Can we try this again?

[jmcrae]

I thought the previous post meant that a Latin Rite Liturgy should have at least one part in Latin. Evidently, it is not necessary.

The reason it’s called the “Latin Rite” is that it originates in Rome; not because it’s in Latin.

There are at least two different liturgies for Mass in the Latin Rite - one of them, called the Extraordinary Form, is, in fact, said in Latin. The other, called the Ordinary Form, is said in the language most commonly spoken by the local people living in the parish. If the parish is in Chinatown, then, because most of the people who live in the area speak Chinese, the liturgy would be said in Chinese.

 

[diggerdomer]

It should not simply be fluffed over as if it didn’t matter, though.

They should be taught in more than a cursory “oh, by the way” fashion, how to make a good Examination of Conscience, and what to expect when they go in for Confession. Since First Confessions can’t be recorded, there is no way to know whether they actually take advantage of the information, but despite that fact, the information should still be presented in a coherent and thorough manner, as well as opportunities provided (or at least pointed out) for them to go.

Especially if it has been several years since the person was baptized, there should be encouragement given.

I didn’t say it should be fluffed over as if it didn’t matter. Your response seems to imply things I never said nor implied.

Where do you get the idea anyone on this Thread said the Sacrament of Reconciliation is “cursory” or something considered as “oh by the way”?

Clarify? Thank you.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, I know.

There are people who come into the Church having been baptized validly in their non-Catholic Church - it is these people who go to Confession during the Lenten season (period 3 of the RCIA process) prior to receiving Confirmation and First Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil or at some point during the Easter season.

Those not previously baptized receive Baptism, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil, and don’t make their First Confession until period 4 of the RCIA, some time around Pentecost.

I don’t think the Church requires candidates to go to confession before being received into the full communion of the Catholic Church.

Do you have any reference for such?

Thank you.

 

[Julia1996]

The reason it’s called the “Latin Rite” is that it originates in Rome; not because it’s in Latin.

There are at least two different liturgies for Mass in the Latin Rite - one of them, called the Extraordinary Form, is, in fact, said in Latin. The other, called the Ordinary Form, is said in the language most commonly spoken by the local people living in the parish. If the parish is in Chinatown, then, because most of the people who live in the area speak Chinese, the liturgy would be said in Chinese.

Okay. I understand it better now. I still think that it is a bit ironic that there aren’t any Churches around here that have Latin Mass in Latin. But then there wouldn’t really be any point. Here in Chinatown, nobody speaks Latin.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think the Church requires candidates to go to confession before being received into the full communion of the Catholic Church.

Do you have any reference for such?

Thank you.

Yes, I do:

From the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, published by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, Ottawa, paragraphs 528-530 (under the subheading “Other Rites” which describes the adaptations to be made for uncatechized Catholic adults (that is to say, people baptized into the Catholic faith who never received Confirmation or First Holy Communion), and adults validly baptized in another tradition):

Sacrament of Penance

528 In the early Church, the Sacrament of Penance was regarded as a “second baptism.” St. Ambrose remarked that the Church “possesses both water and tears: the water of baptism, the tears of penance.” (Letter 41:12) In the case of the baptized who have completed a period of formation and are ready to complete their initiation, the sacrament of penance may occupy a place similar to the sacrament of baptism for the elect.

Candidates are encouraged, according to their individual consciences, to make a confession of sins before being received into full communion or completing their initiation.

529 The sacrament of penance may be celebrated according to the Rite of Reconciliation of Several Penitents with Individual Confession and Absolution or according to the Rite of Reconciliation for Individual Penitents. (A helpful outline for the reconciliation of an individual person is given in Sunday Mass Book, pages 1114-1115. Other prayers and suggestions are contained on pages 1107, 1117, and 1309-1316.)

530 It is appropriate for the candidates to recite the creed before or after the sacrament of penance. Likewise, it is appropriate for the candidates to be presented with the lighted baptismal candle after the sacrament of penance. Any other rites associated with baptism (ephphetha rite, anointings, and the reception of the white garment) are to be omitted.

So, while not “required” absolutely, the Church certainly means for them to be strongly encouraged to make a First Confession before approaching the Sacraments of Initiation.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, I do:

From the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, published by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, Ottawa, paragraphs 528-530 (under the subheading “Other Rites” which describes the adaptations to be made for uncatechized Catholic adults (that is to say, people baptized into the Catholic faith who never received Confirmation or First Holy Communion), and adults validly baptized in another tradition):

So, while not “required” absolutely, the Church certainly means for them to be strongly encouraged to make a First Confession before approaching the Sacraments of Initiation.

Thank you. That’s what I thought. Not required.

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you. That’s what I thought. Not required.

Technically, not required.

Most people who go through RCIA have been teenagers at some point in their lives, and would have at least one sin they would need to confess, before they would become able to approach their Confirmation and First Holy Communion in a worthy manner.

