Can we try this again?

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Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
 
Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
When the Catholic Church ‘defines’ mortal sin is not the Catholic Church acting ‘apart from God.’ IOW, It is GOD who has defined mortal sin and (through the Holy Spirit) the Church which is passing on God’s teachings.

It is not a question of ‘ahead of time’ any more than if I tell you that if you drop an apple it’s going to fall is me co-opting the function of gravity to myself.

If you walk toward a cliff and I tell you, Stop or you’ll fall–am I (an individual) saying ahead of time that God will ‘let you’ drop off the cliff as though I’m suddenly taking the rules ‘away’ from God? Is it MY voice that stops you, or your feet coming to a screeching halt? If you continue on despite my warning, am I to blame that you wouldn’t listen? Was there any ‘way’ that you ‘would have listened?’ Did you in your heart of hearts think, “if this was REALLY God speaking, she would SING the warning, but she isn’t singing and so I’ll just keep on walking?” Am I to blame that your ‘conception’ of a ‘truthful or Godlike warning’ was different than my calling out a warning?

It is not, not, not a question of “Catholic belief” as though "Catholic belief’ is something totally different from what God says.

God has laws and He (and we) should obey them, yes? If God has a law that evil cannot exist in heaven, then He isn’t going to break His own law, is He? If a person refuses to accept God and rejects God (which is evil), then it doesn’t matter whether I say, "refusal to accept God will result in the person’s damning himself to hell’ because I’m not the one damning the person, I’m not making the decision, it isn’t because of my ‘determination’ that a person who rejects God damns himself. GOD SAID IT, I’m SIMPLY REPEATING WHAT GOD SAYS.

God says if we love Him and accept Him and DO NOT REJECT HIM, we will be with Him. How come you aren’t upset with me for making a ‘positive’ statement about how people who accept God will wind up in heaven? It’s just as ‘determining’ a statement, isn’t it???
 
When the Catholic Church ‘defines’ mortal sin is not the Catholic Church acting ‘apart from God.’ IOW, It is GOD who has defined mortal sin and (through the Holy Spirit) the Church which is passing on God’s teachings.

It is not a question of ‘ahead of time’ any more than if I tell you that if you drop an apple it’s going to fall is me co-opting the function of gravity to myself.

If you walk toward a cliff and I tell you, Stop or you’ll fall–am I (an individual) saying ahead of time that God will ‘let you’ drop off the cliff as though I’m suddenly taking the rules ‘away’ from God? Is it MY voice that stops you, or your feet coming to a screeching halt? If you continue on despite my warning, am I to blame that you wouldn’t listen? Was there any ‘way’ that you ‘would have listened?’ Did you in your heart of hearts think, “if this was REALLY God speaking, she would SING the warning, but she isn’t singing and so I’ll just keep on walking?” Am I to blame that your ‘conception’ of a ‘truthful or Godlike warning’ was different than my calling out a warning?

It is not, not, not a question of “Catholic belief” as though "Catholic belief’ is something totally different from what God says.

God has laws and He (and we) should obey them, yes? If God has a law that evil cannot exist in heaven, then He isn’t going to break His own law, is He? If a person refuses to accept God and rejects God (which is evil), then it doesn’t matter whether I say, "refusal to accept God will result in the person’s damning himself to hell’ because I’m not the one damning the person, I’m not making the decision, it isn’t because of my ‘determination’ that a person who rejects God damns himself. GOD SAID IT, I’m SIMPLY REPEATING WHAT GOD SAYS.

God says if we love Him and accept Him and DO NOT REJECT HIM, we will be with Him. How come you aren’t upset with me for making a ‘positive’ statement about how people who accept God will wind up in heaven? It’s just as ‘determining’ a statement, isn’t it???
Tantum, I’m not at all upset with you my friend. I don’t understand though if a person once believed everything and still understands it all, but no longer with a good sincere conscience believes everything, how such a person can not be saved? They simply no longer believe everything the CC says. They had a change of heart in their beliefs. Prayed strongly. Remained informed of what the CC teaches. But in the end in good conscience simply could not accept everything. But I thank you for your honest view.
 
