Can you be a Catholic and not believe in Purgatory?

[w_s_s]

There’s a lot in the spiritual realm that we don’t understand. Heaven and hell aren’t places the way we understand places here on earth. Its not something you drive to or enter a door to get to, that is for sure.

Heaven, at the very least, is a place that can support the presence of at least two physical bodies.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Citation needed.

I think my point was there is a lack of citation.

Can a prayer for the specific intention of the conversion of the devil be fruitful for that intention?

We only pray for the souls of humans.

Heaven, at the very least, is a place that can support the presence of at least two physical bodies.

Are you talking about Enoch and Elijah, or Mary and Jesus? Because as we’ve seen with Jesus post-Resurrection, the Glorified Body defies the physics of our current plane of existence. Jesus was able to appear and disappear out of thin air, and enter locked rooms without breaking through the sealed doors and windows.

 

[w_s_s]

No, the hell in the creed simply means grave. The Latin creed uses the word “sepultus”, which means “was buried”. It is not “hell” in the sense of the place of eternal punishment.

The creed being mentioned in the Apostles Creed which, in Latin, uses the word “infernos”, which means “hell”.

This word “hell” in the Apostle’s Creed is referring to Limbo of the Fathers, the abode of just souls before the gates of Heaven were opened.

 

[w_s_s]

I think my point was there is a lack of citation.

I was asking for a citation for the assertion that the Church Fathers did not think that any prayer is fruitless. If there is no citation, then the assertion is to be dismissed.

We only pray for the souls of humans.

Ok, then you meant to say (or assumed the context): no prayers for the souls of the deceased are fruitless.

I disagree with that. I agree that we cannot know which souls are in heaven, purgatory, or hell, and thus we should never assume that our prayers would be fruitless, and that we should therefore pray for all of the dead.

But I don’t agree that prayers for a soul in either Heaven or hell are fruitful for the intention with which they are offered. Of course I’d be happy to see citations of the Church fathers or of the magisterium in support of the notion that prayers for the damned or prayers for the saints are efficacious in any way, if you can provide them.

Are you talking about Enoch and Elijah, or Mary and Jesus? Because as we’ve seen with Jesus post-Resurrection, the Glorified Body defies the physics of our current plane of existence. Jesus was able to appear and disappear out of thin air, and enter locked rooms without breaking through the sealed doors and windows.

I was talking about all of them. Glorified bodies are, however, real physical bodies. No matter that they are capable of things which are impossible for unglorified bodies.

 

[thomas_jd]

I can accept this to a point, but my question still remains, There is still a process at your time of judgement no matter what prayers are in your favor where God makes his judgememt.

And unfortunately rather its something we like to think about it is either heaven or hell. We are told when Christ comes back there will be a new heaven and a new hell. But that does not change that for now there is heaven and hell.

So back to my original question you are still Judged at the moment of your death do your agree?

I agree , you are judged at the moment of death.
If you accept this to a point I say that this is a good start for you to contemplate this .

 

[rinnie]

I agree , you are judged at the moment of death.
If you accept this to a point I say that this is a good start for you to contemplate this .

But here is where my problem comes in. Of course we can pray for someone and God is outside of time. I get that.

But the fact still remains when that person dies, we know exactly when the time of death it, well within reason, it is closely predicted in our time.

But what my point is when that person dies if you believe as the church states they are indeed judged at the moment of death, how can prayers for that person happen after the Human Death, and still fit into your Church teaching?

That is where it in no way fits,

 

[w_s_s]

But here is where my problem comes in. Of course we can pray for someone and God is outside of time. I get that.

But the fact still remains when that person dies, we know exactly when the time of death it, well within reason, it is closely predicted in our time.

But what my point is when that person dies if you believe as the church states they are indeed judged at the moment of death, how can prayers for that person happen after the Human Death, and still fit into your Church teaching?

That is where it in no way fits,

When you pray for the dead, you are not praying for the damned to become undamned, but praying for those who are saved, and yet not in Heaven (that is, they are in purgatory) to be released from purgatory and to enter Heaven more quickly.

 

[thomas_jd]

Not absence of God, but separation from God. Note that there’s a huge difference from being separated from God, from God being absent. God is in all His creation, always, all the time. If God ceases to be in you, then you cease to exist.