 

[Aramis]

Technically, not required.

Most people who go through RCIA have been teenagers at some point in their lives, and would have at least one sin they would need to confess, before they would become able to approach their Confirmation and First Holy Communion in a worthy manner.

Unless they’re being baptized… as baptism washes away ALL prior sins.

 

[jmcrae]

Unless they’re being baptized… as baptism washes away ALL prior sins.

Right. I was responding to a question about people who had been validly baptized previously.

 

[Julia1996]

Right. I was responding to a question about people who had been validly baptized previously.

What constitutes a valid baptism?

 

[clmowry]

What constitutes a valid baptism?

Water and “I baptize thee [you, this person, etc.] in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

The normal form in the Church would be a bit more complicated, but any baptism of the form above would be considered valid.

Of course you can only be baptized once, so a “2nd” baptism would not be valid no matter the form.

I’m sure someone else can provide a more technically precise answer.

Chuck

 

[Julia1996]

Water and “I baptize thee [you, this person, etc.] in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

The normal form in the Church would be a bit more complicated, but any baptism of the form above would be considered valid.

Of course you can only be baptized once, so a “2nd” baptism would not be valid no matter the form.

I’m sure someone else can provide a more technically precise answer.

Chuck

This is fine. A more technically precise answer would be confusing.

What does happen if you had a “2nd” baptism? Would it render the 1st one invalid? Or is it just ignored?

 

[jmcrae]

This is fine. A more technically precise answer would be confusing.

What does happen if you had a “2nd” baptism? Would it render the 1st one invalid? Or is it just ignored?

The second baptism and any subsequent baptism is just ignored. We can only be baptized once, and the first one is the one that “counts.”

So, to give an example, if you were baptized at three days old in a Presbyterian church, and then again at the age of ten in a Baptist church, the Catholic Church would be interested in your baptismal certificate from the Presbyterian church where you were baptized as a baby, and would not concern itself at all with your baptism at the Baptist church.

But if you had never been baptized as a baby, and then you were baptized at the age of ten, or seventeen, or twenty four in the Baptist church, then that’s the one they would be interested in.

 

[Julia1996]

The second baptism and any subsequent baptism is just ignored. We can only be baptized once, and the first one is the one that “counts.”

So, to give an example, if you were baptized at three days old in a Presbyterian church, and then again at the age of ten in a Baptist church, the Catholic Church would be interested in your baptismal certificate from the Presbyterian church where you were baptized as a baby, and would not concern itself at all with your baptism at the Baptist church.

But if you had never been baptized as a baby, and then you were baptized at the age of ten, or seventeen, or twenty four in the Baptist church, then that’s the one they would be interested in.

Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic. Interestingly enough, your example is fairly similar to my life. The only difference is that I was baptized in a Methodist, not Presbyterian church. I was worried that there was some sort of penalty for being baptized twice, thanks for clearing up the issue.

Your signature line says:
According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman’s opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God’s.

I don’t quite understand what this means. Could you please explain it to me.

Going back to the original topic. Baptism washes away ALL prior sins. Can confession wash away ALL confessed sins? Someone told me that blasphemy couldn’t be washed away. Must someone be sinless before Confirmation? Or just for Communion? If someone confesses their sins in a non-Catholic Church, is the absolution considered valid?

 

[jmcrae]

Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic. Interestingly enough, your example is fairly similar to my life. The only difference is that I was baptized in a Methodist, not Presbyterian church. I was worried that there was some sort of penalty for being baptized twice, thanks for clearing up the issue.

You’re welcome.

Your signature line says:
According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman’s opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God’s.

I don’t quite understand what this means. Could you please explain it to me.

I will send you a private message about this, since it’s very off topic for this thread.

Going back to the original topic. Baptism washes away ALL prior sins.

Yes.

Can confession wash away ALL confessed sins?

Yes - assuming that all confessed sins are in fact all of the sins that you need to confess. If you hold something back, then not only is the one sin not confessed, not forgiven, but none of the sins of that confession are forgiven. We must be careful to include all of the sins that we can remember, in our confession, in order to make a good confession.

God doesn’t expect us to do more than is possible, however, and if you honestly forget something, then the forgotten thing is also forgiven - but it would be bad to hold anything back on purpose.

Someone told me that blasphemy couldn’t be washed away.

Must someone be sinless before Confirmation? Or just for Communion?

We must be in a state of grace for five out of the seven Sacraments - Confirmation, Holy Communion, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick - the other two, we can approach while in a state of sin, because they have the effect of washing away our sins - these are Baptism, and Confession.

Anointing of the Sick normally takes place during Last Rites, which also includes the opportunity to make a Confession, and to receive Holy Communion, so you should not be afraid to ask for the Anointing of the Sick, even if you need to go to Confession, because the priest will offer you the opportunity to make a Confession when he comes to give you the Anointing.

