Can we try this again?

[MarkInOregon]

I’m confused as well. As you seem to be saying someone can not have full knowledge and understanding and simply reject, not God, but what the Catholic Church proclaims to be. As for myself I suggest nothing in regard to God’s judgement as it depends on how one defines “rejecting Him”. Disagreeing with the CC I’m not certain qualifies.

Yes–that is what I am saying. Rejecting the Church because you don’t believe it does not equate to knowingly rejecting God.

I would posit that we can discuss God’s judgment and what might get us condemned and what qualifies as rejecting him. I think it is very important for us to know this and I think Christ gives us some good indications in the Gospels–after all if we don’t know what gets us condemned how can we avoid it? I think what we can’t know is the fate of anyone individual–there are many unknowns–as to anyones culpability in their sin and we can never know their heart and contrition at the moment of death. I think all we can with regards to any individual is pray for them and trust in God’s mercy–all that said–I think that in no way precludes discussing these matters in the abstract–we can certainly speculate if x then y–we just can’t know if x applies to any particular person.

Peace,
Mark

 

[diggerdomer]

Full knowledge is one of the three conditions required for a mortal sin.
Full understanding is NOT!

Full knowledge simply means a person KNOWS that the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter and that is sufficient to bind a Catholic.
It is then up to that person to make every effort to understand the teaching (assuming they don’t understand the teaching) but the understanding is not necessary for the known teaching to bind that person.

How is knowledge, FULL knowledge, not mere acquaintance or superficial familiarity, in this case, different from understanding? We’re talking mortal sin, here, not something superficial.

As the Catechism teaches: full knowledge and deliberate consent.

 

[Julia1996]

Orthodox are permitted the sacraments. Check canon law, Annie. I’m serious.

And don’t be coyly impling I’m confusing EC with Orthodox. You openly insult me and yourself with such bull.

I apologize for my ignorance, but could you please tell me what EC means.

 

[jmcrae]

I apologize for my ignorance, but could you please tell me what EC means.

“Eastern Catholic.”

 

[Aramis]

I apologize for my ignorance, but could you please tell me what EC means.

Eastern Catholic. Those 22 churches which are in union with Rome, but not actually part of the Roman Church (which comprises a 23rd distinct church in the Union which is the Catholic church).

 

[Julia1996]

Thanks, jmcrae and Aramis.

What is the difference between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic?
What is the Catholic teaching on Salvation? Can Orthodox and Eastern Catholics be saved? What about Protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons?

Do Catholics believe that one must go to confession in order to be saved? Or can one simply repent in their heart and be saved?

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks, jmcrae and Aramis.

What is the difference between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic?

Eastern Catholics use the same Rites as the Orthodox, but Eastern Catholics are in full communion with the Church, whereas the Orthodox are in schism.

What is the Catholic teaching on Salvation? Can Orthodox and Eastern Catholics be saved?

No one here on earth can decide who is saved, or not. Nevertheless, Eastern Catholics, because they are in full communion with the Church, they have access to everything that a person needs, to be able to go to Heaven.

The Orthodox are in schism, but they do have the Sacraments, the Scriptures, and a valid succession of Bishops, along with faith in Christ and a very rich tradition of prayer and Scripture reading.

What about Protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons?

Protestants have faith in Christ, some forms of prayer, two of the Sacraments, and sixty six of the seventy three books of the Bible.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have faith in Christ, a bad translation of sixty six books of the Bible, and some forms of prayer.

Mormon beliefs are very unlike any of what was passed on by the Apostles; however, they do retain sixty six books of the Bible, and they sing Christmas carols, and they could be reached by grace through either of these means.

Do Catholics believe that one must go to confession in order to be saved?

The process of salvation is not simple. What we believe about Confession is that if someone has knowingly committed a serious sin, he or she needs to confess it to a priest in order to be released from the power of that sin, to be able to take up the Christian life again. However, going to Confession is not the only way to be saved. Someone who has never been baptized could be baptized and have all their sins washed away in that way.

Someone who has been baptized and has never committed any sins could receive Holy Communion, pray frequently, read the Bible, go to Mass, and do good things for the poor and for their family members and neighbors, and be saved in that way.

