 4 and 7 years of age.

Yes I guess you are right. If you can figure out math you can know right from wrong. Wow I forgot it was that young!

And it would have to be around 2nd grade because thats when they make their communion. And I was 6 years old then. And I can remember going for my first confession, and I knew what a sin was then. It still amazes me how like then when it comes time to confess I become so good! Isn’t it funny how when it comes time to confess we forget what to say sometimes. I remember I asked my Mother how to do a good confession. I remember she said go back and remember the day I was like huh? She said yes!

Say Father I got up and started picking on my brother, When my Mother asked me to take out the garbage I pretended not to hear her…

 

[Julia1996]

Julia I do not believe a 8 year old could commit a mortal sin. You have to be at the age of reason to commit a mortal sin. I am not sure thought what that age actually is.

By definition, it would be POSSIBLE for an 8 year old to commit a mortal sin. I don’t agree with this definition, but who am I to say its wrong.

But a Mortal sin is when you know that you are breaking a commandment of God and in your right mind you choose to walk away from God and commit the sin anyway. You are choosing the sin over God.

Yes. That would be the case. Which is why I don’t think that 8 year olds can really commit a mortal sin.

Now if say you are older and you say I know that I am going to steal that cookie because I know that it is a sin to steal and I am going to do it because I want to sin against God. Then it could be mortal. See what I am saying. It is not the act always, it is the mind and reason for commiting the act.

But I think that even if the person had a perfectly innocent reason for taking the cookie, but knew that it was a sin, it isn’t all that different from taking the cookie just to sin. Because ultimately, you are choosing wrong over right.

That is why Mortal sin for one, could possibly not be mortal for another. And that is why God knows the difference, because God knows our hearts and mind.

Maybe that is why we are not supposed to judge each other…We have no way of knowing why other people do things.

 

[diggerdomer]

The precepts of the Catholic Church would of course apply to those entering the Catholic Church.

I must be missing your point.

Members of my wife’s RCIA class were required to go to confession (unless they were also being baptized) as part of the process.

Chuck

No, precepts of the Catholic Church would not “of course” apply to non-Catholics. Precepts of the Catholic Church apply to Catholics.

Again, where in the Rite of the Church are non-Catholics required to go to confession prior to initiation into the Catholic Church?

I mean, if this really is a requirement, where does the Church state such? Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

In RCIA, just like we had to I believe in 2nd grade, have to go to confession before going to Communion. The reason for this is in the bible.

First Jesus calls us to Conversion (Baptism)

Right after Conversion we are told to Repent. Confession.

That is why it is second,

Jesus call us to Conversion then Repentance.

St Ambrose says The water of Baptism and the tears of repentance.

No matter if you are in mortal sin or venial sin, you must repent before you receive your first Eucharist in the CC.

Also just because you are not in mortal sin does not mean you must not go to confession.We must confess at least once a year. (actually should alot more).

It is just if you are in Mortal Sin it is forbidden to receive the Eucharist.

You didn’t answer my question.

Where in the Rite (RCIA) is such required? Try again? Thanks.

As you note, Baptism forgives sins, so of course Reconciliation is not required prior to Baptism (and, canonically and theologically, not possible, sacramentally, according to the Catholic Church, as Baptism is the “gateway” for all other sacraments).

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I think probably it is not required so much as strongly encouraged. Is that your point?

 

[jmcrae]

No, precepts of the Catholic Church would not “of course” apply to non-Catholics. Precepts of the Catholic Church apply to Catholics.

After the Rite of Welcome (which usually takes place in Advent) they are no longer completely “non-Catholics.” They acquire certain rights in the Church at that time, including, in the event of their death, to receive the Last Rites and to be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

They acquire more rights in the Church at the Rite of Calling to Full Communion (usually in the first week of Lent) including the right to make their First Confession, and the right to receive their other two Sacraments of Initiation.

Again, where in the Rite of the Church are non-Catholics required to go to confession prior to initiation into the Catholic Church?

As mentioned before it is strongly recommended in the Rite. Obviously, if they have been completely without sin since the time of baptism, they don’t need to go - but this isn’t very common.

No baptized person should be going to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin. Ever.

 

[diggerdomer]

After the Rite of Welcome (which usually takes place in Advent) they are no longer completely “non-Catholics.” They acquire certain rights in the Church at that time, including, in the event of their death, to receive the Last Rites and to be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

They acquire more rights in the Church at the Rite of Calling to Full Communion (usually in the first week of Lent) including the right to make their First Confession, and the right to receive their other two Sacraments of Initiation.

As mentioned before it is strongly recommended in the Rite. Obviously, if they have been completely without sin since the time of baptism, they don’t need to go - but this isn’t very common.

No baptized person should be going to their Confirmation and First Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin. Ever.

Recommended. Exactly. Thanks for confirming my thought.

Also, the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist) are just that… initiation. The sacrament of Reconciliation applies after one is initiated.

 

[jmcrae]

Recommended. Exactly. Thanks for confirming my thought.

Also, the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist) are just that… initiation. The sacrament of Reconciliation applies after one is initiated.

Baptism is the first Sacrament of Initiation, so they are already partially initiated as soon as they express the intention of becoming Catholic, even before the Rite of Welcome (although it is not recommended that they start going to Confession that early in their journey). Our discussion is about baptized Inquirers only; obviously, the non-baptized can’t go to Confession before being baptized.

You should note that even after full initiation, the Sacrament of Reconciliation still remains at the same level of “recommended.” You can never force anyone or require anyone to go to Confession - ever. Even in the Precepts of the Church, it is only “strongly recommended” that we attend at least once a year - it cannot ever be “required.”