Tantum, I’m not at all upset with you my friend. Ditto. I’m not upset, I just want to help you understand. I don’t understand though if a person once believed everything and still understands it all, but no longer with a good sincere conscience believes everything, how such a person can not be saved? Well, let’s try it this way. Suppose you once believed in gravity. You understood it, you believed it, but then you really, truly, sincerely came to disbelieve. Now-- you walk off a cliff. Are you going to do anything but fall? No. . .because no matter how sincerely you might THINK you were right, you would be wrong. Truth is truth, and it doesn’t become non-truth just because a bunch of sweet and sincere people refuse to accept it. They simply no longer believe everything the CC says. But you see, you aren’t talking about the Catholic Church as though the Catholic Church teaches some things which are ‘different from’ what God teaches. It’s not a question of ‘God OR the Church’, and if I ‘reject’ the Church, well, hey, I’m still ‘ok with God.’ It is “God AND the Church”. They had a change of heart in their beliefs. Prayed strongly. Remained informed of what the CC teaches. But in the end in good conscience simply could not accept everything. But I thank you for your honest view.
A good conscience is an informed conscience which accepts the truth. A person may THINK he has a good conscience but if he rejects truth, his conscience is not ‘good’. It is flawed, it is false.

Because Catholic Teachings ARE Truth, rejection of those teachings is exactly the same as rejecting it directly from God Himself. THAT’S the reason that they damn themselves. They don’t damn themselves because they reject some ‘man-made Church teachings’. . .they are rejecting God’s teachings. . .and in doing so, rejecting God.

From what you and others were posting, we aren’t talking about somebody who didn’t understand in the first place and accept the teachings as truth, you’re talking about somebody who knows Scripture, who knows the catechism, who has the intelligence and who HAD the gift of FAITH but who is ‘tempted’ by a belief which ‘weakens’ his faith to the point that he likes the other belief ‘better’ and rejects his first belief; he embraces the false belief over the true one, he REJECTS the true in favor of the false.

This isn’t a ‘petty little thing.’

Can you imagine walking up to Jesus and saying, Well yes Lord, I know what you said in Scripture, I know what the Church taught, I understand that as a Catholic I had the obligation to accept this as truth, but gee, Lord, I personally thought that you SHOULD HAVE said and taught this other thing because I personally like it better. And so, I rejected what you said and what the Church taught, but my conscience is clear because if I REALLY believed the other thing was true, that made it true. I really believed the Church was wrong, so that made it wrong. Now let me in please because you cannot FAULT ME for REJECTING YOU, because I thought I was ENTITLED to reject anything and everything the Church said that I didn’t ‘agree with’ and my conscience is absolutely supreme and so you can’t say I was 'wrong."
 
Sigh. Ok Tantum I understand what you’re saying. But gravity is something that can be proven by dropping the apple. We are talking about matters of faith and belief here. And I don’t think anyone is talking about just believing something on a whim because they like it better or feel entitled to. But if you want to believe such people are going to hell, that’s fine. God bless you and peace.
 
Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
No, the Church is not saying what you question. See the Catechism para 846-848.
 
No, the Church is not saying what you question. See the Catechism para 846-848.
It’s this part of 846 that bugs me.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This is where my scenerio comes in. Someone who knows and once believed all the Church teaches, still Christian but who had a change in beliefs and doesn’t remain.

I get various answers. Some say as you. Others say the person can not be saved without repenting what they don’t believe and will be judged to hell. But thank you and God bless you. Peace.
 
It’s this part of 846 that bugs me.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This is where my scenerio comes in. Someone who knows and once believed all the Church teaches, still Christian but who had a change in beliefs and doesn’t remain
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Matt, when the passage says ‘could not’, the passage is not saying, "It is the man-made judgment of the Catholic Church that person X who ‘changed beliefs with a ‘sincere heart’ is going to hell.’

It is saying a person who knew that the Church’s teachings were true and that was the ONE Church of Christ and yet refused to remain in that Church, was by God’s own judgment (unless of course that person repented) on the fast track to rejection of Him.

Take John, a Catholic who ‘knows’ his faith, accepts it as true, then is ‘blindsided’ due to various circumstances and ‘honestly’ comes to believe in the SDA, for example, and leaves the Catholic Church. Now, John ‘rejected’ the Catholic Church because the SDA told him it was wrong. John now does not believe the Catholic Church is the true Church. So-- It is entirely possible that even though John ‘left’ Catholicism for SDA, he may still be saved, because John did not and still does not realize that Catholicism was True. Instead, he thinks SDA is true.

