Can you be a Catholic and not believe in Purgatory?

[OraLabora]

That is what makes no sense to me. Because how can you pray for the dead and not believe in purgatory then?

I mean face it, if there is no purgatory then you are either in heaven or in hell. There is no other.

So why would you pray for the dead in hell, the prayers will not help, they are in hell, they rejected God and sealed their fate. It is over, they are in eternal hell separated from God forever.

If they are in heaven, they are in perfect bliss and are with God, it gets no better then that. If they are in heaven they are Saints and it don’t get no better then that.

So how can the teaching be it does not exist, to pray for the dead. What is the reason?

I think it helps to think of purgatory as a process and not an actual place. The process can be very quick… well, the process probably happens outside of time so notions of quickness, physical locations, etc are probably meaningless.

Sometimes in our faith walk we just have to chalk up some things to mystery and I think it’s safe to say that while we can dogmatically believe in a process of purification, the exact mechanics are a mystery that only God, and those who have met him face-to-face, can know.

Purgatory as a place… well it can either be a holding pen for those waiting for the actual process… it can be a long drawn out punishment… these we cannot know but the notion of purgatory as a place probably is to help us conceptualize a mystery.

It’s sort of like saying we are made in God’s image but that also includes the invisible soul and how we will look when in the afterlife. We tend though to anthropomorphize God the Father to better help picture Him in our minds; in fact God did take on human characteristics through the incarnation where He really did become like us, and not just an image of us. What God the Father actually looks like is unfathomable. We will know when we meet Him face to face.

I think these elements of mystery are in fact helpful to our faith. They help create a sense of awe in God, a sense of our smallness and a sense of our human limitations. This is a Good Thing IMHO!

 

[w_s_s]

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

No, this is taking it too far.

It is one thing to say that the notion of Purgatory as a place of suffering for the sake of purification is non-dogmatic.

It is altogether different to claim that the notion is mistaken. It may or may not be mistaken, we don’t know for sure, but the traditional Roman Catholic conception of purgatory is entirely consistent with the dogmatic doctrine of Purgatory and has been believed by very many learned and holy people.

Do not be surprised if you end up in purgatory suffering pains of fire.

 

[w_s_s]

I agree completely, Br. David. I was just pointing out the popular misconception/perception of purgatory among Roman Catholics. This misconception/perception seems to be more prominent among my “traddy” friends and acquaintances than anyone else.

It is entirely possible that you are the one with the misconception.

 

[w_s_s]

Even the understanding of heaven is different. Heaven is not a “you’re in eternal bliss, thats it”. We believe each person experiences heaven differently based on the merits of their lives

This is not an eastern idea. This is Catholic dogma. Each person receives their just reward. Those in hell are punished differently according to their sins, and those in Heaven are rewarded differently according to their merits.

and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.

Perhaps those prayers are fruitless.

 

[rinnie]

You have to understand that the theology of the East is completely different than the West. To appreciate it, you should open your eyes, mind and heart and not think like a Roman Catholic. Don’t try to fit Eastern belief into what you already know as a Roman Catholic, because the Church Fathers certainly did not come up with their teachings that way. Its like trying to understand the Japanese way of life in the context of American culture.

We do know that the dead can be prayed for and that their sins can be forgiven. What is the exact process wasn’t defined conclusively because we have no evidence of that. We don’t say someone is in hell today because we don’t know. It will be presumptuous to do so. So we pray for the dead no matter what we think they did in life, only God is the judge. We know our prayers do bear merit in the salvation of their souls.

Even the understanding of heaven is different. Heaven is not a “you’re in eternal bliss, thats it”. We believe each person experiences heaven differently based on the merits of their lives, and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.

Okay, now I totally agree with you on the fact that any of us can kmow for sure if anyone is in heaven or hell. I totally agree with you there.

That is why we pray for our dead no matter what we believe. I BELIEVE my Dad and Brother are in heaven with God, BUT I cannot presume to know the mind of God so I pray that if they are not in heaven, they are in purgatory and my prayers will help them get to heaven.

While I agree with you that when we do reach heaven we are given according to what we have accomplished here. Of course not accomplishments as this world sees us but as in the eyes of Christ. On that we both agree.