If someone confesses their sins in a non-Catholic Church, is the absolution considered valid?

If someone makes their Confession in an Orthodox Church, it would be considered valid, but not otherwise - Anglican or Lutheran Confessions are not considered valid - and I’m not aware of any other Protestant groups that make use of it, but if they did, these also would not be considered valid.

 

[Julia1996]

We must be in a state of grace for five out of the seven Sacraments - Confirmation, Holy Communion, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick - the other two, we can approach while in a state of sin, because they have the effect of washing away our sins - these are Baptism, and Confession.
In Post #59 on page 4 of this thread, you (jmcrae) said that in the event that someone is unconscious, they cannot do Confession (for obvious reasons) but they can still receive the Anointing of the Sick. It is likely that the person had sinned since their last confession. In this case, they would be approaching the sacrament in a state of sin while unable to confess their sins. So can’t the anointing of the sick be approached in a state of sin?

Anointing of the Sick normally takes place during Last Rites, which also includes the opportunity to make a Confession, and to receive Holy Communion, so you should not be afraid to ask for the Anointing of the Sick, even if you need to go to Confession, because the priest will offer you the opportunity to make a Confession when he comes to give you the Anointing.
Are the Last Rites given to a person who is in danger of dying or must it be certain that the person will die before they can get the Last Rites?
If someone makes their Confession in an Orthodox Church, it would be considered valid, but not otherwise - Anglican or Lutheran Confessions are not considered valid - and I’m not aware of any other Protestant groups that make use of it, but if they did, these also would not be considered valid.

I think the Episcopals also use Confessions. So a convert would have to re-confess all of their sins?

 

[jmcrae]

In Post #59 on page 4 of this thread, you (jmcrae) said that in the event that someone is unconscious, they cannot do Confession (for obvious reasons) but they can still receive the Anointing of the Sick. It is likely that the person had sinned since their last confession. In this case, they would be approaching the sacrament in a state of sin while unable to confess their sins. So can’t the anointing of the sick be approached in a state of sin?

In this case it could, yes. Thanks for pointing that out!

Are the Last Rites given to a person who is in danger of dying or must it be certain that the person will die before they can get the Last Rites?

They can be given to anyone who is seriously ill, even if at the time it doesn’t appear as though they will die. The reason is that it is better to do it, and then if they get well, it’s fine, than not do it, and then have the person die without it.

I think the Episcopals also use Confessions. So a convert would have to re-confess all of their sins?

All of their mortal sins, yes.

 

[diggerdomer]

Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic. Interestingly enough, your example is fairly similar to my life. The only difference is that I was baptized in a Methodist, not Presbyterian church. I was worried that there was some sort of penalty for being baptized twice, thanks for clearing up the issue.

Your signature line says:
According to Quentin Tarentino, (Kill Bill Volume 2) Clark Kent is Superman’s opinion of the human race. It occurs to me that, using the same logic, Jesus of Nazareth is God’s.

I don’t quite understand what this means. Could you please explain it to me.

Going back to the original topic. Baptism washes away ALL prior sins. Can confession wash away ALL confessed sins? Someone told me that blasphemy couldn’t be washed away. Must someone be sinless before Confirmation? Or just for Communion? If someone confesses their sins in a non-Catholic Church, is the absolution considered valid?

Baptism removes all sins

The Sacrament of Reconciliation removes all confessed sins.

 

[Julia1996]

In this case it could, yes. Thanks for pointing that out!

Thanks for clearing this up.

They can be given to anyone who is seriously ill, even if at the time it doesn’t appear as though they will die. The reason is that it is better to do it, and then if they get well, it’s fine, than not do it, and then have the person die without it.

What happens if the person lives? Would the Last Rites be ignored?

All of their mortal sins, yes.

What about venial sins?

 

[jmcrae]

What happens if the person lives? Would the Last Rites be ignored?

They would still impart the graces of spiritual healing, and may even have imparted graces of physical healing - this sort of thing has been known to happen, more and more often in recent years.

I met a woman this past weekend who gave a testimony that she had received Last Rites because it was thought that she was about to die of inoperable brain cancer - at the time, she was unable to speak or move - she was confined to her bed and dependent on her family for literally everything - after receiving the anointing, she became able to speak, and then had a very sudden urge that she needed to use the bathroom, and without thinking at all, she got up and walked to the bathroom (after having been confined for more than five years), which amazed everyone there - and to this day, she has been perfectly well. Her doctors at the Mayo Clinic have verified that they have no medial or scientific explanation for her healing.

I can send you her name privately, if you want to contact the clinic and verify her story.

What about venial sins?

These would be washed away in any devout act that the person made - even a simple prayer of just a few words, and certainly they would be washed away when the person received Confirmation and First Holy Communion. It is not necessary to confess venial sins in the Confessional.