Now take James, a Catholic who ‘knows’ his faith, accepts it as true, and then later after he marries, divorces, and then wants to remarry another, finds himself upset by Catholic teachings on the subject of marriage. So James decides to join the Episcopal church because he likes their teachings on that subject ‘better.’ James does not think the Episcopal Church is the "One True Church.’ James KNOWS that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. On everything, even the marriage’ question, James absolutely agrees with the Catholic Church. But because he personally does not wish to submit to the Church’s authority in the area of sex and marriage, he joins the local Episcopal Church and refuses to ‘stay’ the Catholic Church, so that he can marry after being divorced without going through the ‘fuss and bother’ of seeking a decree of nullity.

Now James is in a much more perilous position because James knows the truth of the Church and accepts it but because he doesn’t want to have to ‘fuss and bother’, decides to go to a church that won’t ‘make’ him fuss.

I think that you are confused by the ‘sincere change of beliefs’ addition you have made. **Notice that the Catechism does not say anything about that. **

You can be sincerely wrong. . .but your culpability is lessened if you did not truly know the truth to begin with.

If John changed his mind because he was honestly ‘convinced’ (even though the ‘facts’ he was convinced by ultimately turned out to be false), then he doesn’t think that the Catholic Church IS the True Church, right?

And if JAMES never really changed his mind over the truth of the church but didn’t want to abide by one particular area and so left the church for another church that didn’t ‘fuss’. . .James DOES know and even accept the Church as true but refuses to ‘remain’ in the Church.

John (the now SDA who rejects the Church) does not now accept the Church as being ‘true’. Even though he was once Catholic, he is not necessarily ‘doomed.’

But James is a different story. James DOES accept the Church as being true even on the point where he has ‘left’, but James refuses to abide and goes off to a church where he can ‘have what he wants’ even though he doesn’t accept THAT church as being the true Church. That isn’t a ‘sincere change of beliefs’ Matt, that is what the whole thing about ‘knowing the truth and REJECTING IT’ is. . .very different from 'knowing the truth but somehow making a wrong judgment and then thinking that truth wasn’t really the truth after all.

Suppose I think that Comcast is the very best cable provider anywhere. But somebody comes by and tells me that Comcast is a satanic group and so, alarmed, I switch to Verizon. Later I find out that Comcast is not satanic. I was given wrong information and based on that wrong information I rejected having Comcast. If I had not been given that wrong information I would have stayed with Comcast. When I find out the truth, I go back to Comcast.

Suppose my neighbor thinks that Comcast is the very best cable provider anywhere, but he is approached by Verizon because they want to infiltrate the area. My neighbor, fully knowing that Comcast is best, but working for Verizon for the money they offer, goes around telling his neighbors that Comcast is a satanic group, and winds up getting a lot of them to switch to Verizon. He himself at all times knows that he is telling lies about Comcast and he never at any time thinks Verizon is better, but he has Verizon because it offers him a good ‘money’ deal.

The first scenario is your person who ‘sincerely changes’ his mind, Matt. At any point until death this person may find that he has ‘erred’ and since this person genuinely is seeking truth, this person may be saved.

The second scenario is what the CHURCH is talking about in the catechism passage that worries you, Matt. The second person is the one who KNOWINGLY rejects. The first person (and your 'sincere persons) do not necessarily KNOWINGLY reject the Truth. Only the second person who knows the truth yet rejects it for some sort of other ‘gain’ is doomed (unless he repents).
 
It’s this part of 846 that bugs me.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This is where my scenerio comes in. Someone who knows and once believed all the Church teaches, still Christian but who had a change in beliefs and doesn’t remain.

I get various answers. Some say as you. Others say the person can not be saved without repenting what they don’t believe and will be judged to hell. But thank you and God bless you. Peace.
The answer is that any Catholic who rejects one or more of the Church teachings is committing heresy and is in a state of mortal sin. If such person dies unrepentent then that person is not saved.
 
.

Matt, when the passage says ‘could not’, the passage is not saying, "It is the man-made judgment of the Catholic Church that person X who ‘changed beliefs with a ‘sincere heart’ is going to hell.’

