Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[Riley08]

The pope himself said a Catholic could good conscience support the wars He very specifically stated such support is not morally equivalent to supporting abortion

Why is supporting the death penalty any different? A culture of death is a culture of death regardless of when you want to kill the human!

 

[starshiptrooper]

YEP and today we have the EXACT situation where the Corporate elitist are both the King and BIG GOVERNMENT disregarding the rights of the working class by monopolizing the wealth of this nation and stealing just wages from the working class and transferring it to the defacto BIG GOVERNMENT, Corporate America! And after they have plundered the working class and squandered their pirated wealth they very nearly bankrupt America! FInally, for the icing on the cake, they rob tax payers for hundreds of billions of dollars and then turn around and reward failure and thievery by handing out million dollar bonuses to their royal court. Not even King James of Britain trampled on the rights of the American colonist this bad.

IN CHRIST,

David

A large amount of empty rhetoric and few facts. If you really think our situation is comparable to that of our ancestors, I suggest reading the Declaration of Independence.

Why is supporting the death penalty any different? A culture of death is a culture of death regardless of when you want to kill the human!

Do you really believe there is no difference between murdering an innocent baby and justly executing a guilty murderer?

 

[starshiptrooper]

Why is supporting the death penalty any different? A culture of death is a culture of death regardless of when you want to kill the human!

Do you really think there is no difference between murdering an innocent baby and justly executing a guilty murderer?

 

[Faithdancer]

A large amount of empty rhetoric and few facts. If you really think our situation is comparable to that of our ancestors, I suggest reading the Declaration of Independence.Do you really believe there is no difference between murdering an innocent baby and justly executing a guilty murderer?

Surely there is a great deal of difference, all can agree. One spares the innocent, the other spares the guilty. To spare the unborn is right and just, but not merciful, as the unborn are innocent and have need of protection, not mercy. Mercy is extended to the vanquished and to the guilty, in the hope that in continuing to live they will come to repent of their sins, and make atonement. This is the mercy that Christ extended to the guilty- to the adulteress, the tax collector, even to the murderer of Christians, Saul, on the road to Damascus. To spare the murderer from execution may not be easy, but it* is* Christ-like.

 

[estesbob]

Why is supporting the death penalty any different? A culture of death is a culture of death regardless of when you want to kill the human!

Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Captial Punishment is not .

. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

*Pope Benedict XVI

 

[starshiptrooper]

Surely there is a great deal of difference, all can agree. One spares the innocent, the other spares the guilty. To spare the unborn is right and just, but not merciful, as the unborn are innocent and have need of protection, not mercy. Mercy is extended to the vanquished and to the guilty, in the hope that in continuing to live they will come to repent of their sins, and make atonement. This is the mercy that Christ extended to the guilty- to the adulteress, the tax collector, even to the murderer of Christians, Saul, on the road to Damascus. To spare the murderer from execution may not be easy, but it* is* Christ-like.

Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. Cruelty towards the innocent is definitely not Christ-like.

 

[davidmlamb]

A large amount of empty rhetoric and few facts. If you really think our situation is comparable to that of our ancestors, I suggest reading the Declaration of Independence.QUOTE]

The Decleration of Idependence is simply the early American British Colonist formally declaring their Independance from the British Empire. So you obviously don’t know what your talking about. Canada never declared their Independence from Britain and Canadians are not being oppressed. Whether or not my words are empty rhetoric is for my readers to decide. I have recent history backing me up and my readers are quite aware of what happened in 2008 and why. Even Pope Benedict XVI condemned American captalism and deregulation as the culprit and he was branded a Communist for it. Many right wing Catholics left the Church and joined evangelical churches like the Southern Baptist over it.

Pax Christi,

David

 

[yosupman]

the hard core republicans believe in endless wars financed with debt. The Iraq are is one of the greatest modern disasters from a foreign policy perspective. I vote for pro-life candidates, but a lot of them hold this awful distorted view of America’s place in the world.

when it comes down to it, as long as one holds the teachings of the church, and votes for prolife people, you can be a democrat. Yes their platform is terrible on family issues. But if you want to work to change that, go for it.

But folks, the church has never taught that the government must provide universal health care. the catholic church teaches healthcare must be available to all people. It doesn’t teach a distribution method.

I would say Government health care in the US would be a disaster, just as bad or worse than the “Bush” wars!!!

 

[starshiptrooper]

The Decleration of Idependence is simply the early American British Colonist formally declaring their Independance from the British Empire. So you obviously don’t know what your talking about.

Unfortunately for you, I do know what I am talking about. The Declaration of Independence lists the reasons our ancestors revolted. Read those reasons, the current situation does not have much in common with the lot of the American Colonists.

Canada never declared their Independence from Britain and Canadians are not being oppressed.