Or can one simply repent in their heart and be saved?

Not all by itself, no. No more than writing a set of blueprints causes a building to exist, or thinking that you need milk causes there to be milk in your fridge.

It’s a first step. Once you have imagined your goal, you then have to take real steps to make your goal become real in your life. Simply imagining it to be so, does not just miraculously make it so.

 

[diggerdomer]

Full knowledge is one of the three conditions required for a mortal sin.
Full understanding is NOT!

Full knowledge simply means a person KNOWS that the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter and that is sufficient to bind a Catholic.
It is then up to that person to make every effort to understand the teaching (assuming they don’t understand the teaching) but the understanding is not necessary for the known teaching to bind that person.

You’re making an unnecessary claim. Full knowledge, full understanding, whatever. They’re the same. What’s your real point?

 

[diggerdomer]

Thanks, jmcrae and Aramis.

What is the difference between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic?
What is the Catholic teaching on Salvation? Can Orthodox and Eastern Catholics be saved? What about Protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons?

Do Catholics believe that one must go to confession in order to be saved? Or can one simply repent in their heart and be saved?

Orthodox Christians do not acknowledge the same governance (juridical) role as Catholics (including, of course, Eastern Catholics). That’s the difference.

All Christians can be saved, and actually, according to Catholic teaching, all people can be saved.

 

[Aramis]

Orthodox Christians do not acknowledge the same governance (juridical) role as Catholics (including, of course, Eastern Catholics). That’s the difference.

All Christians can be saved, and actually, according to Catholic teaching, all people can be saved.

Can be, but not will be.

Some are going to reject Christ even at the judgment… we can’t tell who, but the Church can say certain behaviors are rejections of Christ.

 

[Julia1996]

Orthodox Christians do not acknowledge the same governance (juridical) role as Catholics (including, of course, Eastern Catholics). That’s the difference.

All Christians can be saved, and actually, according to Catholic teaching, all people can be saved.

Then someone who has spent their entire lives in sin and has rejected God up until the moment of their death, but who repents and no longer rejects God can still be saved?

 

[jmcrae]

You’re making an unnecessary claim. Full knowledge, full understanding, whatever. They’re the same. What’s your real point?

I think she is just emphasizing that, having been told what to do, we ought to do as we’ve been told, without standing there arguing with the Church as if we were a ten year old arguing with his mother about the nuances of what it means to “clean up your room.”

An obedient spirit is required of us; not an argumentative spirit.

We aren’t meant to be able to wiggle our way out of culpability for our sins because we didn’t understand all of the science and theology behind the command “don’t use contraception.”

If you understand the meaning of the three words “don’t”, “use”, and “contraception” then you have the full knowledge and understanding that you need, to be able to obey the command. Knowledge of science is not required.

 

[jmcrae]

Then someone who has spent their entire lives in sin and has rejected God up until the moment of their death, but who repents and no longer rejects God can still be saved?

In theory, yes.

Of course, in practice, this is extremely rare. A person who has not taken up the Cross or developed the habit of prayer when he is well is very unlikely to find the strength to do so when he is extremely ill. Someone who hasn’t thought of God since they left home as a teenager is unlikely to suddenly develop a coherent faith, or knowledge of how to repent of his sins (or even the knowledge that he needs to do this) in his last breath.

The experience of the priests I know who visit the dying in hospital tell me that they almost never hear the Confession of a dying person, who hadn’t recently made a previous Confession when they were well. (In other words, they almost never hear a First Confession or a Confession after many years, on someone’s death bed.)

Those who think of calling a priest in their last hours of life are people who were actively practicing their faith even before they got sick or injured.

 

[diggerdomer]

Then someone who has spent their entire lives in sin and has rejected God up until the moment of their death, but who repents and no longer rejects God can still be saved?

Maybe. Only God knows.

 

[diggerdomer]

Can be, but not will be.

Some are going to reject Christ even at the judgment… we can’t tell who, but the Church can say certain behaviors are rejections of Christ.

Yes. That’s why I said “can” and not “will.”