The phrase " absence of God" is correct!
Check Mr. Webster for a definition.

 

[thomas_jd]

But here is where my problem comes in. Of course we can pray for someone and God is outside of time. I get that.

But the fact still remains when that person dies, we know exactly when the time of death it, well within reason, it is closely predicted in our time.

But what my point is when that person dies if you believe as the church states they are indeed judged at the moment of death, how can prayers for that person happen after the Human Death, and still fit into your Church teaching?

That is where it in no way fits,

I see you still don’t grasp the concept “God is outside of time”.
God takes into consideration all prayers including those not yet uttered.
His mercy will include the summation of all prayers.

You think in our time, think in Gods time.

 

[veilofveronica]

No. It’s part of the teachings of the Catholic Church. We can’t pick and choose.

 

[rinnie]

When you pray for the dead, you are not praying for the damned to become undamned, but praying for those who are saved, and yet not in Heaven (that is, they are in purgatory) to be released from purgatory and to enter Heaven more quickly.

Yes, that is the teaching of purgatory. But where did I ever disagree with it?

 

[rinnie]

I see you still don’t grasp the concept “God is outside of time”.
God takes into consideration all prayers including those not yet uttered.
His mercy will include the summation of all prayers.

You think in our time, think in Gods time.

I do but it still does not change the fact that if a person denies Christ at the time of their death, it does not matter. No prayers will help them.

You cannot pray someone out of hell. When we are judged by Christ it is OUR own free will to reject or accept him. If what you are saying, our prayers will help someone even if they reject Christ at the time of their death, I strongly disagree.

The prayers for our loved ones are still for the ones who have by their own free will accepted Christ and are in a state of Grace.

So back to the point rather you are praying for someone who has left this world a thousand years ago, or I guess in your way of thinking, maybe someone who is yet to exist, or someone who is just a baby today, it makes no difference. It is not our prayers that have been prayed for us that save us, It is Christ to begin with who saves us, and our willingness to accept him and do his work that saves us, and our ability to repent and ask for forgiveness and quit our sin that helps us.

But the point is when a person does leave this world in our time, it is then that they are Judged. It is our prayers that we pray in the present, or yes we can pray for ourself now in the present for the future when we die for that matter to help us. But it still does not change the fact that you still have to be in the grace of God when you die.

And back to the whole point of this, if you die, and are indeed IN a state of Grace, but need to be purified then the prayers from someone here can save you thousands of years in this time of the Purging time. The prayers of loved ones in this world are such a large help to our loved ones.

But how can the prayers in the past present or future help someone who has been Judged at the time of their death? As you mentioned God is outside of time and is well aware of those prayers that are to come, did come etc, and they are taken into effect at the time of death, when Judgement was complete.

No matter that God is outside of time, has nothing to do with us being Judged AT THE time of our death, when the soul leaves the body is this world judgement is rendered.

Can you see God being outside of time does not work for me?

In the O.T. they always prayed for the dead. We are told in the N.T. that those who die in the grace of God will enter heaven but only after a purification process. But what you are trying to say in a way, I believe is, that by your prayers you can eliminate the process.

This is not true, it is not our prayers that we prayed or did not pray that eliminates this, it is our judgement at the time of our death.

Now if your would say that our prayers in the past present and future for a person could eliminate the time of the process I could actually go with you on this. But to say that our prayers actually eliminate the entire process, I cannot agree.

If they still have some cleansing to be done, it has to be done no matter how hard we pray. God has rendered his Judgement.

 

[rinnie]

Citation needed.

Can a prayer for the specific intention of the conversion of the devil be fruitful for that intention?

No, the bible tells us the devil is already judged and has not accepted God. He is a fallen angel and cannot repent, his time is over and he refused.

The CCC tells us it is the irrevocable character of their choice and not a defect in the infinite mercy that makes their sin unforgivible. There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.

That is why we believe that Purgatory is a process not of great pain or punishment from God as much as great proof of his infinite mercy.

 

[rinnie]

I was asking for a citation for the assertion that the Church Fathers did not think that any prayer is fruitless. If there is no citation, then the assertion is to be dismissed.

Ok, then you meant to say (or assumed the context): no prayers for the souls of the deceased are fruitless.

