Can you be a Catholic and not believe in Purgatory?

[promethius]

None of the Church Fathers believed in a Physical Fire and a place of torment where one spends an alotted amount of time for ones sins as a “penance” or in which an “indulgence” was necessary for such a soul in such a state to be released from said place. Purgatory as a doctrine is early medevil exegesis of Scripture and Tradition by Latin Scholastics.

That is not entirely true… while no church father held that purgatory is a physical (or even spiritual) place with physical fire, niether does the DOCTRINE of purgatory hold such notions… in fact, the doctrine of purgatory is not one of a place, but of a PROCESS known as purgatory (or purgation).

As to whether or not there is suffering in purgatory, the sources from the ECFs are reasonably unclear on this… some saying that it is like fasting and sackcloth, others that it is more of a torment (although a righteous and fulfilling torment) an example would be Clement of Alexandria:

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). *

 

[rinnie]

Good evening everybody

I was thinking this earlier today, and I wanted to hear your thoughts…

Thanks and God bless!
Melani

If you are a Roman Catholic you are required to believe in Purgatory. But here is something many people get mixed up with. I myself have about a year ago.

The RCC teaches that you do not have to believe everyone goes to Purgatory. It is taught that people can reject the notion that everyone must go to Purgatory.

There indeed are people here on this earth that have become Saints in this world and can go directly to heaven at the time of their death. But unfortunately not very many.

 

[rinnie]

That is not entirely true… while no church father held that purgatory is a physical (or even spiritual) place with physical fire, niether does the DOCTRINE of purgatory hold such notions… in fact, the doctrine of purgatory is not one of a place, but of a PROCESS known as purgatory (or purgation).

As to whether or not there is suffering in purgatory, the sources from the ECFs are reasonably unclear on this… some saying that it is like fasting and sackcloth, others that it is more of a torment (although a righteous and fulfilling torment) an example would be Clement of Alexandria:

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” *Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). *

Yes, we are taught it is more of a state of being then a place. We are also taught that there is suffering, but you don’t mind the suffering as much because at the end of the cleansing process you will get to be with Jesus forever in heaven in the end.

So it is kind of like a happiness knowing that you are on your way, but you have the Long Road!

 

[Alfonsus]

Indeed. The two aspect of Purgatory are both joy and suffering, as written by St. Catherine of Geona treatise on purgatory.

I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed…But, on the other hand, they endure a pain so extreme that no tongue can be found to tell it, nor could the mind understand its least pang if God by special grace did not shew so much. Which least pang God of His grace shewed to this Soul, but with her tongue she cannot say what it is. [Treatise on Purgatory Chapter 2 - St. Catherine of Genoa]

We Latin Catholics too often speak about agony, torment and punishment when speaking about Purgatory. The Eastern Catholics speaks more about the joy of theosis, the divinization, even after death.

Of course the judicial aspect is there, here we are talking about the effect of sin that need to be satisfied. But yet also, there is “romantic” aspect here, the invitation to be burned by the Lord fire of love.

For me, the best example to understand purgatory is the life of mystics (especially Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross), which detailed to such degree, the anguish and joy of this process of purgation, already here in earth, and the taste of mystical espousal with the Lord, also already here on earth.

I believe it is time for us, Latins, to reclaim the “joy of purgatory” no? The joy that is not comparable by anything but the joy of those already attain heaven.

I see purgatory as process of grace, silver refined seven times until become pure and worthy for the Master. Who would refuse this grace, if the Lord ask, “I want to purify you from every speck of imperfection and impurities, will you allow?”

 

[puzzleannie]

you can be a Catholic and not understand the doctrine of purgatory, which obligates you to take steps to become more educated on the topic, but no you cannot be Catholic and categorically deny any defined doctrine of the Church. To do so does not somehow make you “uncatholic” it means you have voluntarily decided that you, not Christ, and not the Church, will define what it means to be Catholic, and therefore you have declared yourself the sole authority over what you will do, think, believe and say. Dangerous ground

 

[thomas_jd]

None of the Church Fathers believed in a Physical Fire and a place of torment where one spends an alotted amount of time for ones sins as a “penance” or in which an “indulgence” was necessary for such a soul in such a state to be released from said place. Purgatory as a doctrine is early medevil exegesis of Scripture and Tradition by Latin Scholastics.

The exact opposite of your posting is true!

 

[Carlan]

If you are a Catholic and believe, as you should, that justification is a life long process of growth in holiness toward the perfection the Father requires of us, then you must believe also in the purification process.
The requirement for unity with the Father in heaven is holyness as the Father is holy.
How can you not believe in the doctrine of Purgatory?
Peace, Carlan

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Eastern Catholics arent required to believe it

We are as Catholics, but have our own understanding which is reconcilable to the Latin Church dogma.

