Can you be a Catholic and not believe in Purgatory?

[ConstantineTG]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
and those in heaven can still be prayed for to increase their experience of God. Yes, in our Divine Liturgies we do still offer prayers FOR the saints.
UNQUOTE

In the Latin Mass I’ve never seen this nor heard of this. Could you possibly give an example of a liturgy that offers prayers FOR the saints.

In the Bible, early christians were sometimes referred to as saints and referred to each other as saints. So in this context it would make sense to pray for the saints.

Just a thought.

Alfonsus has a great explanation. And to add, the experience of Theosis of course is difference as we are rewarded according to our own merit. But since we believe that prayers can save those who merit less, why not increase the reward of those who already merit heaven?

 

[ConstantineTG]

But in the same token we believe in Heaven or Purgatory. No just heaven or hell. So back to the question at hand, if purgatory is not believed, and they are judged at the moment of their death, how can praying for them to gain a lets say better position in heaven? It is given at their moment of death! That is where I am having a problem seeing your Church teaching.

I have read what you have given, and thank you for that. But you must admit is does conflict with the final judgement at the moment of death.

The judgement at the moment of death is called particular judgement. Final judgement happens at the end of time after the Final Resurrection and Second Coming of Christ. While our prayers have no effect on the particular judgement, it will in the Final Judgement.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Good evening everybody

I was thinking this earlier today, and I wanted to hear your thoughts…

Thanks and God bless!
Melani

It would be pretty selfish of me to not help my fellow catholics in Purgatory when my prayers are precisely what will help them get out of Purgatory.

It’s like going to a certain Catholic Parrish and caring only about the people that go to 8:00 am Mass…but those catholics that go to 10:00am mass - well those I don’t care about.

Are we not the Body of Christ? Church triumphant in heaven; church militant on earth and church suffering in Purgatory?

Purgatory is God’s mercy because none of us are so pure and so holy and so sinless at the moment of our death - that we would go straight to the presence of God.

I’d be a pretty lousy catholic if I only believed part of what my catholicism professes.

 

[thomas_jd]

I do but it still does not change the fact that if a person denies Christ at the time of their death, it does not matter. No prayers will help them.

You cannot pray someone out of hell. When we are judged by Christ it is OUR own free will to reject or accept him. If what you are saying, our prayers will help someone even if they reject Christ at the time of their death, I strongly disagree.

The prayers for our loved ones are still for the ones who have by their own free will accepted Christ and are in a state of Grace.

So back to the point rather you are praying for someone who has left this world a thousand years ago, or I guess in your way of thinking, maybe someone who is yet to exist, or someone who is just a baby today, it makes no difference. It is not our prayers that have been prayed for us that save us, It is Christ to begin with who saves us, and our willingness to accept him and do his work that saves us, and our ability to repent and ask for forgiveness and quit our sin that helps us.

But the point is when a person does leave this world in our time, it is then that they are Judged. It is our prayers that we pray in the present, or yes we can pray for ourself now in the present for the future when we die for that matter to help us. But it still does not change the fact that you still have to be in the grace of God when you die.

And back to the whole point of this, if you die, and are indeed IN a state of Grace, but need to be purified then the prayers from someone here can save you thousands of years in this time of the Purging time. The prayers of loved ones in this world are such a large help to our loved ones.

But how can the prayers in the past present or future help someone who has been Judged at the time of their death? As you mentioned God is outside of time and is well aware of those prayers that are to come, did come etc, and they are taken into effect at the time of death, when Judgement was complete.

No matter that God is outside of time, has nothing to do with us being Judged AT THE time of our death, when the soul leaves the body is this world judgement is rendered.

Can you see God being outside of time does not work for me?

In the O.T. they always prayed for the dead. We are told in the N.T. that those who die in the grace of God will enter heaven but only after a purification process. But what you are trying to say in a way, I believe is, that by your prayers you can eliminate the process.

This is not true, it is not our prayers that we prayed or did not pray that eliminates this, it is our judgement at the time of our death.