But I thought when we die we have our final judgement. Could you show me where the teaching of the those that enter heaven, can increase their experience of God.

I mean I have never heard of that. I was always taught that once you entered heaven you were a Saint, a Saint means you have been perfected in Christ, you made the grade. Perfected in Christ is just that.

Not that I don’t like the way you see it, I believe any prayers are good. But where does that teaching come from? A site I can read up this.

 

[Padraig1972]

No.

 

[rinnie]

And if I may I have one more question.

In the CCC which is direct line with the scripture it is said that all who die in Gods grace and friendship BUT still IMPREFECTLY Purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after DEATH must undergo purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven.

Now how and where is this final purifcation Done? Its AFTER death. Now it CANNOT be done in heaven because you cannot enter heaven without becoming Holy which means become a Saint, and you cannot be having the Final purification during our time here because its AFTER death.

Now what do you do with this scripture? Because as we have discussed it is indeed considered a process and it is considered more of a state then a Place. but it really does not matter if you call it a place or state its really the same thing, its a IN BETWEEN heaven and earth state or place if thats is how people see it. But the point of the matter is:

Where is this done? It can’t be heaven, you must be holy to enter heaven, and you do not need a final cleansing if you are Holy. And as we know it sure is not hell, because if you are in hell you sure did not die in God’s Grace.

 

[rinnie]

Is this maybe because God is outside of time? Our prayers today, since God is outside of time, can help save someone who lived long ago?

-Tim-

I really cannot see how that would make a difference. Because we are still judged at the time of our death. Rather God is outside of time and rather someone prayed for us years to come, we still have that final judgement at our time of death.

 

[OraLabora]

And if I may I have one more question.

In the CCC which is direct line with the scripture it is said that all who die in Gods grace and friendship BUT still IMPREFECTLY Purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after DEATH must undergo purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven.

Now how and where is this final purifcation Done? Its AFTER death. Now it CANNOT be done in heaven because you cannot enter heaven without becoming Holy which means become a Saint, and you cannot be having the Final purification during our time here because its AFTER death.

Now what do you do with this scripture? Because as we have discussed it is indeed considered a process and it is considered more of a state then a Place. but it really does not matter if you call it a place or state its really the same thing, its a IN BETWEEN heaven and earth state or place if thats is how people see it. But the point of the matter is:

Where is this done? It can’t be heaven, you must be holy to enter heaven, and you do not need a final cleansing if you are Holy. And as we know it sure is not hell, because if you are in hell you sure did not die in God’s Grace.

We’ll all find out soon enough.

Well, hopefully, not too soon

 

[promethius]

And if I may I have one more question.

In the CCC which is direct line with the scripture it is said that all who die in Gods grace and friendship BUT still IMPREFECTLY Purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after DEATH must undergo purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven.

Now how and where is this final purifcation Done? Its AFTER death. Now it CANNOT be done in heaven because you cannot enter heaven without becoming Holy which means become a Saint, and you cannot be having the Final purification during our time here because its AFTER death.

Now what do you do with this scripture? Because as we have discussed it is indeed considered a process and it is considered more of a state then a Place. but it really does not matter if you call it a place or state its really the same thing, its a IN BETWEEN heaven and earth state or place if thats is how people see it. But the point of the matter is:

Where is this done? It can’t be heaven, you must be holy to enter heaven, and you do not need a final cleansing if you are Holy. And as we know it sure is not hell, because if you are in hell you sure did not die in God’s Grace.

No one can definitively answer these questions, because the church has not dogmatically defined the answer.

I personally find the language “in heaven” or “in hell” to be unreasonable, because this, again, contains the notion that heaven and hell are physical places as well. Hell is a condition of loss of beatific vision and all grace that goes with it. Heaven is a state of perfection of beatific vision, filling with grace, and total purification of the will/destruction of conscupience. I personally don’t think there are two different “realms” where people go after death, but rather that our choice for or against God influences our spiritual state such that we perceive goodness and God, or perceive only evil and darkness… the two extremes of the meter of beatific vision.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you mean that you have not found anything to indicate that the Church Father’s believed that God was outside of time, or that prayers for the dead are efficacious because God is outside of time? I think you are speaking about the latter, rather than the former, no?