And for those Catholics who may not believe, perhaps we’ll see you there!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Most Roman Catholics I’ve talked to speak of purgatory as a place of pain, sort of like a temporary Hell. That is not really the theology of the Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics (I can’t speak for the Oriental Catholics). We speak of purgatory more along the lines of a continued theosis/divinization.

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

I agree completely, Br. David. I was just pointing out the popular misconception/perception of purgatory among Roman Catholics. This misconception/perception seems to be more prominent among my “traddy” friends and acquaintances than anyone else.

 

[rinnie]

Depends what you mean by not believing in purgatory. Eastern Catholics have a different definition and understanding of it, something that you cannot call “purgatory” in the sense it is understood in the Latin Church, but of course the essential things are the same. That is that prayers for the dead are efficacious that we can improve upon the condition of their soul from their death to the Last Judgement through these prayers.

That is what makes no sense to me. Because how can you pray for the dead and not believe in purgatory then?

I mean face it, if there is no purgatory then you are either in heaven or in hell. There is no other.

So why would you pray for the dead in hell, the prayers will not help, they are in hell, they rejected God and sealed their fate. It is over, they are in eternal hell separated from God forever.

If they are in heaven, they are in perfect bliss and are with God, it gets no better then that. If they are in heaven they are Saints and it don’t get no better then that.

So how can the teaching be it does not exist, to pray for the dead. What is the reason?

 

[dcointin]

I’ve heard two different conceptions of Purgatory and would appreciate some clarification.

Purgatory is:

1. Purification from sin. When we die as genuine Christians (i.e. are members of the Church, have received the sacraments, have faith in Christ, active in charity, etc.) but have not yet attained sanctification, we must be purified of our remaining attachment to sin before beholding the face of God.
2. Satisfaction of temporal punishment. When we sin we owe God both an eternal an temporal debt. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross paid the price of our eternal debt, but the temporal debt (i.e. consequences) of our sin remains. This debt is satisfied by fulfilling the penance given by the Church at confession. If we die with unfulfilled penance, we continue to owe this debt, which is paid in Purgatory.

I’ve typically heard the first explanation in more modern Catholic treatements of the subject, and the second in older treatements. Are these both the teaching of the Church?

 

[rinnie]

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

But why cannot it still be a place of pain. Can you not carry a place of pain in your heart?

The reason it cannot be a physical Place is because when your soul departs from your body you are no longer a physical being.

But there are ways that we can suffer great pain and it not be physical. As I believe we can both agree mental pain is sometimes much worse and more of a suffering then any physcial pain could ever be.

It is said that with physical pain the scars heal. With mental pain the scars always remain.

So would a place have to be an actual physical place you can be or see. How about when you dream, are you in your mind not actually in that place?

 

[rinnie]

I’ve heard two different conceptions of Purgatory and would appreciate some clarification.

Purgatory is:

1. Purification from sin. When we die as genuine Christians (i.e. are members of the Church, have received the sacraments, have faith in Christ, active in charity, etc.) but have not yet attained sanctification, we must be purified of our remaining attachment to sin before beholding the face of God.
2. Satisfaction of temporal punishment. When we sin we owe God both an eternal an temporal debt. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross paid the price of our eternal debt, but the temporal debt (i.e. consequences) of our sin remains. This debt is satisfied by fulfilling the penance given by the Church at confession. If we die with unfulfilled penance, we continue to owe this debt, which is paid in Purgatory.

I’ve typically heard the first explanation in more modern Catholic treatements of the subject, and the second in older treatements. Are these both the teaching of the Church?

The most simple way to explain it is this.

I go to confession and I confess my sins, I am now in the state of Grace. I am not longer in mortal sin.

But while confession does take you for the moment out of mortal sin, it cannot take you our of mortal sin forever. You have free will and can repeat the sin.

What most of sin is, doing something that we know is wrong, but we get something out of it, that we choose to separate ourself from God because we want the rewards of the sin so bad.

So when we die, we have to be rid of the enjoyment of the sin that was indeed there. While the good did not outway the bad, because afterwards how bad we feel, and knowing that at the time. we still let that sin overpower God.

That is what purgatory is, it removes any Want or rewards that we once knew we would get when we participated in the sin, all gone. You no longer see the rewards or the thing that has driven you to that sin. Its gone.

The want is gone forever. Then you are completely cleansed and ready to enter heaven.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is what makes no sense to me. Because how can you pray for the dead and not believe in purgatory then?

I mean face it, if there is no purgatory then you are either in heaven or in hell. There is no other.

So why would you pray for the dead in hell, the prayers will not help, they are in hell, they rejected God and sealed their fate. It is over, they are in eternal hell separated from God forever.

