Can we use Pre-VII vestnments?

[TAS2000]

Well, thank you. I looked in the church supply catalog last night to try to see the differences, and I see the cope is easily identifiable, and that’s not what we have. (We do have a humeral veil though). I wasn’t really able to see a consistant difference in the dalmatics and chasabules though, so I’m guessing it was just the styles that kept me from seeing the sleeves in all the pictures. So dalmatics have sleeves, chasbules don’t. OK. It seems that what we have in back are mostly fiddlebacks.

And the difference I noted in the deacon and priest’s vestments can be summed up thus: The priest’s chasabules look very much like the ones found in the $100-$150 price range, and the deacon’s look like his come from the $400-$600 (and up) price range. They had some lovely ones and some truly ugly ones in the catalog. I see a fund raising effort coming soon…

I also saw many different types of albs in the catalog, and was wondering if anyone could explain the differences. What is the difference in a regular alb and a concelebrant alb? Some have different fronts, too. Is it just style or is there different meaning behind the different types? Also some vestments had rolled hood- like necklines, and other didn’t. Is there any meaning behind that?

Is there a resource where I would learn this stuff?

 

[jbuck919]

Personal opinion here. I think that the sleeveless chasuble (more properly the chasuble that does not cover the upper arm) that has become fashionable among Traditional Catholic priests looks like a glorified apron or even bib. I don’t remember seeing a chasuble that looked like that prior to the Novus Ordo (my memory may be faulty) and I find them simply ridiculous. They are particularly so in the one-size-fits-all mode where on a tall priest they only come down to the waist. They are not used by the Anglo-Catholics, who are more conservative in these matters than the Romans are these days, and as the pics above show they were never a mandatory feature. The chasuble is supposed to cover most of the “undergarments,” not merely function as an adornment over them.

My parish of upbringing was forced (by condemnation) to build a new church in the late 60s. It was already quite modern (it might have been built yesterday). Forget what you might think about that, the (reasonably attractive) neo-gothic vestments they were using were now totally out of place (as were the wrought iron votive candle stands). But nobody had provided for replacing those, which could have been donated to a church that still had a traditional building. A new curate spent a lot of his own money buying lovely new appropriate vestments for himself (everything entirely in order, nothing weird) that looked in place in that context. They were of the finest linen, appropriately colored, minimally but tastefully embroidered, and they definitely looked like vestments.

.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

When in 1968 my parish tore down its old church (because it was condemned) and built a new one, already a modern church in the round because that was the new guideline, they did not bother to modernize several things (because they could not affort them). One of those was the vestments, which continued to be the neo-gothic vestments they had been using.

Then we got a curate who realized that this was an aesthetic sillines and spent his own money buying (very beautiful) modern style vestments. He was a young man who seemed to be the only one who realized that you can’t put the old against the new (even just visually) without creating a jarring aesthetic clash. Modern vestments can and should be very elegant and beautiful.

Since then I have been observing images of “traditional” celebrations of the Mass in which the chasuble is not much more than a sleeveless drape over front and back, a glorified scapular as it were. I guess I’m supposed to remember this from my childhood, but it looks so completely ridiculous that it only confirms the notion that the “traditional” movement just wants everything to look as it commonly did in 1960 or 1955 and to heck with everything else. Even in those days, a chasuble of any substance ran over the edges of the shoulders and looked like an overgarment, not a decoration over a linen called an alb.

I would not swear by it, but I believe that we use ornate Gothic chasubles at the TLM here in Covington. They are quite beautiful, and it is most saddening that they are not used for the normal Masses.

In fact, one of the other servers, whilst looking in the sacristy closet, said that someone needed to die so that we could use the black cope and chasuble, which are quite lovely.

Our High Mass set, however, uses a fiddleback, nisi erro.

And, BTW, I do not appreciate being mocked. I am not “traditional” I am a traditional, faithful Catholic. I do not desire “smells and bells” only, as it were, but also the reverence and the awe. I want wonder in our parishes again. When everyone handles it, the Host becomes simply a piece of bread in the eyes of most. If we do not return to a greater sense of the prescence of Christ, and show respect thus due, we risk becoming just another Protestant sect.

I also want the focus moved. I want the priest facing God, not me. Am I so selfish that I cannot bear to have someone else be the centre of attention? Do I need to hear every word spoken, even the most intimate, betwixt the priest and the living God? NO! I want God to be the one the sacrifice is offered towards, not me. I want the sacrifice offered for my sake, true enough, but not to me.

That is why I am a traditional Catholic. Not because I am a petty moron who thinks the 50’s and 60’s were great, and that we should all be that way again, but because I love God and want to praise Him.

-SPXII

 

[Brendan]

m134e5:

There is no prohibition on Pre-Vatican II vestments whatsoever. Indeed, a Novus Ordo Mass could licitly have many of the things that many people say Vatican II said they couldn’t do anymore (Gregorian Chant, Polyphony, Communion rails, ad orientem, the old high altar, Latin, incense, sanctus bells, traditional vestments, patens, women wearing veils- by choice though, etc.)

Not quite true, the current GIRM lists the vestments to be worn by the priest as

1. In the sacristy, the sacred vestments (cf. below, nos. 337-341) for the priest, the deacon, and other ministers are to be prepared according to the various forms of celebration:

For the priest: the alb, the stole, and the chasuble;

For the deacon: the alb, the stole, and the dalmatic; the dalmatic may be omitted, however, either out of necessity or on account of a lesser degree of solemnity;

For the other ministers: albs or other lawfully approved attire.

All who wear an alb should use a cincture and an amice unless, due to the form of the alb, they are not needed.