So?

I have recent history backing me up and my readers are quite aware of what happened in 2008 and why.

The government tampered with the nation’s money and interfered with home mortgages causing the present economic crisis.

Even Pope Benedict XVI condemned American captalism and deregulation as the culprit and he was branded a Communist for it.

If I want to know why the economy failed, I will ask those who specialize in economics. I will not ask the Pope.

 

[ManOnFire]

As for libertarians, I’m still shocked by Catholic friends who sound like Randians without knowing who Ayn Rand was.

It’s because liberals keep dreaming of helping those in need, many of whom are obese (spent too much on food) and who find money for entertainment and fashions. Liberals then somehow believe that justice is served by taking from those who earned it to give more of it to those who didn’t, when they are not starving in the first place. There’s no foreseeable end to this blindness, so they go Ayn Rand.

 

[ManOnFire]

Ah Therese, beware.
Remember the words from Louis Carrol: ‘When I use a word, it means what I mean it to mean, nothing ore, and nothing less.’
‘Conservatives’ use the word ‘Liberal’ as a gratuitous insult.
Liberal actually has its roots in frredom, and in giving freedom.
Our Lord said: ‘The truth will make you free’.
He taught us how to be free in an imprisoned world. I guess that made Him a liberal.
G–d gave us the freedom to sin. I guess then G_d must be a liberal.
What is conservative? It has its roots in preserving tradition.
Actually Our Lord had some rough words about tradition.
If you mean political conservatism, then that seems to advocate honest money, but here is the second edge to that sword. Money is a tool, not a master in itself. It is only a simplified means of exchanging labour for food.
If we follow rules, too rigid to allow society to flourish, in order to protect the value of ‘saved’ money, then we are elevating money to be a principle of government. At that point, we are allowing the tool to rule the artisan, whereas the artisan should rule the tool. At this point, money becomes Mammon. Those who worship Mammon, are by definition, not Christians, for Our Lord said: ‘You cannot serve G_d and Mammon’.
So now, you have to look at the meaning of your words, and decide:
Which is nearest to Our Lord’s message? To free the enslaved, or to enslave the free.

Here in the US, when don’t have hordes of people on death’s door in the streets. Many people are wasting money on fashions and entertainment. So, do you think the govt should take money from those who earned it and give it to those who didn’t is just in light of your claim that “the status of money has been unjustly elevated?” Unjustly taking money from one to give it to another is not freedom for one half of the parties involved. Of course, one would need to be a bigot not to realize it. If you believe that the status of money has been unjustly elevated, then you would be claiming that money is less important and you would focus your attention on wondering why half of all kids are born out of wedlock by men who don’t want marriage (true love). Here in the US, it’s the true love that’s lacking, not the money.

 

[davidmlamb]

Here in the US, when don’t have hordes of people on death’s door in the streets. Many people are wasting money on fashions and entertainment. So, do you think the govt should take money from those who earned it and give it to those who didn’t is just in light of your claim that “the status of money has been unjustly elevated?” . .

YES!!!

No one may appropriate surplus goods solely for his own private use when others lack the bare necessities of life. In short, “as the Fathers of the Church and other eminent theologians tell us, the right of private property may never be exercised to the detriment of the common good.” **When “private gain and basic community needs conflict with one another,” it is for the public authorities “to seek a solution to these questions, with the active involvement of individual citizens and social groups.” (23)**26.

However, certain concepts have somehow arisen out of these new conditions and insinuated themselves into the fabric of human society. These concepts present profit as the chief spur to economic progress, free competition as the guiding norm of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right, having no limits nor concomitant social obligations.

This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the “international imperialism of money.”(26) Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough ); let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)

But if it is true that a type of capitalism, as it is commonly called, has given rise to hardships, unjust practices, and fratricidal conflicts that persist to this day, it would be a mistake to attribute these evils to the rise of industrialization itself, for they really derive from the pernicious economic concepts that grew up along with it. We must in all fairness acknowledge the vital role played by labor systemization and industrial organization in the task of development. --Pope Paul VI POPULAR PROGRESSO

 

[Faithdancer]

Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. Cruelty towards the innocent is definitely not Christ-like.

Ah, but using your example of a murderer, the murderer only continues to be cruel to the innocent if he is allowed to be cruel to the innocent, i.e. allowed to re-enter society. This assumes that there are no innocents locked up in prison, to whom this murderer will have access. But if the murderer is allowed to continue to live the rest of his life in prison so that he can meditate on his crimes, repent and make societal restitution through prison labor, how is the concept of mercy violated?