I’m not challenging, just asking for clarification.

As a Roman Catholic, this is something I have wondered about - where my deceased loved ones are and if it really makes sense to pray for someone, or to someone who might just be in heaven, and how to pray for them or to them. Your post does shed some light on it for me, or at lease gives me another perspective from which to approach the topic.

-Tim-

The concept of timing is not discussed and is not part of the theology. There are Scriptural verses about souls being in prison and will be released from prison upon payment of debt. That is the basis for Purgatory in the West while in the East, it was never seen as an accurate portrayal of what is going on in the spiritual realm. It just tells us that the souls kept somewhere metaphorically until their sins have been paid for. From what I understand is our prayers today help the souls today, everything is in the present.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Okay, now I totally agree with you on the fact that any of us can kmow for sure if anyone is in heaven or hell. I totally agree with you there.

That is why we pray for our dead no matter what we believe. I BELIEVE my Dad and Brother are in heaven with God, BUT I cannot presume to know the mind of God so I pray that if they are not in heaven, they are in purgatory and my prayers will help them get to heaven.

While I agree with you that when we do reach heaven we are given according to what we have accomplished here. Of course not accomplishments as this world sees us but as in the eyes of Christ. On that we both agree.

But I thought when we die we have our final judgement. Could you show me where the teaching of the those that enter heaven, can increase their experience of God.

I mean I have never heard of that. I was always taught that once you entered heaven you were a Saint, a Saint means you have been perfected in Christ, you made the grade. Perfected in Christ is just that.

Not that I don’t like the way you see it, I believe any prayers are good. But where does that teaching come from? A site I can read up this.

Indeed it is a very Eastern view of salvation. There are accounts in Scripture where it is said we will be justly rewarded according to our own merits. Also the Eastern view of salvation is theosis, where we are deified and participate in the Divine Life of God. So how much Theosis we have achieved in life will affect how much we experience God in the afterlife. If you live a regular life and died a peaceful death, you may not experience God as much as one who died a martyr. Think of it this way, all American citizens have the same rights. But those who were born and raised in America appreciate being American differently than someone who was an immigrant and didn’t become an American citizen until they were in there 30s or 40s, for example. And someone who immigrated younger and became American younger will be “more American” than the older immigrant, but not as much as one born and raise in America. But ultimately, everyone’s American, living in America as Americans with all the liberties and rights every American gets.

I’ll look up some good sites to read for you. They will most probably be Orthodox sites as they have more abundant resources than Eastern Catholics, though we believe in the same thing in this regard. I will PM them to you when I have the list.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is not an eastern idea. This is Catholic dogma. Each person receives their just reward. Those in hell are punished differently according to their sins, and those in Heaven are rewarded differently according to their merits.

As from what I have been taught as an RC, and what other people have been saying here, most RCs do believe that heaven is heaven and there’s no differing degrees in heaven. Of course, that could be just the result of poor catechesis. Do you have any resources we can look at that would clarify this? I’m interested what the official teaching of the Church on this matter really is.

Perhaps those prayers are fruitless.

We’ve been taught to pray that way from early on in the history of the Church. Besides, no prayers are fruitless.

 

[A_G]

The doctrine of Purgatory is a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. You must believe in it.

 

[w_s_s]

As from what I have been taught as an RC, and what other people have been saying here, most RCs do believe that heaven is heaven and there’s no differing degrees in heaven. Of course, that could be just the result of poor catechesis. Do you have any resources we can look at that would clarify this? I’m interested what the official teaching of the Church on this matter really is.

I’ve never heard that Heaven is “the same” for everyone. It would seem to be grossly unjust if all persons received the same rewards and the same glory in Heaven.

Here’s a snippet from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on merit:

*It is worthy of note that, in these and many others good works are not represented as mere adjuncts of justifying faith, but as real fruits of justification and part causes of our eternal happiness. And the greater the merit, the greater will be the reward in heaven (cf. Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 9:6). *

We’ve been taught to pray that way from early on in the history of the Church. Besides, no prayers are fruitless.

They can be fruitless for the specific intention.