;

The maniple is not listed, and therefore should not be added on one’s own initiative.

An amice can be worn in conjunction with the alb if deemed necessary.

 

[Chatter163]

Additionally, the maniple was suppressed in 1967 with the promulgation of the Second Instruction on the Liturgy.

 

[gelsbern]

just for fun, memorare.com/tests/quizvestments.html

I don’t know if the site is in communion or not, but the vestment quiz is interesting.

 

[AJV]

Servus Pio XII:

In fact, one of the other servers, whilst looking in the sacristy closet, said that someone needed to die so that we could use the black cope and chasuble, which are quite lovely.

Does your priest not offer Masses for the Dead?

The downside of fiddlebacks is that they depend too much on the person wearing them. Fiddlebacks look nice on some priests but horrible on others. The fiddleback looks best when a bishop celebrates in full pontificals, IMHO.

Additionally, with more masses being celebratred versus populum, there is a danger that fiddlebacks could look ridiculous!

 

[jbuck919]

gelsbern:

just for fun, memorare.com/tests/quizvestments.html

I don’t know if the site is in communion or not, but the vestment quiz is interesting.

I got a perfect score. Pretty hard not to when you had Sister Mary Thomas as a second grade teacher. I also know all the items that dress the chalice. I know, big deal.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

slewi:

I know we are talking about chasubles, but am I the only one who hates today’s albs? not the hooded ones if they are made with a heavier fabric, but those nasty polyester ones with the velcro closure by the neck? They are horrible looking. Does anyone know where to purchase traditional albs like they used to wear? With the lace on the sleeves and bottom hem?

Stephen

A catalog store called Autom has the ones you describe, aong with the thin, part polyester albs that turn gray in the first ten washes.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

The kinds of chasubles were distinguished by the cut of the fabric. These come immediately to mind:

• fiddle-back } {
• square-back ]

(both of the above are also sometimes referred to as Roman style)

• gothic / \
• conical / \

(both of the above are sometimes referred to as “Gothic” style - with the conical sometimes also termed “semi-gothic” and the other as the “full” or “ample” gothic -also “European Gothic”. In distinguishing the two, it is maybe the difference between 135 degrees of a circle versus 180 degrees of same)

Here’s a photo of a fiddle-back; note that it is in the front of the vestment that the distinctive fiddle-back outline appears; it gave the priest easier range of arm motion than did the square-back, which lacked the curvature in front to accomodate his arms.

This is a good photo of a square-back, another photo of a square-back is here, interesting for its peculiar history.

The difference between conical and gothic styles can hopefully be seen in these sketches and these photos.

There were also distinctions once made by styles common to various countries, but those are pretty uncommon now. Here’s a site that displays drawings of these:

St. Benet’s Guild

In Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches of the Byzantine Rite, the name for the equivalent vestment is the phelonion (spelling may vary slightly among different ethnic groups within the Byzantine tradition). You can see examples here of Greek and of Russian phelonions, they are the outermost of the vestments displayed; note that the major difference is that the upper front section of the Russian vestments is cut slightly higher than are those of the Greek.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Servus Pio XII:

In fact, one of the other servers, whilst looking in the sacristy closet, said that someone needed to die so that we could use the black cope and chasuble, which are quite lovely.

I’m not absolutely sure that the guideline was the same in 1962 as it is now, but higher quality vestments can be used to mark greater solemnity even if they are the wrong color.

GIRM par. 346 g. “On more solemn days, sacred vestments may be used that are festive, that is, more precious, even if not of the color of the day.”

I’m not sure if black counts as ‘festive’ but it would seem to fulfill ‘more precious’ and might thus theoretically be worn to mark solemnity.

 

[AJV]

Andreas Hofer:

I’m not absolutely sure that the guideline was the same in 1962 as it is now, but higher quality vestments can be used to mark greater solemnity even if they are the wrong color.

GIRM par. 346 g. “On more solemn days, sacred vestments may be used that are festive, that is, more precious, even if not of the color of the day.”

I’m not sure if black counts as ‘festive’ but it would seem to fulfill ‘more precious’ and might thus theoretically be worn to mark solemnity.

Black for solemnity?

I dont mean to be rude but that’s really funny. Besides I think SSXII was talking about an Indult Mass.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

AJV:

Black for solemnity?

I dont mean to be rude but that’s really funny. Besides I think SSXII was talking about an Indult Mass.

I actually think it sounds especially funny, but for those who like loopholes it could be done. While I’m fairly well-versed in N.O. liturgical norms, my knowledge of Pian norms is confined to the rubrics in my hand missal, so I just offered that the exception might also exist for indults. Given that the context is probably indult Masses, it would make sense that there would not be (m)any Masses for the dead because most indult communities have only Sunday Mass.

 

[mosher]

It was mentioned that a fittleback (properly called a Roman Chasible) would look silly in a mass celebrated versus populum. I agree. The solution to this is to wear the Spanish Chasible which looks similar to the Roman Chasible but it has a designed front and back as opposed to the Roman which only has a designed back. The Gothic is nice and is also a “pre-Vatican 2” vestment.

We tend to forget that the different vestments were designed regionally for practicle purposes namely that some places are colder than others. In the US it would be a good practice to use both types seasonally depending on the insulation of the parish.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Does your priest not offer Masses for the Dead?

One indult Mass a week. When would he? And, it looks as if Fr. Fitzgerald may be away for awhile, so Msgr. Cleves will begin to offer it. Both are good priests, but Fr. Fitzgerald is from the Pre-VII days, and so his Masses are quite lovely.