At any rate, your statement is prima facie in direct contradiction to the teachings and actions of Jesus Christ. Do you deny that He was merciful toward the murderer, Saul of Tarsus? Do you deny that as a result of this act of mercy, in which Jesus Christ blinded Saul rather than striking him dead right there on the road, Saul experienced an immediate conversion and became a great champion of Christianity? And if Saul, the relentless persecutor of Christians, can be converted, who are you or I to say that other murderers can not, at the very least, repent and atone?

Did not Christ forgive even his own murderers as he suffered on the cross? You may choose to elevate your own sense of justice and morality above that of Our Lord. As for me, I dare not.

 

[Eugenius]

Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Captial Punishment is not.

What about cases when it was later discovered the person executed was innocent, especially when the sitting governor discovered this before the execution and did nothing to stop it? And what about cases where there is a religious conversion and another soul saved?

 

[Eugenius]

Here in the US, when don’t have hordes of people on death’s door in the streets. Many people are wasting money on fashions and entertainment. So, do you think the govt should take money from those who earned it and give it to those who didn’t is just in light of your claim that “the status of money has been unjustly elevated?” Unjustly taking money from one to give it to another is not freedom for one half of the parties involved. Of course, one would need to be a bigot not to realize it. If you believe that the status of money has been unjustly elevated, then you would be claiming that money is less important and you would focus your attention on wondering why half of all kids are born out of wedlock by men who don’t want marriage (true love). Here in the US, it’s the true love that’s lacking, not the money.

Do you actually know anything about the poor, the disabled and the homeless or are you speaking in gross generalities? You must live in an affluent area, the inner city people that I see everyday are not wasting their money on fashion and entertainment. Executives who gut the American workforce so greedy investors can get a higher rate of return are not just and holy. The idea that these people make decisions that decimate the lives of others for personal gain and then feel no sense of accountability is repugnant.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. Cruelty towards the innocent is definitely not Christ-like.

Our Lord said: ‘judge not, that ye be not judged’
If you set yourself up as a judge, then you will face judgement yourself.
Let him without sin cast the first stone.

 

[estesbob]

What about cases when it was later discovered the person executed was innocent, especially when the sitting governor discovered this before the execution and did nothing to stop it? And what about cases where there is a religious conversion and another soul saved?

I oopose Capital Punishment in all circumstances. The Church does not, The Church has made it clear that support of abortion disqualifies tone from recievieng a Catholics vote. The Church ha made it eqaully clear that support of capital punishment does not

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Surely there is a great deal of difference, all can agree. One spares the innocent, the other spares the guilty. To spare the unborn is right and just, but not merciful, as the unborn are innocent and have need of protection, not mercy. Mercy is extended to the vanquished and to the guilty, in the hope that in continuing to live they will come to repent of their sins, and make atonement. This is the mercy that Christ extended to the guilty- to the adulteress, the tax collector, even to the murderer of Christians, Saul, on the road to Damascus. To spare the murderer from execution may not be easy, but it* is* Christ-like.

Dear Friend, I look at your signature, and I wonder how many have a mistaken translation of the Latin in their head.
“And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
In truth, ‘as’ can be taken as ‘in like manner’, but also, it can be understood as ‘because’.
It is clear from the context that the latter meaning is intended.
Our Lord was quite clear, he asked who had a problem with his brother, and came to the Temple to make sacrifice. He sent them away to make peace first, then to make sacrifice.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Well, perhaps the converse should be asked:
Can you be Christian and Conservative?
If your Capiltalism is any kind of Monetarism, then you are a slave of Mammon, then, as our Lord said, the answer is a resounding ‘NO’.
One might look at ‘Southern Baptists’, and listen to their Old Testament ‘Bible Bashing’ and ask: ‘Are these so-called Christians more like the Judeans our Lord condemned?’

 

[estesbob]

It’s because liberals keep dreaming of helping those in need, many of whom are obese (spent too much on food) and who find money for entertainment and fashions. Liberals then somehow believe that justice is served by taking from those who earned it to give more of it to those who didn’t, when they are not starving in the first place. There’s no foreseeable end to this blindness, so they go Ayn Rand.

The problem is the idea prevalent among those who are religious on the Left that one can fulfill their obligation to care for the poor merely by voting for someone who promises to take somebody else’s money and do it for them.

The Church tells us that we have a personal obligation to care for the poor and needy. The Church also says that the government has a place in caring for the poor and the needy. . It does not, however, lay out the details of how this government assistance should be and neither endorses nor opposes either the conservative or the liberal approach to government assistance. . The problem we continually see, especially among Catholic Democrats, is their trying to twist the teachings of the church to rationalize voting for pro-abortion candidates under the guise their solutions for other social issue mitigates their support for this abject evil.

. Of course all sorts of other rationalizations are lused . In the bizarro world of the Democrat Catholic those who oppose abortion really promote it and those who call for unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand are really pro-life. . Archbishop Chaput address this nonsensensical attitude in 2008:

Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.