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ConstantineTG
Guest
Good to know, perhaps others will be enlightened with the truth as well. When the topic is brought up again in other threads, I’ll be sure to bring this up.
The Church Fathers certainly didn’t think so, how can we know any better?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, in the case of hell, we never know right? And if they are in heaven, may their reward be increased! I don’t see what is so bad about that.
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Laudate_Dominum
Guest
If Purgatory isn’t a place, where does the purgation happen? Heaven and hell are real places. Those in purgatory do not as of the time of their purgation, enjoy the beatific vision (which is heaven). So they must be somewhere, that somewhere being Purgatory (hell).
I don’t see anything wrong with saying Purgatory is a place. It doesn’t interfere with the process that happens with the souls. It’s just saying they’re in a place whilst they go through the purgation.
I don’t see anything wrong with saying Purgatory is a place. It doesn’t interfere with the process that happens with the souls. It’s just saying they’re in a place whilst they go through the purgation.
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Alfonsus
Guest
Yes, it is not a problem to privately believe that. But the Church do not require us to believe purgatory as a place. She does require the faithful to believe purgatory as a state of being.
So, is it a place? Some believe there must be a place. Some say perhaps there isn’t a place anymore or at least not the same as our notion of space here on earth.
Regarding this, the Church do not give definitive doctrine. What is definitive is that the state of purgation exists.
Basically this description regarding purgatory, about the how, where, how long, like what things have several variations.
This is also what the Eastern Catholic Church means when they said “We don’t have the notion/required to believe Latin concept of purgatory.”
In the Eastern church tradition itself there are several theories regarding how theosis after death looks like. The idea of Toll Houses for instance, although not all accept this theory.
Thus, the best we can conclude regarding this “how” of purgatory is that of pious believe, theory or probability (or theologumenon).
Thus I found it troubling to require someone to accept one description regarding physical description of purgatory and label it as “the Church doctrine regarding purgatory,” while the Church herself never demand it. The doctrine is about “state of sanctification after death and the effectiveness of prayers for them in that state,” but how it is to be accomplished, where, how long, is not part of that doctrine.
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OraLabora
Guest
As was said you can believe it is a “place”, but others believe it is a process or state of being.
Consider this analogy as a state of being. You may be ill. That is a state of being. You may be ill with, say, pneumonia. That is a state of being. You may be receiving treatment for your illness (i.e. “purification”), or waiting for your “doctor’s appointment” (purification). But you are not in the exact same place as others with the same illness.
As sinners we are ill in needing of treatment (purification), if we die in our illness we must be purified of it before entering heaven. That’s all we need to know. The suffering is the suffering from your illness. The purification is the healing. Purgatory is the state of waiting for that healing and the process of healing at the end of purgatory.
On the other hand the analogy of “place” works too: God is the ultimate Physician. Purgatory can be seen perhaps as the waiting room of his clinic, and you are waiting your turn to see him and be cured (and if anybody has been to a crowded medical clinic in my part of the world, a waiting room certainly is no picnic!!!)
Neither detract from the actual de fide concept of purgatory.
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thomas_jd
Guest
God indeed is outside of time. At the final judgement at your death God has already taken into consideration all the prayers past , present and future and His decision has been based on all factors.I really cannot see how that would make a difference. Because we are still judged at the time of our death. Rather God is outside of time and rather someone prayed for us years to come, we still have that final judgement at our time of death.
We are given free will yet God knows the outcome. Keep praying for the dead.
If faith can move mountains, prayers can move Heaven!
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thomas_jd
Guest
After death the body and soul are seperated. The body remains behind until the final judgement when body and soul are reunited. The soul being immortal is sent to either Heaven, hell or Purgatory. As Heaven and hell are actual places, Purgatory should follow as a place of existence. Note the wording of the Apostles Creed, “he decended into hell”
that hell was the absence of God, the place all the dead waited until Gods death on the cross “Opened the Gates of Heaven”, the place Moses and all the prophets waited.
Physical pain to a spirit is unlikely, pain is associated with the nerves of the body etc…
I believe real anguish to the spirit can be much greater of a torment than physical pain.
Look to scripture, “he sweated blood” in the garden. Think of how upset one can become for a variety of reasons.
Purgatory is a place of great suffering , atoning for your past sins and knowing that you have failed in your duty to God.
that hell was the absence of God, the place all the dead waited until Gods death on the cross “Opened the Gates of Heaven”, the place Moses and all the prophets waited.
Physical pain to a spirit is unlikely, pain is associated with the nerves of the body etc…
I believe real anguish to the spirit can be much greater of a torment than physical pain.
Look to scripture, “he sweated blood” in the garden. Think of how upset one can become for a variety of reasons.
Purgatory is a place of great suffering , atoning for your past sins and knowing that you have failed in your duty to God.