 

[MikeDunphy]

As from what I have been taught as an RC, and what other people have been saying here, most RCs do believe that heaven is heaven and there’s no differing degrees in heaven. Of course, that could be just the result of poor catechesis. Do you have any resources we can look at that would clarify this? I’m interested what the official teaching of the Church on this matter really is.

The Catholic Church teaches that there are differing degrees of beatitude in Heaven:

From the Council of Florence (Laetentur Coeli, Pope Eugene IV):
And that the souls of those, who after the reception of baptism have incurred no stain of sin at all, and also those, who after the contraction of the stain of sin whether in their bodies, or when released from the same bodies, as we have said before, are purged, are immediately received into heaven, and see clearly the one and triune God Himself, just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.

From the Council of Trent:
Canon 32. If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema.

From the Summa Theologica:
The more one will be united to God the happier will one be. Now the measure of charity is the measure of one’s union with God. Therefore** the diversity of beatitude will be according to the difference of charity**.

From the First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians (15:41-42):
One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption.

 

[Kyrby_Caluna]

If YOU DON’T BELIEVE in the dogma on PURGATORY then YOU ARE FALLING INTO HERESY. How sad… tsk… tsk… tsk…

 

[MikeDunphy]

As from what I have been taught as an RC, and what other people have been saying here, most RCs do believe that heaven is heaven and there’s no differing degrees in heaven. Of course, that could be just the result of poor catechesis. Do you have any resources we can look at that would clarify this? I’m interested what the official teaching of the Church on this matter really is.

I think that people are having difficulty with the notion of praying for someone to be reconciled with God (see 2 Maccabees 12:38-46) if he is already in heaven (or is in hell).

 

[Alfonsus]

And if I may I have one more question.

In the CCC which is direct line with the scripture it is said that all who die in Gods grace and friendship BUT still IMPREFECTLY Purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after DEATH must undergo purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven.

Now how and where is this final purifcation Done? Its AFTER death. Now it CANNOT be done in heaven because you cannot enter heaven without becoming Holy which means become a Saint, and you cannot be having the Final purification during our time here because its AFTER death.

Now what do you do with this scripture? Because as we have discussed it is indeed considered a process and it is considered more of a state then a Place. but it really does not matter if you call it a place or state its really the same thing, its a IN BETWEEN heaven and earth state or place if thats is how people see it. But the point of the matter is:

Where is this done? It can’t be heaven, you must be holy to enter heaven, and you do not need a final cleansing if you are Holy. And as we know it sure is not hell, because if you are in hell you sure did not die in God’s Grace.

I believe this is the source of problem when people speak about Purgatory.
Your questions already assume the existence of space more or less as we experience here on earth.

We know for sure that the process of sanctification unto perfection will take place for those who died in God’s grace.
We know for sure that the prayers of the Church can assist them undergo the process of sanctification, living or dead.
East and West agree with these things (ongoing theosis and prayers of the Church for the departed).

But we don’t know HOW, or at least, the Catholic Church let this question open.
This how includes other questions such as: where (if even this where exist at all), how long (if even this process can be measured by the notion of time as we know on earth), who (is my grandma in purgatory right now?), etc.

This is why people, even saints, when talking about Purgatory came with many differing descriptions. Some can be accepted as pious belief, some regarded as possibility although not the only possibility, some rejected.

I think the Church is very wise in proclaiming the notion of Purgatory as a state/process and stick to that as a doctrine. So why don’t stick with the simple as required by the Church and have peace with that?

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Excellent post. As an Eastern Catholic I can say that, although we do not speak of purgatory proper the way Roman Catholics do, we certainly believe in a (possible - i.e. for those who need it) transitional stage of purification after death.

Most Roman Catholics I’ve talked to speak of purgatory as a place of pain, sort of like a temporary Hell. That is not really the theology of the Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics (I can’t speak for the Oriental Catholics). We speak of purgatory more along the lines of a continued theosis/divinization.

Incidentally, such a transitional stage is also the belief of most Orthodox Christians, although it is not considered required dogmatic belief.

There is no divinization without suffering.

Gehenna is two places: Purgatory and Eternal Hell. They are similar, both lakes of fire, but not the same. The least scary way to think of it is that one of the Gehenna is likened to John 3:16, a place of hope.