Now if your would say that our prayers in the past present and future for a person could eliminate the time of the process I could actually go with you on this. But to say that our prayers actually eliminate the entire process, I cannot agree.

If they still have some cleansing to be done, it has to be done no matter how hard we pray. God has rendered his Judgement.

Prayers are efficacious to those in purgatory. They may shorten their chastisment , they may bring comfort and solace. Prayers may be efficacious to those in Heaven. God may redirect those prayers to someone in need , living or dead.
Prayers for those in hell cannot alter , cannot bring about a movement from the absence of God to God. That judgement was rendered.

A prayer is a plea ,an asking of God to grant us our boon.
St. Steven was being stoned to death, he knelt and echoed Jesus " forgive them"
One of those that he asked God to forgive was St. Paul. St. Augustine said that we would not have St. Paul as we know him except thru the prayer of St Stephen!
Faith can move mountains but prayer can move Heaven.

 

[rinnie]

The judgement at the moment of death is called particular judgement. Final judgement happens at the end of time after the Final Resurrection and Second Coming of Christ. While our prayers have no effect on the particular judgement, it will in the Final Judgement.

But how? You are judged at Particular Judgement if you are going to heaven or hell.

The Final Judgement is resurrection of all the dead of both just and unjust.

The last Judgement is simply Christ returning in his glory. He will simply separate the sheep from the goats.

The last Judgement will just only reveal to a further degree the good a person has done or failed to do in his earthly life.

But our prayers in no way change the Judgement that was made at the time of death. The decision was made. The last Judgement in no way changes the particular Judgement that was made at the time of Death.

Again the only difference is in the Last Judgement Christ returns again in glory and we have the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[rinnie]

Prayers are efficacious to those in purgatory. They may shorten their chastisment , they may bring comfort and solace. Prayers may be efficacious to those in Heaven. God may redirect those prayers to someone in need , living or dead.
Prayers for those in hell cannot alter , cannot bring about a movement from the absence of God to God. That judgement was rendered.

A prayer is a plea ,an asking of God to grant us our boon.
St. Steven was being stoned to death, he knelt and echoed Jesus " forgive them"
One of those that he asked God to forgive was St. Paul. St. Augustine said that we would not have St. Paul as we know him except thru the prayer of St Stephen!
Faith can move mountains but prayer can move Heaven.

I agree!

 

[ringil]

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

Thank you.

I believe that, in some ways, folks actually WANT to believe Purgatory in a mini-Hell. I believe it is a psychological desire to be punished due to guilt.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

ByzCath:

And these Roman Catholics you have talked to who speak of purgatory as a place of pain are mistaken in their beliefs and should not be listened to for what the Church actually Teaches.

Purgatory is not an actual place. It is a process of purification.

Don’t speak your opinion as if it were gospel truth. There’s nothing contrary to Church Teaching about Purgatory being a place or the Holy Souls suffering pain. The East and West may have very different views regarding what exactly happens, though we’re united by the general Teaching. But do not impose your views on the traditional beliefs of Latin Catholics.

 

[ringil]

Don’t speak your opinion as if it were gospel truth. There’s nothing contrary to Church Teaching about Purgatory being a place or the Holy Souls suffering pain. The East and West may have very different views regarding what exactly happens, though we’re united by the general Teaching. But do not impose your views on the traditional beliefs of Latin Catholics.

The Church has simply made no authoritative statement of the more concrete nature of Purgatory. I do believe that the Church does teach that Purgatory occurs “in Time”- that there can be “less or more”.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

The Church has simply made no authoritative statement of the more concrete nature of Purgatory.

Exactly. So don’t say that Catholics that believe such-and-such within the lawful bounds of Holy Mother Church’s teaching are mistaken and you (not you personally, in general) hold the gospel truth. We’re free to believe either way here, there’s a lot of room.

 

[ringil]

Exactly. So don’t say that Catholics that believe such-and-such within the lawful bounds of Holy Mother Church’s teaching are mistaken and you (not you personally, in general) hold the gospel truth. We’re free to believe either way here, there’s a lot of room.

Sure, I’d say you are right on that. I guess we will, hopefully, see one day.