Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[gearhead]

Did you read my quotation? I know there are other life issues.

Okay. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that you were using “life” as a euphemism for the abortion issue.

But do they take 4,000 lives a day just in the US? Do they take as many as *1,300,000 *a year? Like I said, the ***most important ***issue at hand is abortion. It must be stopped.

But here’s the question: given the current political climate, how many of those “deaths” could be prevented by electing a pro-life president? Personally, I think the answer is zero. Maybe someday things will be different in that regard, but that’s how it is right now.

And BTW: lack of access to clean drinking water kills about 1,600,000 people per year, mostly children. So yes, there are other issues that are just as important, even if we take the “pro-life” position that a fetus is a person.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

But here’s the question: given the current political climate, how many of those “deaths” could be prevented by electing a pro-life president? Personally, I think the answer is zero. Maybe someday things will be different in that regard, but that’s how it is right now.

We don’t just need a pro-life president (who will at least work to help the pro-life movement, being the president, and all ), we need action. If every single Christian and Catholic were voting according to their beliefs, abortion wouldn’t even be legal.

And BTW: lack of access to clean drinking water kills about 1,600,000 people per year, mostly children. So yes, there are other issues that are just as important, even if we take the “pro-life” position that a fetus is a person.

No. That may be true, but nothing takes more lives than abortion. Nothing. Worldwide, abortion kills from 42 to 46 million per year.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

The issue of life should be first and foremost.
What you said about the the life issue being second, is WRONG.

That is problem with this so called Libreal/Conservative issue it is put before the culture of life. Alienating prolife Liberals and embracing pro death conservatives has been placed above all moral issues.

This isn’t about politics. This is about where we stand as a country. Forget about people’s political views; look at how they are living their life.…and the choices they are making.

So what part of what your in laws life is immoral?

 

[gearhead]

No. That may be true, but nothing takes more lives than abortion. Nothing. Worldwide, abortion kills from 42 to 46 million per year.

And you didn’t address my question: how many of these abortions can you prevent by electing an anti-abortion president?

There are countless issues where it would be a very simple matter requiring little in the way of resources to save large numbers of lives, and where resistance to change is minor.

Imagine the huge positive impact if just, say, one tenth of the anti-abortion movement changed its primary focus from abortion to malaria. The pro-choice movement wouldn’t make any more ground, but in the meantime, real political and social change could be made to happen, saving possibly millions of lives.

I’m not saying you have to abandon your beliefs about abortion; I’m just saying that when you make that the only issue, you ignore all the “quick wins” that would be easy to accomplish and have significant positive results.

Edit: and in the meantime, a generation of right-wing politicians have learned that they can get away with murder as long as they take the “right” position on a handful of issues.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

We don’t just need a pro-life president (who will at least work to help the pro-life movement, being the president, and all ), we need action. If every single Christian and Catholic were voting according to their beliefs, abortion wouldn’t even be legal

That is not correct, abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court not through elected representitives. And frankly the current president will probably do more to reduce and stop abortion than anyone running on a conservative ticket

. No. That may be true, but nothing takes more lives than abortion. Nothing. Worldwide, abortion kills from 42 to 46 million per year.

abortion will only be stopped through education just to look at your own numbers that would indicate 95% of abortion is occurring outside the USA so US Libreals/Conservatives are only minor players at best.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

That is problem with this so called Libreal/Conservative issue it is put before the culture of life. Alienating prolife Liberals and embracing pro death conservatives has been placed above all moral issues.

So what part of what your in laws life is immoral?

Please see MarkInOregon’s post. That is all that matters.

And frankly the current president will probably do more to reduce and stop abortion than anyone running on a conservative ticket

Yeah, the guy who opposed the bill preventing partial birth abortions and opposed the legislation protecting born alive faliled abortions is gonna help reduce abortion. If he wanted to reduce abortions, he would oppose abortion and work mighty hard to make it illegal, not vote in favor of it. P.S if he will reduce abortions (unlikely), he is promoting birth control…another thing that goes against church teaching.

Gearhead,

I’m not saying we should forget about other issues. We can work to stop malaria and abrotion. It’s just that, people underestimate the damage abortion is bringing to the people. The truth of it needs to be out there in the open. I understand your opinion, but I really hope you (and texas roofer) are both pro-life (or anti-abortion) both in your thoughts and words, and actions.

My fault for getting this thread off topic.
I have made it go far deeper than the conservative/liberal titles and I’m sorry.