It is saying a person who knew that the Church’s teachings were true and that was the ONE Church of Christ and yet refused to remain in that Church, was by God’s own judgment (unless of course that person repented) on the fast track to rejection of Him.

Take John, a Catholic who ‘knows’ his faith, accepts it as true, then is ‘blindsided’ due to various circumstances and ‘honestly’ comes to believe in the SDA, for example, and leaves the Catholic Church. Now, John ‘rejected’ the Catholic Church because the SDA told him it was wrong. John now does not believe the Catholic Church is the true Church. So-- It is entirely possible that even though John ‘left’ Catholicism for SDA, he may still be saved, because John did not and still does not realize that Catholicism was True. Instead, he thinks SDA is true.

Now take James, a Catholic who ‘knows’ his faith, accepts it as true, and then later after he marries, divorces, and then wants to remarry another, finds himself upset by Catholic teachings on the subject of marriage. So James decides to join the Episcopal church because he likes their teachings on that subject ‘better.’ James does not think the Episcopal Church is the "One True Church.’ James KNOWS that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. On everything, even the marriage’ question, James absolutely agrees with the Catholic Church. But because he personally does not wish to submit to the Church’s authority in the area of sex and marriage, he joins the local Episcopal Church and refuses to ‘stay’ the Catholic Church, so that he can marry after being divorced without going through the ‘fuss and bother’ of seeking a decree of nullity.

Now James is in a much more perilous position because James knows the truth of the Church and accepts it but because he doesn’t want to have to ‘fuss and bother’, decides to go to a church that won’t ‘make’ him fuss.

I think that you are confused by the ‘sincere change of beliefs’ addition you have made. **Notice that the Catechism does not say anything about that. **

You can be sincerely wrong. . .but your culpability is lessened if you did not truly know the truth to begin with.

If John changed his mind because he was honestly ‘convinced’ (even though the ‘facts’ he was convinced by ultimately turned out to be false), then he doesn’t think that the Catholic Church IS the True Church, right?

And if JAMES never really changed his mind over the truth of the church but didn’t want to abide by one particular area and so left the church for another church that didn’t ‘fuss’. . .James DOES know and even accept the Church as true but refuses to ‘remain’ in the Church.

John (the now SDA who rejects the Church) does not now accept the Church as being ‘true’. Even though he was once Catholic, he is not necessarily ‘doomed.’

But James is a different story. James DOES accept the Church as being true even on the point where he has ‘left’, but James refuses to abide and goes off to a church where he can ‘have what he wants’ even though he doesn’t accept THAT church as being the true Church. That isn’t a ‘sincere change of beliefs’ Matt, that is what the whole thing about ‘knowing the truth and REJECTING IT’ is. . .very different from 'knowing the truth but somehow making a wrong judgment and then thinking that truth wasn’t really the truth after all.

Suppose I think that Comcast is the very best cable provider anywhere. But somebody comes by and tells me that Comcast is a satanic group and so, alarmed, I switch to Verizon. Later I find out that Comcast is not satanic. I was given wrong information and based on that wrong information I rejected having Comcast. If I had not been given that wrong information I would have stayed with Comcast. When I find out the truth, I go back to Comcast.

Suppose my neighbor thinks that Comcast is the very best cable provider anywhere, but he is approached by Verizon because they want to infiltrate the area. My neighbor, fully knowing that Comcast is best, but working for Verizon for the money they offer, goes around telling his neighbors that Comcast is a satanic group, and winds up getting a lot of them to switch to Verizon. He himself at all times knows that he is telling lies about Comcast and he never at any time thinks Verizon is better, but he has Verizon because it offers him a good ‘money’ deal.

The first scenario is your person who ‘sincerely changes’ his mind, Matt. At any point until death this person may find that he has ‘erred’ and since this person genuinely is seeking truth, this person may be saved.

The second scenario is what the CHURCH is talking about in the catechism passage that worries you, Matt. The second person is the one who KNOWINGLY rejects. The first person (and your 'sincere persons) do not necessarily KNOWINGLY reject the Truth. Only the second person who knows the truth yet rejects it for some sort of other ‘gain’ is doomed (unless he repents).
Tantum! The case of John in your illustration is what I am talking about. So unless you come up with something else we are in agreement John can be saved? Although I’m not sure what you mean by John having accepted the Church as true but then later you go on and say John did not and still does not. And just to be clear before I get overly excited and we rejoice together, John can be saved even if he doesn’t return, right?