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piejesu
Guest
That you can take to the bank!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Not absence of God, but separation from God. Note that there’s a huge difference from being separated from God, from God being absent. God is in all His creation, always, all the time. If God ceases to be in you, then you cease to exist.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
There’s a lot in the spiritual realm that we don’t understand. Heaven and hell aren’t places the way we understand places here on earth. Its not something you drive to or enter a door to get to, that is for sure.
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rinnie
Guest
I can accept this to a point, but my question still remains, There is still a process at your time of judgement no matter what prayers are in your favor where God makes his judgememt.
And unfortunately rather its something we like to think about it is either heaven or hell. We are told when Christ comes back there will be a new heaven and a new hell. But that does not change that for now there is heaven and hell.
So back to my original question you are still Judged at the moment of your death do your agree?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
It is believed we are judged at the time of our death, and judged again at the end of time. The prayers we have are for the end of time. If you read the links I PMed you, one of the beliefs in the East that Hell today is not permanent, that those who are there (prison) can still be released at the end of time when permanence takes place. Only after the Final Judgement is when those in hell will remain there for eternity. As you mentioned, there will be a new heaven and a new earth (not sure about new hell, I can’t recall it from scripture). Remember, the souls in heaven today are just souls. At the end of time, those in heaven will be body and soul.
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rinnie
Guest
But how do you know? According to scripture heaven is a place. Christ tells us.
He says where I am going you cannot go, but I will prepare a PLACE for you.
He also says heaven is a dwelling place.
Rather they are places like we know here, are not the point. According to scripture heaven is a place.
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rinnie
Guest
Scripture states that we canot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s mercuful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice.
This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called hell.
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its ETERNITY.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
You have to take the word in context, not just because you see the word there you just take the meaning of the word apart from the context. That is how Protestants and neo-Arians butcher scripture and trick poorly catechized Catholics into believing their lies.
We understand spirits to be different than our physical bodies. Their plane of existence is different than ours. Many theologians and teachers of the Church has spoken as such, read here for what Pope John Paul II said about it:
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
The problem here is we do not know who dies in mortal sin. Only God judges. We keeps saying that if one repents truthfully at the last second of their life can be forgiven. So our job is to pray for the soul.
Hell will be there for eternity and people will be there in hell after judgement. But as discussed earlier in this thread, we don’t really know who is in hell right now or even if anyone is in hell right now. We also know that prayers for the dead do help their souls achieve a better state in the afterlife. So we pray and not assume.
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rinnie
Guest
You are right, my bad, I meant new heaven and new earth.
But I do not see anywhere in the word of God that hell is not permanent.
According to the teachings of the Church the Last Judgement will be the resurrection of all the dead for both the just and unjust. But it does not say that the judgement will be different from the time of their earthly death.
It says this will be the hour when all the tombs will hear the Son of man’s voice and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
That is when he will separate them from one another. The sheep from the goats. And they will go into eternal punishment but the righteous into eternal life.
Every man receives his eternal recompense in is immortal soul from the moment of his death.’'Hells principal punishment consists of Eternal separation from Christ.
What I do not understand is how you can go to hell, be eternally separated from Christ but then at the last judgement be reunited with him again, If indeed that is what you are saying?
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OraLabora
Guest
No, the hell in the creed simply means grave. The Latin creed uses the word “sepultus”, which means “was buried”. It is not “hell” in the sense of the place of eternal punishment.
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rinnie
Guest
I could just KISS you for this. This is the complete understanding of the RCC understanding of Purgatory.
We do not KNOW who is in the state of Mortal Sin, so we pray for those who are in a state of Grace, who have not separated themself from Christ, who have not been completely cleansed from that sin yet. That is why we pray for our dead in purgatory. What I do personally is offer up prayers for my Dad, Brother, relatives etc who I pray are in heaven but just in case pray to make the purging time shorter by my prayers. If they are indeed all in heaven I offer them up to the another person. Who ever they may be.
Purgatory is for those who die in Gods grace and friendship IMPERFECTLY PURIFIED although they are INSURED of their eternal salvation.
That is why they are so HAPPY because They will soon be with Christ and enjoy his promises of bliss, but they are UNHAPPY not because of the suffering they are doing, but the way that thier (name removed by moderator)erfection at times hurt others and Christ.
But what we DO know is if they are in hell, its over. There is no second Judgement. He again receives his eternal recompense in a particular Judgement. But that particular Judgement is the one and only one.
But in the same token we believe in Heaven or Purgatory. No just heaven or hell. So back to the question at hand, if purgatory is not believed, and they are judged at the moment of their death, how can praying for them to gain a lets say better position in heaven? It is given at their moment of death!
That is where I am having a problem seeing your Church teaching.I have read what you have given, and thank you for that. But you must admit is does conflict with the final judgement at the moment of death.
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w_s_s
Guest
Citation needed.
Can a prayer for the specific intention of the conversion of the devil be fruitful for that intention?
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