 

[Julia1996]

In theory, yes.

Of course, in practice, this is extremely rare. A person who has not taken up the Cross or developed the habit of prayer when he is well is very unlikely to find the strength to do so when he is extremely ill. Someone who hasn’t thought of God since they left home as a teenager is unlikely to suddenly develop a coherent faith, or knowledge of how to repent of his sins (or even the knowledge that he needs to do this) in his last breath.
Have you heard of this actually happening?
The experience of the priests I know who visit the dying in hospital tell me that they almost never hear the Confession of a dying person, who hadn’t recently made a previous Confession when they were well. (In other words, they almost never hear a First Confession or a Confession after many years, on someone’s death bed.)
Is there something special one has to do for First Confession? Or is it just like any other Confession? If you don’t remember every sin you have committed and thus are not able to confess them all, but do not intentionally leave any sin out during confession, will you still be held to the consequences of the sin? For First Confession, if it would take a long time to list out all the sins that were committed, is it okay to generalize?
Those who think of calling a priest in their last hours of life are people who were actively practicing their faith even before they got sick or injured.
What do people usually say in their last hours of life? What is the intention of the person in calling a priest?

During Confession, can you just say “I have sinned”? I am asking this because some people, especially those confessing their sins for the first time have a lot to confess and might not remember or have time for confessing everything. On the other hand, if you are going to Confession it is obvious that you have sinned.

 

[jmcrae]

During Confession, can you just say “I have sinned”?

No. Normally, you name your sins by kind and number. If it’s been a long time, or if you are an adult making your First Confession, you can “ball park” it - you can say, “I did this sin (name the sin) once a week for ten years,” or “about six times a year from the age of 12 to the age of 25” etc.

Have you heard of this actually happening?

No. Everyone I know who lived as an unbeliever, also died as an unbeliever, and had their funeral in a community hall, rather than in a Church, with no mention being made about God. It was pretty clear that there were no last-minute conversions.

Is there something special one has to do for First Confession?

When you go to RCIA (the program for people who are becoming Catholic) what they do is they walk you through everything that you need to know for your First Confession. Normally, people who are newly entering the Church will have completed the second stage of their RCIA process before going to First Confession. It’s not something that would be required or expected right off the bat.

At the end of the second stage, those who are going through the process of RCIA are present to the Bishop, and he authorizes their priests to be allowed to start giving them the Sacraments, including First Confession for those who have already been baptized before in a different church.

They would then receive their Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, if they had never been baptized, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion) at the end of the third stage - normally, at the Easter Vigil or at some point during the Easter season.

Or is it just like any other Confession? If you don’t remember every sin you have committed and thus are not able to confess them all, but do not intentionally leave any sin out during confession, will you still be held to the consequences of the sin?

First, one of the features of mortal sin is that it is memorable, so it’s unlikely that you would forget. But if you did forget something, it would still be forgiven. If you remember it later, you would just say, “A sin from my past that I forgot to confess is …” at a later Confession.

For First Confession, if it would take a long time to list out all the sins that were committed, is it okay to generalize?

You would name the specific sin, but you wouldn’t have to describe in detail every single incident - you would just say how many times you did it, or how frequently you did it, and then give an example of one time that you did it. For example, if you were a terrible gossip when you were a teenager, you can just say, “I gossiped every day from the time I hit puberty until I was half way through my last year of high school. One time I remember that I told my friends that another friend of ours had done something that really she didn’t do, and she phoned me later that day and told me that she didn’t want to be my friend any more. That was my wake-up call, and I decided at that time that I needed to break this habit. It still took several months before I finally broke the habit, though.”

What do people usually say in their last hours of life? What is the intention of the person in calling a priest?

They want to receive the Last Rites from him, which is their last Confession, the Anointing of the Sick, and their last Holy Communion. This reassures them of God’s love for them, purifies their soul of all sin, and gives them spiritual strength for their final journey to God.