I disagree with that. I agree that we cannot know which souls are in heaven, purgatory, or hell, and thus we should never assume that our prayers would be fruitless, and that we should therefore pray for all of the dead.

But I don’t agree that prayers for a soul in either Heaven or hell are fruitful for the intention with which they are offered. Of course I’d be happy to see citations of the Church fathers or of the magisterium in support of the notion that prayers for the damned or prayers for the saints are efficacious in any way, if you can provide them.

I was talking about all of them. Glorified bodies are, however, real physical bodies. No matter that they are capable of things which are impossible for unglorified bodies.

And as much as I have to disagree with you prayers for the souls in hell are fruitless.

They like the devil have no repentance which makes their sins unforgivable.

But I do agree with you as far as human souls at the time of their death, there is always HOPE that they did indeed repent and were accepted into purgatory.

So in that case I agree you can always pray, for we can not know the mind of GOd and know his judgement.

But please be clear, once in hell its over.

 

[fred_conty]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.
UNQUOTE

In the Latin Mass I’ve never seen this nor heard of this. Could you possibly give an example of a liturgy that offers prayers FOR the saints.

In the Bible, early christians were sometimes referred to as saints and referred to each other as saints. So in this context it would make sense to pray for the saints.

Just a thought.

 

[Alfonsus]

I believe in the Byzantine theology of theosis (divinization), reaching heaven is seen as the beginning of a brand new journey of knowing God, ever deeper and deeper. Since God is infinite, while we are finite, it will be the beginning of experiencing awe that never ending. Thus theosis is a never ending process, there is no definite stop.

Prayer then is not seen only as vehicle to help you arrive to heaven (beatific vision), it is also seen as experiencing the communion of the saints, in a way that it also expressing our joy for the saints to ever anew find awe in God. And vice versa, prayer become the saints way of communicating this ever new awe to us.

We the Latin, often lack this nuance of understanding of prayer. Not that is bad or anything, but perhaps because we emphasis theosis differently.

I think the most telling prayer for the saints are contained in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom during the Anaphora (Eucharistic prayer) after the institution narative, during prayer for the deceased:

Moreover, we offer to You this rational sacrifice for those who departed in the faith: the forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics and for every just spirit made perfect in faith.
Especially for our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary.
For the holy Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John, for the holy glorious and all-praised apostles, for Saint N., whose memory we celebrate, and for all Your saints, through whose prayers, O God, visit us.
Remember also all who have fallen asleep before us in the hope of resurrection to eternal life. And grant them rest where the light of Your face shines. [Ruthernian Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom - 2009 Pastoral Update]

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I believe in the Byzantine theology of theosis (divinization), reaching heaven is seen as the beginning of a brand new journey of knowing God, ever deeper and deeper …

Well expressed, Alfonsus! Sure you are not an Eastern Catholic?

 

[paul11b]

Is this true?? Since LilyM stated that all Catholics do…

My understanding is that this is not true, that Eastern Catholics are required to believe it… Eastern Orthodox don’t believe it but they are not Catholics.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

My understanding is that this is not true, that Eastern Catholics are required to believe it… Eastern Orthodox don’t believe it but they are not Catholics.

Our Eastern theologies and understandings have been reconciled to Catholic dogma by those who certainly could explain it better than we, the laity, ever could, but we are most assuredly not required to discard them simply because we are in communion with Rome. On the contrary, of late, we Eastern Catholics are often scolded by Rome for not being Orthodox enough (the irony, of course, is that for some time we were “Latinized”).

The concept of Theosis is at the very heart of Eastern theology.

We believe that our process of Theosis continues after death, in a different realm. We may likely die in an imperfect state of grace, and will have to continue to prepare ourselves to be worthy before God after we pass from this life. Prayers for the dead afre helpful in achieving that goal, and we do pray often for the dead in our tradition.

I just recently viewed a video of Fr. Barron explaining “Why we Pray for the Dead”. He explained this in a manner very consistent with the Eastern point of view. Surely we would consider Fr. Barron’s views as credible interpretations of Catholic Church teachings.

youtube.com/watch?v=CVH8hNsBJdo

 

[ConstantineTG]

The phrase " absence of God" is correct!
Check Mr. Webster for a definition.

But if God is absent from hell, then hell cannot exist in whatever level.