Therese

 

[gearhead]

P.S if he will reduce abortions (unlikely), he is promoting birth control…another thing that goes against church teaching.

Ah… so you’re not so much “pro-life” as you are “pro-doctrine”.

I see a deep hypocrisy in the Church’s position on these two issues. If abortion truly is murder, then working against birth control is akin to being accessory to slaughter.

Gearhead,

I’m not saying we should forget about other issues. We can work to stop malaria and abrotion.

Perhaps, but not by electing representatives who are against abortion AND against foreign aid. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make.

For example, can you name me one politician who’s “pro-life” AND in favour of funding for the UN’s Millenium Development Goals?

At the moment, these sorts of issues are an either-or proposition at election time.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Ah… so you’re not so much “pro-life” as you are “pro-doctrine”.

I’m pro-life because that’s what my Church, the one true Church, teaches. Oh, and because it’s right, despite what you believe, to not be a murderer or promote murder.

I see a deep hypocrisy in the Church’s position on these two issues. If abortion truly is murder, then working against birth control is akin to being accessory to slaughter.

Wrong. There is a way everyone, even the defensless child in the womb, can win. It’s called NFP. Oh, and common sense on staying abstinant before marriage.

Perhaps, but not by electing representatives who are against abortion AND against foreign aid. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make.

I see. Well, then that brings me back to putting what needs to be first, first. Then, praying.

 

[gearhead]

I’m pro-life because that’s what my Church, the one true Church, teaches.

IOW, you’re “pro-doctrine”, not “pro-life”

Oh, and because it’s right, despite what you believe, to not be a murderer or promote murder.

Except when “murder” is in accordance with doctrine, like the Church’s stance on birth control.

Wrong. There is a way everyone, even the defensless child in the womb, can win. It’s called NFP. Oh, and common sense on staying abstinant before marriage.

So… you think that it’s right to withhold a measure from people that would sharply reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and consequently the number of abortions because you think other methods are better, despite the fact that the methods you prefer are already open to them but they are unwilling to choose them?

Are you “pro-life” or not?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

IOW, you’re “pro-doctrine”, not “pro-life”

Being pro-doctrine, as you put it, makes me pro-life!

So… you think that it’s right to withhold a measure from people that would sharply reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and consequently the number of abortions because you think other methods are better, despite the fact that the methods you prefer are already open to them but they are unwilling to choose them?

If people aren’t choosing the “methods” I mentioned they are either uninformed or sinning. Period.

Are you “pro-life” or not?

I do not have to answer that question. I have made it perfectly clear where I stand. As for where you stand, I’m not so sure.

Back to the topic:
I have found that it doesn’t matter what political views you have, rather the morals you obey. If you are Chiristian/ Catholic, you know the morals you must obey. If you do not have a specific religion, anything can go. In regards to being a liberal and Catholic, hate the sin, love the sinner. I do not judge people, I must make moral jugdments. I will not ever be a liberal due to my moral judgements. Thank you all for joining.

I believe my question has been answered and this thread may be closed.

Gearhead, I’ll see ya in the “social justice” forum!

God Bless.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Please see MarkInOregon’s post. That is all that matters.

And what does he know about your extended family?

Yeah, the guy who opposed the bill preventing partial birth abortions and opposed the legislation protecting born alive faliled abortions is gonna help reduce abortion.

yes

If he wanted to reduce abortions, he would oppose abortion and work mighty hard to make it illegal, not vote in favor of it.

A better issue is will you stop him so abortion can remain legal? Will you tie up the libreal/conservative issue to reduce abortion alternatives? Will you fight until education cannot be used to stop or reduce unwanted pregnancies and their resulting abortions?

P.S if he will reduce abortions (unlikely), he is promoting birth control…another thing that goes against church teaching.

The Church educates people on how to limit pregnancies so his objectives and the Churchs are not that far apart

Gearhead,

I’m not saying we should forget about other issues. We can work to stop malaria and abrotion. It’s just that, people underestimate the damage abortion is bringing to the people. The truth of it needs to be out there in the open. I understand your opinion, but I really hope you (and texas roofer) are both pro-life (or anti-abortion) both in your thoughts and words, and actions.

My fault for getting this thread off topic.
I have made it go far deeper than the conservative/liberal titles and I’m sorry.