 

[Julia1996]

They want to receive the Last Rites from him, which is their last Confession, the Anointing of the Sick, and their last Holy Communion. This reassures them of God’s love for them, purifies their soul of all sin, and gives them spiritual strength for their final journey to God.
Is it allowed by the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic to change their mind at the last minute and without going through RCIA, receive the Last Rites from a priest? What happens if a person asks for a priest but is unconscious by the time the priest arrives? Can they still receive the Last Rites? What happens in event of a sudden death where the priest cannot be reached in time (eg. a car accident where the person dies immediately)?

Thanks for answering my questions in such a straightforward manner.

 

[jmcrae]

Is it allowed by the Catholic Church for a non-Catholic to change their mind at the last minute and without going through RCIA, receive the Last Rites from a priest?

This is possible. I was told of one time when this seems to have happened, but in that case, the person had a Catholic friend who was very insistent that he should become a Catholic before he died, for the sake of his soul.

When he was in hospital and it was looking like it was the end, she called a priest on his behalf, and he was received into the Church, and received the Last Rites, there in the hospital. He died a few days later. I’m not sure how much of it was his own idea, though, and how much of it was really his friend’s idea. Of course, I pray that it was a genuine conversion, and that even if it was originally her idea, that in the end, he saw the truth of the Catholic faith and made a free decision of his own to become a Catholic.

What happens if a person asks for a priest but is unconscious by the time the priest arrives? Can they still receive the Last Rites?

Yes; the only part that they wouldn’t do would be obviously the Confession, if the person can’t speak. A small drop of the Blood of Christ would be place on his tongue for Holy Communion. Unconscious people have been known to spontaneously make the Sign of the Cross at this time, which shows that even though the mind isn’t functioning, the soul is still active in the body.

What happens in event of a sudden death where the priest cannot be reached in time (eg. a car accident where the person dies immediately)?

In that case, as long as the priest was able to arrive within a certain time period after the official time of death, and because of the fact that we don’t really know at what point the soul really leaves the body, the priest would do an anointing, using the words, “If you are still alive …” so that, if in fact the person is dead, he isn’t actually intending to give a Sacrament to a corpse.

Thanks for answering my questions in such a straightforward manner.

You are most welcome!

 

[diggerdomer]

No. Normally, you name your sins by kind and number. If it’s been a long time, or if you are an adult making your First Confession, you can “ball park” it - you can say, “I did this sin (name the sin) once a week for ten years,” or “about six times a year from the age of 12 to the age of 25” etc.

No. Everyone I know who lived as an unbeliever, also died as an unbeliever, and had their funeral in a community hall, rather than in a Church, with no mention being made about God. It was pretty clear that there were no last-minute conversions.

When you go to RCIA (the program for people who are becoming Catholic) what they do is they walk you through everything that you need to know for your First Confession. Normally, people who are newly entering the Church will have completed the second stage of their RCIA process before going to First Confession. It’s not something that would be required or expected right off the bat.

At the end of the second stage, those who are going through the process of RCIA are present to the Bishop, and he authorizes their priests to be allowed to start giving them the Sacraments, including First Confession for those who have already been baptized before in a different church.

They would then receive their Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, if they had never been baptized, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion) at the end of the third stage - normally, at the Easter Vigil or at some point during the Easter season.

First, one of the features of mortal sin is that it is memorable, so it’s unlikely that you would forget. But if you did forget something, it would still be forgiven. If you remember it later, you would just say, “A sin from my past that I forgot to confess is …” at a later Confession.

You would name the specific sin, but you wouldn’t have to describe in detail every single incident - you would just say how many times you did it, or how frequently you did it, and then give an example of one time that you did it. For example, if you were a terrible gossip when you were a teenager, you can just say, “I gossiped every day from the time I hit puberty until I was half way through my last year of high school. One time I remember that I told my friends that another friend of ours had done something that really she didn’t do, and she phoned me later that day and told me that she didn’t want to be my friend any more. That was my wake-up call, and I decided at that time that I needed to break this habit. It still took several months before I finally broke the habit, though.”

They want to receive the Last Rites from him, which is their last Confession, the Anointing of the Sick, and their last Holy Communion. This reassures them of God’s love for them, purifies their soul of all sin, and gives them spiritual strength for their final journey to God.

The sacrament of Reconciliation is not required prior to baptism.