Can/Will Lucifer return to Heaven?....more

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God blesses me wherever I go with a new challenge, and I received this one recently. A young man, who is trying to find his way to the truth, was telling me that he believed that Lucifer could/would go to Heaven if he repented at the end of time. He seemed to love the book of Revelation, which I haven’t studied enough to discuss intelligently and correctly.

He also challenged me that he believes that Satanism is a form of worship (!!!) to God, which I tried to help him see as incorrect. He thinks that it’s just another religion, like Lutheran or Methodist.

As I mentioned, he is seeking the truth, and I offered him the one truth, with great scriptures that I knew to be true, that Jesus Christ is God. He didn’t believe that! (He is not any one religion, he says.) He had great difficulty with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being God, one God. He didn’t believe that Jesus Christ is God, although thanks to y’all, as well as Catholic Answers Live, I was able to find Scriptures quickly to show him that.

It was in a very challenging situation (late night on the patio with others milling about, some drinking quite a bit) but this young man was sincere and sober. He actually had notes and his Bible on the patio table. We talked civilly for around an hour. I actually had a self proclaimed atheist acquaintance support me on a few points when another man was rather belligerent about the discussion.

I hope to see him again soon (perhaps this evening), and was hoping to have some Scriptural references to Lucifer being/not being in Heaven, as on one hand he believes in Sola Scriptura, but when I gave him proof of Jesus as God in the Scriptures, he was puzzled. He’s just VERY new, and in his mid 20s. I think he might have came from a background that involved gangs and jail, either him or his friends/family. At this time, I won’t be able to use the Church Fathers when sharing with him; I’m trying to meet him where he is. I invited him to visit this website as well. Please pray for both of us.

Praise God, Praise the Holy Spirit for His Guidance in speaking to this young man in His Love and Truth. Thank you God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for this opportunity. AMEN!
 
Hello,

Hope this message finds you well and may God be the light that guides you as you walk with this young man.

One of the first thing that you stated is that Satanism is a form of worship, yes it is true Satanism is its own religion. To God is obviously incorrect. Worshipping of Satan is the complete opposite. “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm they bretheren”(St. Luke 22:31-32) As we can see in this verse Satan’s intentions are directly against the will of God. The issue with this scripture is that Jesus is saying it and he is still not at the point where he believes in Christ being God.

Also, the idea of Satan being able to repent and return to heaven is one that many have pondered but we can see in scripture how this is impossible. Reason being is the unforgivable sin. It is mentioned 3 times, I believe, in the New Testament. The unforgivable sin being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Now, why is it unforgivable since God can forgive all sins? Well, it’s impossible for there to be anything that God can’t forgive. He’s God. A drop of His blood is more than enough to forgive the world of all its sins. So why does it say that it’s unforgivable? Because to be able to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, one must fully understand what the nature of the Holy Spirit is. One must be able to fully grasp and understand who God is. There isn’t a single human being that I can think of that has been able to fully understand who and what the Holy Spirit is. Why? Because we’re human and as humans we will never fully understand God. So any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be rooted in ignorance and ignorance is bliss because you are no longer held to that same standard as someone who does know and understand. This now begs the question who can commit this sin. Satan can. He isn’t human and was with God. All the heavenly bodies understand the full meaning of who and what God is. This doesn’t mean they’re as powerful or all knowing, this simply means that they know enough to commit this sin. So Satan and his followers committed this sin. Now, why is it unforgivable? Not because God can’t forgive them, it’s because when you reach that point of full understanding and are still willing to commit blasphemy against God, nothing will make you feel sorry. You fully understood what was happening and you went along with it with no remorse. And that is why Satan will never change. He has a hatred towards God and nothing will ever change his opinion on Him.

Now we can look at the Old Testament for verses on Satan falling out of heaven, the issue being that in the Old Testament Satan isn’t mentioned in the original scripts. He is referred to as adversary and in many English translations has been changed from adversary to Satan.

Here are some verses from the Old Testament in order to help.