If they are in heaven, they are in perfect bliss and are with God, it gets no better then that. If they are in heaven they are Saints and it don’t get no better then that.

So how can the teaching be it does not exist, to pray for the dead. What is the reason?

You have to understand that the theology of the East is completely different than the West. To appreciate it, you should open your eyes, mind and heart and not think like a Roman Catholic. Don’t try to fit Eastern belief into what you already know as a Roman Catholic, because the Church Fathers certainly did not come up with their teachings that way. Its like trying to understand the Japanese way of life in the context of American culture.

We do know that the dead can be prayed for and that their sins can be forgiven. What is the exact process wasn’t defined conclusively because we have no evidence of that. We don’t say someone is in hell today because we don’t know. It will be presumptuous to do so. So we pray for the dead no matter what we think they did in life, only God is the judge. We know our prayers do bear merit in the salvation of their souls.

Even the understanding of heaven is different. Heaven is not a “you’re in eternal bliss, thats it”. We believe each person experiences heaven differently based on the merits of their lives, and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.

 

[TimothyH]

That is what makes no sense to me. Because how can you pray for the dead and not believe in purgatory then?

I mean face it, if there is no purgatory then you are either in heaven or in hell. There is no other.

So why would you pray for the dead in hell, the prayers will not help, they are in hell, they rejected God and sealed their fate. It is over, they are in eternal hell separated from God forever.

If they are in heaven, they are in perfect bliss and are with God, it gets no better then that. If they are in heaven they are Saints and it don’t get no better then that.

So how can the teaching be it does not exist, to pray for the dead. What is the reason?

 

[TimothyH]

You have to understand that the theology of the East is completely different than the West. To appreciate it, you should open your eyes, mind and heart and not think like a Roman Catholic. Don’t try to fit Eastern belief into what you already know as a Roman Catholic, because the Church Fathers certainly did not come up with their teachings that way. Its like trying to understand the Japanese way of life in the context of American culture.

We do know that the dead can be prayed for and that their sins can be forgiven. What is the exact process wasn’t defined conclusively because we have no evidence of that. We don’t say someone is in hell today because we don’t know. It will be presumptuous to do so. So we pray for the dead no matter what we think they did in life, only God is the judge. We know our prayers do bear merit in the salvation of their souls.

Even the understanding of heaven is different. Heaven is not a “you’re in eternal bliss, thats it”. We believe each person experiences heaven differently based on the merits of their lives, and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.

Is this maybe because God is outside of time? Our prayers today, since God is outside of time, can help save someone who lived long ago?

-Tim-

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is this maybe because God is outside of time? Our prayers today, since God is outside of time, can help save someone who lived long ago?

-Tim-

I haven’t found anything in my very limited reading on the topic to suggest that is a belief held by the Church Fathers. There are varying opinions on the state of the souls after death. We do hold that there are those who are worthy of God and are in heaven, as some of them has been presented by God as the saints we venerate. Everyone else, we do not know. We have no proof of anyone being in hell, so is hell empty until the Last Judgement or are there people entering it today? We do not know. Some have taught that we can keep praying for anyone and everyone and that everyone has the possibility of being saved through our prayers.

 

[HelenRose]

I suspect I’m not the only one who is thankful for the option of Purgatory!

I am one of those.

As for the original question. When I became a Catholic there were a lot of beliefs that I did not understand. Purgatory was one of them. If someone had asked me out right, “Do you really believe in Purgatory.” I would have had to say, " I am not sure but this is what the Church teaches and I accept Her teachings." In time (because I believed that the Church was speaking the truth) I have come to understand more fully the reasoning behind the teaching of purgatory.

There is so much to learn and understand. It takes awhile to fully know and understand what one believes.

 

[TimothyH]

I haven’t found anything in my very limited reading on the topic to suggest that is a belief held by the Church Fathers. There are varying opinions on the state of the souls after death. We do hold that there are those who are worthy of God and are in heaven, as some of them has been presented by God as the saints we venerate. Everyone else, we do not know. We have no proof of anyone being in hell, so is hell empty until the Last Judgement or are there people entering it today? We do not know. Some have taught that we can keep praying for anyone and everyone and that everyone has the possibility of being saved through our prayers.

Do you mean that you have not found anything to indicate that the Church Father’s believed that God was outside of time, or that prayers for the dead are efficacious because God is outside of time? I think you are speaking about the latter, rather than the former, no?

I’m not challenging, just asking for clarification.

As a Roman Catholic, this is something I have wondered about - where my deceased loved ones are and if it really makes sense to pray for someone, or to someone who might just be in heaven, and how to pray for them or to them. Your post does shed some light on it for me, or at lease gives me another perspective from which to approach the topic.

-Tim-