Can you be a catholic if you do not do any of the following:

[Guyonthestreet]

Accept Israel as the God given homeland of the jews

Pray to any saint whatever, including Mary

Own or ever intend to own, or have on display in your home, or about your person, a statue, icon, cross, crucifix, picture, medal, scapula or anything else like that

Would it be sufficient to simply:

Go to Mass every sunday

Confess your sins

Partake of the Eucharist.

Keep the commandments.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes and yes
none of those things in your first question is required, and the Catholic Church has no such teaching about Israel in any case.
What is required is what you state, attend Mass on Sundays and Holy days, obey the commandments and laws of the Church, including those regarding reception of Eucharist and confession, heed the teachings of scripture and the doctrines of the Church. If you obey and heed you will perforce be doing works of mercy and conducting yourself in the manner Christ intended, and moreover furthering your relationship with him.

What you must do however is accept the authority of the Church which comes from Christ himself to teach about the sacraments, the crucifix, Mary, saints etc.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

What you must do however is accept the authority of the Church which comes from Christ himself to teach about the sacraments, the crucifix, Mary, saints etc.

Thanks annie. How would it be though, if you just never gave any of the teachings on, say Mary, any thought as to whether you personalllyt agreed or disagreed. I dont think Im being clear, but for example, the church teaches Mary was assumed into heaven. I think that’s a doctrine so must be accepted. Am I right. Ok, so suppose you just never gave it any thought what so ever, either to agree or disagree. You kept your whole and entire focus on the Eucharist and mass. I know Mary is mentioned in some prayers in the mass I think, but wheere would you stand if you just left it at that?

 

[mark_a]

but for example, the church teaches Mary was assumed into heaven. I think that’s a doctrine so must be accepted. Am I right.

It’s a doctrine that can’t be denied.

Ok, so suppose you just never gave it any thought what so ever, either to agree or disagree. You kept your whole and entire focus on the Eucharist and mass. I know Mary is mentioned in some prayers in the mass I think, but wheere would you stand if you just left it at that?

You would be missing out, but you’d be ok.

 

[dzheremi]

I’ll give these a shot. I have a feeling I have a little bit differing perspective than Annie, though I’m not going to say that you should listen to me and not her. You should visit several priests and listen to THEM.

Accept Israel as the God given homeland of the jews

Rome recognizes both Israel and Palestine. Whether or not this encroaches on the idea that Israel is the given homeland of the Jews is probably in the eye of the beholder, but I have never heard any Catholic priest say that we Catholics must accept the behaviors and rationalizations of the modern state of Israel on Biblical or other grounds. I personally don’t support Israel, and I have talked to multiple priests about this issue, and none told me I was any less a Catholic for my personal convictions, however unpopular they may be.

Pray to any saint whatever, including Mary

The rosary contains what could be construed as a prayer to Mary (the “Hail Mary”), so in order to say the rosary properly you would need to say that. To the extent that you may be told to say X number of rosaries as penitence for your sins, choosing to not pray them as a matter of principle is unacceptable. I could imagine that if you have a problem with the Hail Mary (and I myself had trouble understanding why we say it until well into RCIA), you should be able to explain whatever problem you are having to your priest and/or RCIA leader. The Church recognizes that our past can present certain obstacles to correctly forming our consciences to Church doctrine. But, if you are serious about being Catholic, you will hungrily seek answers, and accept that your prejudices are nothing in the face of the truth of Christ’s Church.

Own or ever intend to own, or have on display in your home, or about your person, a statue, icon, cross, crucifix, picture, medal, scapula or anything else like that

I myself own only one small icon (of Sts. Cyril and Methodius, given to me at my confirmation). I do not own a cross because the terms of my lease agreement at this apartment forbid me from nailing anything to the walls, and I feel that it would be very disrespectful to simply leave a cross lying on a table, on a nightstand, or in a drawer somewhere. If I am required to display a cross in my home, this is news to me. I don’t see how this could be the case, since I’m surely not the only Catholic who rents.

I do intend to display one as soon as I can, though. The cross is a reminder of my faith as surely as any of the Creeds are.

Would it be sufficient to simply:

Go to Mass every sunday

Confess your sins

Partake of the Eucharist.

Keep the commandments.