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations? And thou saidst in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant, in the sides of the north.”(Isaias 14:12-13)

“And say to him: Thus saith the Lord God: Thou wast the seal of resemblance, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God: every precious stone teas thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the jasper, the chrysolite, and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire, and the carbuncle, and the emerald: gold the work of thy beauty: and thy pipes were prepared in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou a cherub stretched out, and protecting, and I set thee in the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee. 16By the multitude of thy merchandise, thy inner parts were filled with iniquity, and thou hast sinned: and I cast thee out from the mountain of God, and destroyed thee, O covering cherub, out of the midst of the stones of fire. 17And thy heart was lifted up with thy beauty: thou best lost thy wisdom in thy beauty, I have cast thee to the ground: I have set thee before the face of kings, that they might behold thee.”(Ezechial 28:12-17)

I would also add some verses from Genesis when it comes to the Serpent but I’m not sure how he will take the idea of Satan being a Serpent.

Hope this helps, if you need any help let me know.

Pax et Bonum
 
Just going by your initial title question no he can’t and he isn’t Lucifer anymore.

He had full knowledge, much more than us and he made his decision.
 
Ah yes, but that is Revelations, which many claim is not meant to be literal, ( that particular verse seems a tad symbolic or even metaphorical), plus, even if it is literal, this wont happen until the VERY end, when Satan supposedly rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, they were cast down to earth (NOT hell) with us.

I believe there is also a verse about Satan coming to some kind of meeting or gathering in Heaven, this would be after his ‘fall’, where God asks him where he has been, and he replies, coming and going from the earth.

We have no way of knowing what God and satans relationship is like, and I doubt even if we did, we could comprehend it, but we do know God did not turn satan into a pile of ashes after he tried to rebel, and continues to ‘allow’ him and the demons to have pretty much involvement with Gods prized creation, humans, so who knows what will happen?
 
mikekle said:
Ah yes, but that is Revelations, which many claim is not meant to be literal, ( that particular verse seems a tad symbolic or even metaphorical), plus, even if it is literal, this wont happen until the VERY end, when Satan supposedly rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, they were cast down to earth (NOT hell) with us.

I believe there is also a verse about Satan coming to some kind of meeting or gathering in Heaven, this would be after his ‘fall’, where God asks him where he has been, and he replies, coming and going from the earth.

We have no way of knowing what God and satans relationship is like, and I doubt even if we did, we could comprehend it, but we do know God did not turn satan into a pile of ashes after he tried to rebel, and continues to ‘allow’ him and the demons to have pretty much involvement with Gods prized creation, humans, so who knows what will happen?
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We do know what will happen. Everyone in Hell is there forever. That is an infallible teaching of the Church (backed by the full authority of God). If anyone was ever allowed to move from Hell to be saved then it would mean God lied to us, which of course he cannot.

Anyone who believes even in the possibility of those in Hell being ultimately saved at the end of time commits the heresy of Universalism.
 
thistle said:
We do know what will happen. Everyone in Hell is there forever. That is an infallible teaching of the Church (backed by the full authority of God). If anyone was ever allowed to move from Hell to be saved then it would mean God lied to us, which of course he cannot.

Anyone who believes even in the possibility of those in Hell being ultimately saved at the end of time commits the heresy of Universalism.
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You are right regarding HUMAN souls that end up in hell, but not Satan himself (which is strange in itself imo) Why would God allow him any special ‘privileges’, when HE was the entity that wanted to literally overthrow heaven and take Gods throne for himself, desiring humans worship HIM…while humans can do their fair share of sinning, I cant think of any human who desires to literally take Gods position and be worshiped as such, in fact its not even something any human would be capable of attempting.

I got off topic for a second about that, but the bible gives a pretty clear description on how things will play out, this has Satan being sent to earth until Jesus comes again (where we are now), then he will be chained in hell for a period, but then will be released again for what is a implied to be a brief time…so why would God restrain him in chains in hell, only to release him upon the world again?
 
It doesn’t say that the Devil is chained in Hell. It says that he’s chained in “the Abyss” or “the Pit.”

The Abyss, aka “the deeps”, is one of those Jewish concepts we don’t usually have to deal with. Basically, they believed that groundwater, underground rivers, and underground caverns were signs of a sort of primordial chaos that existed inside the Earth, or that you could access that way. (We would probably picture this chaos as magma or the Earth’s core, instead of groundwater.)