If so, then Tantum, rejoice!
 
The answer is that any Catholic who rejects one or more of the Church teachings is committing heresy and is in a state of mortal sin. If such person dies unrepentent then that person is not saved.
Thank you for your answer. Again proving my point of various ones. God bless and peace.
 
Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
I have not read the other replies but I stand on firm ground when I say in an un hem and hawing manner. No those people cannot be saved.

Annie
 
I have not read the other replies but I stand on firm ground when I say in an un hem and hawing manner. No those people cannot be saved.

Annie
Annie, thank you for your view and direct answer. 👍
 
Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
One also must be careful with “outside the church” since the church’s definition of “outside the church” is different than many Catholics might think.

The Orthodox, for example, are not “outside the church”… in much the same way a palsyed limb isn’t outside the body… it acts upon its own, but is still attached, and still otherwise healthy.
 
One also must be careful with “outside the church” since the church’s definition of “outside the church” is different than many Catholics might think.

The Orthodox, for example, are not “outside the church”… in much the same way a palsyed limb isn’t outside the body… it acts upon its own, but is still attached, and still otherwise healthy.
This is simply not true. The Orthodox Church is not in communion with the Bishop of Rome and is therefore outside the Body of Christ. Bishops who act without the union of the Bishop is illicit just as the SSPX are in schism. Please do not give the argument that their excommunication has been lifted. That would be a long and fruitless discussion.

Annie
 
Without all the hem hawing around the issue… When the Catholic Church defines mortal sin and states such things as if you have full knowledge and understandng of the Catholic Church and do not enter or remain in it, you could not be saved… Which can include I presume folks who still fully understand and once did believe everything but simply no longer do… Is the Church saying then ahead of time what God’s judgment will be toward such people? That they can not be saved without repenting in an acceptable Catholic manner what they do not believe? Yes or no? And if not, how so? As it sure seems like that is what the Church is doing. Thank you and peace and God bless.
The reason is that the Catholic Church (not any other church) is God’s body on earth.

You know that when you are thinking something, you can get your hands to type it out, and your hands can get your computer to send it to us.

In the same way, when God wants to send us a message, His hands that are typing out the message are, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church cannot do anything without God willing it to, just as in the same way your hands can’t act independently of you - if your hands (the Catholic Church) are to type something out, then your mind (God) has to be thinking that thought, and asking your hands (the Church) to type it out.

To be away from God’s body (the Catholic Church) is to be away from God. Can those who are deliberately and purposely away from God, be saved? Only with great difficulty, I think.
 
One also must be careful with “outside the church” since the church’s definition of “outside the church” is different than many Catholics might think.

The Orthodox, for example, are not “outside the church”… in much the same way a palsyed limb isn’t outside the body… it acts upon its own, but is still attached, and still otherwise healthy.
I noticed that you are a member of the Ruthenian Church after I sent my last post. The Ruthenians are Catholic. They are in union with the Bishop of Rome. I attended a Ruthenian Church for a while.

Annie
 
This is simply not true. The Orthodox Church is not in communion with the Bishop of Rome and is therefore outside the Body of Christ. Bishops who act without the union of the Bishop is illicit just as the SSPX are in schism. Please do not give the argument that their excommunication has been lifted. That would be a long and fruitless discussion.

Annie
Orthodox are permitted the sacraments. Check canon law, Annie. I’m serious.

And don’t be coyly impling I’m confusing EC with Orthodox. You openly insult me and yourself with such bull.
 
It’s this part of 846 that bugs me.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

This is where my scenerio comes in. Someone who knows and once believed all the Church teaches, still Christian but who had a change in beliefs and doesn’t remain.

I get various answers. Some say as you. Others say the person can not be saved without repenting what they don’t believe and will be judged to hell. But thank you and God bless you. Peace.
I think the difficulty or tension is whether or not a given individual fully understands and believes the truth of the Catholic Church. Catholic or not, this is an open question, I think, so personally I think we have to be careful before passing judgement.
 
The answer is that any Catholic who rejects one or more of the Church teachings is committing heresy and is in a state of mortal sin. If such person dies unrepentent then that person is not saved.
Not necessarily. They may not have full knowledge, intent, etc.
 
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