I am not sure how to respond to this, since Catholicism does not work like a checklist. Surely there are Catholics who show up to Mass even if they cannot take the Eucharist, and many who also cannot go to Mass on Sunday due to inflexible work schedules or other limitations. While everything that you have mentioned above is an integral part of being a Catholic, if it were simple a matter of these 4 things and not any of the associated parts of Catholic life, there would be very little involved in being Catholic outside of ritual. This is not the case. Catholicism is the way by which we live our commitment to Christ in all ways, all the time, always.

I pray that I am just as Catholic in between confessions as I am during them.

May God guide you in all of your journeys.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

It’s a doctrine that can’t be denied.

You would be missing out, but you’d be ok.

Thanks mark. If the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus the messiah, how could a person bee missing out as you say. Surely you can have no greater blessing bestowed upon you, from anyone else, ever, than to have the Body and Blood of Christ inside you. How could not praying to Mary, or Jude, or Patrick or whoever, leave one missing out. What would be missing.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I’ll give these a shot.

Thank you for your considered response. I have huge issues with all things catholic at the moment but Im still curious. My biggest stumbling blocks are the whole Papal thing, the corrupt politics as I see them, the whole statue, pictures, scapulas thing.

I believe in God. Any religion I would adhere to would have to have God, and only God, as it’s entire and sole focus. For me, personally, the whole saints, rituals, thing is just a waste of time and a distraction. My entire and only concern would be on God alone. That is why Im especially interested in catolics believe in the Eucharist. I cant think of anything more awesome.

 

[dzheremi]

Indeed, the Eucharist IS the most awesome of all. It is the entire reason to be Catholic! If we didn’t have the Eucharist, or to put it another way, the real presence in the Eucharist, we would have nothing.

I suppose the reasoning I’ve internalized for “everything else” is that everything else helps to lead us to the Eucharist. I personally do not view them as a distraction, though my level of personal observance of all of these things is variable (e.g., I do not pray through the saints as often as others might, I bet).

For instance, Church teachings on Mary have led me to an entirely new understanding of Our Lord’s relationship with her, and her subsequent importance within early Christianity. This has led me to the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which has deepened my understanding of the historical roots of the faith. The Eucharist is, of course, paramount among those early traditions. In learning about Mary, about the Eucharist, about all those things that my previous faith tradition did not approach in any sort of historical manner, I have come to approach Him in an entirely new way, with new eyes and a soul reborn.

I have found this sort of learning process replaying itself with every doctrine that is new to me. It is all for the glory of Christ, because as I learn more about my faith, I learn to love Christ in more ways. If there were anything in the traditions that did not point to Christ, it would not be accepted. After all, who are the saints if not examples of men and women who lived their lives for the glory of Christ?

 

[LilyM]

Firstly - sure you can choose to not pray to Mary or the Saints, but why would you? It’s like being an athlete and having free access to help from those who’ve achieved the highest degree of excellence in your sport, and refusing to utilise it - it makes things a lot more difficult for you than they need be.

As far as your ‘list’ of things Catholics must do - there are more precepts of the Church you haven’t mentioned - you have to also fast and abstain on the required days, attend Mass on other Holy Days of Obligation where possible (not just Sundays), and respect the Church’s laws regarding marriage in particular.

And basically accept all the other Church teachings that are required belief! The whole kit and caboodle of dogmas regarding Christ, the Trinity, the Blessed mother, the sacraments, Papal Infallibility …

And, as has been said, something more besides. These things are the bare minimum - to be a GOOD rather than adequate Catholic you’d need to go beyond mere adherence to doctrine and practices.

 

[Reuben_J]

… I have huge issues with all things catholic at the moment but Im still curious. My biggest stumbling blocks are the whole Papal thing, the corrupt politics as I see them, the whole statue, pictures, scapulas thing.

I believe in God. Any religion I would adhere to would have to have God, and only God, as it’s entire and sole focus. For me, personally, the whole saints, rituals, thing is just a waste of time and a distraction. My entire and only concern would be on God alone. That is why Im especially interested in catolics believe in the Eucharist. I cant think of anything more awesome.

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Glad that you’re asking these concerns. That’s quite a lot of things and it’s not possible to address adequately in a single thread. But I think I understand what’s you’re trying to say.

I would say Catholicism is a way of life and belief.

You are right the Eucharist is the highest form of worship in the Catholic Church. But a way of life is not just the Eucharist. If one receives God in his real body and blood there, reverence dictates that one must be prepared to do it in a way befitting the occasion. That’s why what one does outside of it is important.