The Talmud and various other Jewish sources say that the entrance on Earth to this place of primordial chaos was a pit… guess where…

Yes! Right underneath the Temple! In fact, right under the Holy of Holies!

This Pit in the floor was supposed to be locked up and closed by God with a special rock, and it had been shown to various Jewish Biblical figures like Solomon and David. At the end of the world, the Pit would be opened.

I don’t remember all the stuff about this, but various modern Revelation commentaries talk about these Jewish traditions. You can look it up.

So yes, the Devil is shown in Revelation as being thrown into the Pit of the Abyss, and is locked up in there. He isn’t shown as being in Hell until the end of the book, where he’s thrown into the lake of fire.
 
Mintaka said:
It doesn’t say that the Devil is chained in Hell. It says that he’s chained in “the Abyss” or “the Pit.”

The Abyss, aka “the deeps”, is one of those Jewish concepts we don’t usually have to deal with. Basically, they believed that groundwater, underground rivers, and underground caverns were signs of a sort of primordial chaos that existed inside the Earth, or that you could access that way. (We would probably picture this chaos as magma or the Earth’s core, instead of groundwater.)

The Talmud and various other Jewish sources say that the entrance on Earth to this place of primordial chaos was a pit… guess where…

Yes! Right underneath the Temple! In fact, right under the Holy of Holies!

This Pit in the floor was supposed to be locked up and closed by God with a special rock, and it had been shown to various Jewish Biblical figures like Solomon and David. At the end of the world, the Pit would be opened.

I don’t remember all the stuff about this, but various modern Revelation commentaries talk about these Jewish traditions. You can look it up.

So yes, the Devil is shown in Revelation as being thrown into the Pit of the Abyss, and is locked up in there. He isn’t shown as being in Hell until the end of the book, where he’s thrown into the lake of fire.
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That is interesting, Im going to read a bit on that. I think it also says either the AC or the false prophet will come from ‘the pit’.

I would assume it is still there and likely guarded by someone or at least someone keeps an eye on it.
 
mikekle said:
Ah yes, but that is Revelations, which many claim is not meant to be literal, ( that particular verse seems a tad symbolic or even metaphorical), plus, even if it is literal, this wont happen until the VERY end, when Satan supposedly rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, they were cast down to earth (NOT hell) with us.

I believe there is also a verse about Satan coming to some kind of meeting or gathering in Heaven, this would be after his ‘fall’, where God asks him where he has been, and he replies, coming and going from the earth.

We have no way of knowing what God and satans relationship is like, and I doubt even if we did, we could comprehend it, but we do know God did not turn satan into a pile of ashes after he tried to rebel, and continues to ‘allow’ him and the demons to have pretty much involvement with Gods prized creation, humans, so who knows what will happen?
Click to expand...
As I understand it, the portrayal of Satan in the book of Job is an earlier one, in which he is envisioned as God’s “prosecuting attorney” or “accuser” – the angel whose job it was to present the sins of humans in the worst light possible and demand God’s immediate justice. I don’t think Satan was envisioned as a fallen angel and actual enemy of God until a later era. You’ll notice that in a lot of the Old Testament, God’s omnipotence is prioritized more highly than His goodness, such that He is portrayed as being the power behind evil happenings and evil spirits. Later believers seem to have prioritized God’s absolute goodness more, and offloaded a lot of the nastier stuff onto Satan, now regarded as a rebel against God rather than one of His agents, if an unpleasant one.

The modern Catholic view tries to reconcile the two portrayals by presenting Satan as the enemy that will be defeated in the end, but whom God permits in the meantime to test and tempt us, so that Satan is effectively serving God’s purposes without really meaning to.

God does not annihilate Satan, in the Catholic conception, because He does not annihilate any of His immortal creations, permitting them to exist even if they spent eternity in futile rebellion and misery. The existence He gave them is good, and remains so even if they use it for evil.

As to the answer to the original question, my belief is that God would forgive and restore even Satan were he to repent, but it has already been revealed to us that he will never do so. In some versions, Satan in his original state is the first and most glorious being God created, and God loves him just as He loves us. The enmity is all on Satan’s end, just as it will be on ours if we are damned (God forbid!)
 
it is my understanding that spirits exist outside of time. that is why the rebellious angels do/did not get a second chance.
 
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