Therese

Theresa entrenching the battle of abortion today keeps abortion legal and active. To stop abortion the alternatives must be taught which includes aspects before and after pregnancy. To lock down in the trenches today is to lose, just please keep that in mind.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

That is not correct, abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court not through elected representitives. And frankly the current president will probably do more to reduce and stop abortion than anyone running on a conservative ticket

How exactly do you figure that? Is funding for abortion in the healthcare bill or funding overseas organizations that preform abortions going to reduce the number?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Texas Roofer,

Please read up on what our Faith tells us is true.
Compare it to what Obama believes and is working towards.
Then, we can continue discussing those issues.
Don’t put the Catholic Church and Obama in the same boat. You are disgracing all Catholics. To be for Obama is one thing, but to say your are a practicing Catholic and for Obama is wrong.

Therese

p.s. my extended family calls themselves Catholic but their actions speak otherwise.

 

[Tedster]

That is not correct, abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court not through elected representitives.

And who appoints the Supreme court justices…yep, you got it. Our elected reps.

And frankly the current president will probably do more to reduce and stop abortion than anyone running on a conservative ticket abortion will only be stopped through education just to look at your own numbers that would indicate 95% of abortion is occurring outside the USA so US Libreals/Conservatives are only minor players at best.

You must be joking. No administration in the history of our country will attempt to do more to promote abortion than the current one. You really must read up on Mr. Obama’s agendas.

.

 

[Holly3278]

Depends on what you mean by “liberal”. If by liberal you mean a person who approves of gay marriage, the pro-“choice” movement, euthanasia, etc then no, you cannot be both a liberal and a Catholic. At least you cannot be an orthodox Catholic. If, however, you mean by liberal a person who approves of the welfare system, universal health care, and is against the death penalty etc then yes, you can be a liberal and a Catholic. Remember, there are different types of liberals. The kind that goes against the Church’s moral teachings is incompatible with orthodox Catholicism. The kind that does not go against the Church’s teachings is compatible with the orthodox Catholicism.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

How exactly do you figure that?

one only needs to listen, and that one does not need to listen to me, but to the parties involved.

Is funding for abortion in the healthcare bill or funding overseas organizations that preform abortions going to reduce the number?

that is poor logic at best for example if hospitals are distroyed and abortion clinics are blown up does the problem go away? See hospitals do a lot more than abortions, and the places called abortion clinics are often not abortions clinics does that matter? The fact is the health procedures sometimes merge into the abortion issues that is why the all or none philosophy results in none which means no progress for catholics. So is zero progress your desired goal? .

 

[Texas_Roofer]

And who appoints the Supreme court justices…yep, you got it. Our elected reps.

Since when? In the US Supreme Court nominees are “appointed” by the president not our elected reps. More germane is that Supreme Court judges are never up for reelection, and cannot be removed

You must be joking. No administration in the history of our country will attempt to do more to promote abortion than the current one. You really must read up on Mr. Obama’s agendas. .

How could he? Seriously answer how he could possibly increase abortions, and see if that is what is actually being done verses what someone said is being done.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Texas Roofer,

Please read up on what our Faith tells us is true.
Compare it to what Obama believes and is working towards.
Then, we can continue discussing those issues.

it seem you use the term “discuss” loosely

Don’t put the Catholic Church and Obama in the same boat.

They are in the same boat 99% of the time, and catholics are called to turth

You are disgracing all Catholics.

To be for Obama is one thing, but to say your are a practicing Catholic and for Obama is wrong.

Therese

p.s. my extended family calls themselves Catholic but their actions speak otherwise.

What actions ? Or is “MarkInOregon” supposed to answer? What about earlier catechism post does it still apply?

 

[Tedster]

Since when? In the US Supreme Court nominees are “appointed” by the president not our elected reps.

Wow! It almost sounds like you are saying that the President is NOT an elected rep.

So since day one, every Supreme court nominee was appointed and confirmed by our elected representatives.

 

[Tedster]

How could he? Seriously answer how he could possibly increase abortions, and see if that is what is actually being done verses what someone said is being done.

By making abortions easier both physically and financially he will increase the number of abortions. That is his agenda, like it or not.

Do a little research yourself on how he wants to make abortion more accessible and convince me that it will not increase the number of murders of innocent lives. And it IS actually being done. Read through the Obamacare plan and it is plain to see, if you really want to see it.

I’ll even help you:

Sec. 1713, Pg. 768, Lines 3-5 - Nurse Home Visit Services – Service #1: “Improving maternal or child health and pregnancy outcomes or increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.”** Compulsory ABORTIONS?**

**Sec. 1714, Pg. 769 **- Federal government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion and government control intertwined.

And this is one bill that he is pushing. Look a little deeper and find more.