Personally I would like to think that receiving God in the Eucharist is the culmination of all that I do to prepare for it. Receiving it is one part but even more important is what I do after receiving it. Among many things, am I a witness and a disciple of Jesus? Do I bring the Jesus that I received to the people? These aspects of Christian’s life need more than just the Eucharist.

Thus all other things besides the Eucharist are important parts in the life of a Catholic.

God bless.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Thanks LilyM and Reuben. LilyM, how would things be more difficult for me than they need to be? I believe in God. I would like to be able to recieve God in the eucharist as I believe in the literal interpretation of John. But all I need is God. To praise honor glorify worship and giove thanks to God. Noone and nothing else. How would praying to a saint or Mary help me? I already have acess to God. I dont need to go through anyone else to spreak to Him, I dont need pictures, or statues or rosarys or anything else. Or am I wrong?

 

[LilyM]

Thanks LilyM and Reuben. LilyM, how would things be more difficult for me than they need to be? I believe in God. I would like to be able to recieve God in the eucharist as I believe in the literal interpretation of John. But all I need is God. To praise honor glorify worship and giove thanks to God. Noone and nothing else. How would praying to a saint or Mary help me? I already have acess to God. I dont need to go through anyone else to spreak to Him, I dont need pictures, or statues or rosarys or anything else. Or am I wrong?

Aah, the old ‘Jesus/God and me alone’ fallacy. Christian life, Christian prayer, was never designed to be a solo sport, but a team event.

James in his epistle TELLS us ‘the prayers of a righteous man avail much’ - in other words they are POWERFUL. And who more righteous than the heavenly saints who are perfect (they have to be to be admitted to God’s presence)? It makes sense to seek their most powerful prayers.

Not to mention all the places in Paul’s epistles where he seeks prayers for himself from others, and exhorts followers to pray for each other. Why would he bother if the prayers of others were useless to himself, to his readers or to us?

Since the prayers of earthly saints are so important that Paul devotes a lot of energy to seeking them and commanding people to pray for each other, much more so the prayers of the heavenly saints.

I never said you need Rosaries, pictures or statues (although they help - we’re visual people, after all. I know I like to have pictures of my loved ones around me, it helps me to keep them more in my thoughts. That includes my dear heavenly friends).

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks LilyM and Reuben. LilyM, how would things be more difficult for me than they need to be? I believe in God. I would like to be able to recieve God in the eucharist as I believe in the literal interpretation of John. But all I need is God. To praise honor glorify worship and giove thanks to God. Noone and nothing else. How would praying to a saint or Mary help me? I already have acess to God. I dont need to go through anyone else to spreak to Him, I dont need pictures, or statues or rosarys or anything else. Or am I wrong?

I am still on the internet and see this. Just my thought – nobody can receive the body of God in a state of sin and inequity. Yes, as sinners we receive Christ but we can’t be in heaven as sinners. Sorry for the simplistic logic, I’m merely trying to make a point. You’d be asking this question – can you receive God in the Holy Eucharist the way you are without having prepared for it? We believe the answer is no because you have to be holy and be Christ-like in order to receive the body of God who is holy and Christ-like. The Christ-like part is my paraphrase.

The other things you mentioned which are very Catholics are to help them one way or the other to achieve being Christ-like and be holy. Now not all Catholics have statues/icons and not all are avid intercessors. You can do without these but like an earlier poster said, you may miss out on the grace and the tools that are already there. What I’m trying to say if you love the Eucharist and what to receive it you’ll work toward ‘qualifying’ for it.

Frankly I do not see your position being a problem against Catholicism unless you say statues and intercessors of the saints are sin which we think are not.

God bless.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok, so suppose you just never gave it any thought what so ever, either to agree or disagree. You kept your whole and entire focus on the Eucharist and mass. I know Mary is mentioned in some prayers in the mass I think, but wheere would you stand if you just left it at that?

that is fine as long as you do not dispute the Church’s teaching authority. We are not obliged to take up every private devotion the Church allows. Is there a point behind your question that you wish to push?

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Thanks again lilyM and Reuben. Is it permissible to join a church program to explore catholicism rather than with the intention of being a catholic. Im very far from that position, but it is the real presence belief of the church that attracts me. LilyM I see your point. But it seems to me - well now anyways - that any prayer to anyone else is taking away from prayertime I could be giving to God. I believe God knows all my needs and will provide for me. I offer prayers of thanks and petition to God. I really dont understand why I would pray to X to pray for me to God when I can pray to God. Its not really just me and God as you describe it - surely everything we do and say should be focused on God and God alone. Its like me asking my sister to say Hi and thanks to my mother. Why would I do that? Surely my mother would appreciate me going directly to her and saying Hi and thanks, rather than hearing it second hand through my sister
In terms of authority - I dont think Id have an issue there. I just might not agree with it all. I can accept authority without agreeing with some of the issues. Im ex military - I carried out commands all day long, left right and centre - I maybe agreed with like 10% of them

 

[Guyonthestreet]

that is fine as long as you do not dispute the Church’s teaching authority. We are not obliged to take up every private devotion the Church allows. Is there a point behind your question that you wish to push?

Thanks annie - Im not trying to push a point. Im curious about the catholic church because of the eucharist. Im just exploring thats all.

 

[1holycatholic]

Thanks again lilyM and Reuben. Is it permissible to join a church program to explore catholicism rather than with the intention of being a catholic. Im very far from that position, but it is the real presence belief of the church that attracts me. LilyM I see your point. But it seems to me - well now anyways - that any prayer to anyone else is taking away from prayertime I could be giving to God. I believe God knows all my needs and will provide for me. I offer prayers of thanks and petition to God. I really dont understand why I would pray to X to pray for me to God when I can pray to God. Its not really just me and God as you describe it - surely everything we do and say should be focused on God and God alone. Its like me asking my sister to say Hi and thanks to my mother. Why would I do that? Surely my mother would appreciate me going directly to her and saying Hi and thanks, rather than hearing it second hand through my sister
In terms of authority - I dont think Id have an issue there. I just might not agree with it all. I can accept authority without agreeing with some of the issues. Im ex military - I carried out commands all day long, left right and centre - I maybe agreed with like 10% of them

You can join RCIA which is the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. It is the course of instruction for those interested in entering the Catholic Church. There is is no pressure or obligation to convert. They are classes usually held from September through Easter. Contact your local Parish or Diocese for information.

 

[Corki]

I am neither Lily nor Ruben but the answer to your question is yes.

Many parishes, especially larger ones, have enquirer progams that are for people like you to investigate, learn and ask all your questions about the Catholic faith. Just call the parish office and ask. Welcome.

 

[LilyM]

Thanks again lilyM and Reuben. Is it permissible to join a church program to explore catholicism rather than with the intention of being a catholic. Im very far from that position, but it is the real presence belief of the church that attracts me. LilyM I see your point. But it seems to me - well now anyways - that any prayer to anyone else is taking away from prayertime I could be giving to God. I believe God knows all my needs and will provide for me. I offer prayers of thanks and petition to God. I really dont understand why I would pray to X to pray for me to God when I can pray to God. Its not really just me and God as you describe it - surely everything we do and say should be focused on God and God alone. Its like me asking my sister to say Hi and thanks to my mother. Why would I do that? Surely my mother would appreciate me going directly to her and saying Hi and thanks, rather than hearing it second hand through my sister
In terms of authority - I dont think Id have an issue there. I just might not agree with it all. I can accept authority without agreeing with some of the issues. Im ex military - I carried out commands all day long, left right and centre - I maybe agreed with like 10% of them

Of course you can go through the RCIA process just to learn about the faith - you’re not obligated to join at the end or anything.

As for prayer - if you know your sister is closer to your mother, and sees her every day, why wouldn’t you ask her to say hi for you, at least sometimes? Surely your mother would be very hurt if you NEVER spoke to your sister who you know your mother loves dearly, and instead ignored her completely?

More importantly, prayer to a saint IS prayer to God, but the prayers are made through and in company with that saint.

Like seeing your boss to ask for a payrise, but taking a couple of co-workers, who you know the boss is very friendly with, along with you when you go. It gives you moral support and also the boss pays more attention when he knows your co-workers are on your side and think you should have the rise.

 

[1holycatholic]

I am neither Lily nor Ruben but the answer to your question is yes.

Many parishes, especially larger ones, have enquirer progams that are for people like you to investigate, learn and ask all your questions about the Catholic faith. Just call the parish office and ask. Welcome.

That’s RCIA.

I would think that every parish has it. I’m not sure how the Eastern Rites handle enquirers.