Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[itinerant1]

Hi Tedster, I do not think my family agrees with all of the “liberal agenda”, but I guess I can say they lean left having to do with the war. Liberals are anti-war, are they not?
Thank you.

Liberal and conservative have become over-used and mis-used terms. Oftentimes people do not have a clear idea of what they mean by the words. What we call liberalism now, has much in common with socialism, and little in common with classical liberalism.

There are folks who are labeled and think of themselves as conservatives, but often are not genuine conservatives. What is it that they are trying to conserve? Are they trying to conserve what is best in America’s political tradition? Are they trying to conserve the environment from exploitation? These are just a few of the many questions that reveal the confusion and vagueness with which the political terms are often used.

Also, we tend to think in stereotypes about liberals and conservatives. For example, considering liberals as anti-war is a stereotype. Many so-called liberals have been very pro-war when it came to Vietnam and the two Gulf Wars.

However, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict have opposed the Gulf Wars. Benedict, when a cardinal said,

“There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

Does this make him a liberal?

My point is that terms need to be clearly defined and clarified, and we need to avoid stereotypes.

 

[Bluegoat]

Oh, now I see. But you can also look to the statistics that say a lot of countries outside of the US are losing many Christian values. We have been a secular wold for quite sometime. So it is easy to see that some may be confused as to why we cannot be liberal and Catholic…because they have lost what it is to be Catholic.

Just try to get an idea:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Worldreligion.png

So Catholics in other countries don’t count because they are being influenced by the morally degraded secular socialists?

If some version of that were true, why couldn’t we say something similar about Americans? American Catholicism isn’t real Catholicism because it is being degraded by an association with non-Catholic conservative ideals?

You can’t have it both ways, as if American citizens are somehow immune to their social society and others are not. Clearly, we are all influenced by the society we live in. One hopes that none of us is wholly determined by it - if that were true it would suggest that Christianity was not true, since it would seriously impinge free will.

But one of the best ways to escape, or rise above the social conditioning we all get is to look at what people do who live in other places and times. And when you can look at other Catholics or Christians, who see their belief as leading to very different conclusions, that should be something to keep in mind, to suggest that the answer is not, perhaps as obvious as it seems.

 

[Interliner]

I believe that just as we cannot be a " fast food Cahtolic" Catholic-picking and choosing what you want to believe. You take the Church totally or not at all!! Therefore, one cannot be a "fast food “liberal-it’s all or nothing!!! In conclusion a Catholic cannot be liberal! Jesus said you are either with me or against me. There is " …no sitting on the fence”.

A brother in Christ,

Interliner

 

[Bluegoat]

I believe that just as we cannot be a " fast food Cahtolic" Catholic-picking and choosing what you want to believe. You take the Church totally or not at all!! Therefore, one cannot be a "fast food “liberal-it’s all or nothing!!! In conclusion a Catholic cannot be liberal! Jesus said you are either with me or against me. There is " …no sitting on the fence”.

A brother in Christ,

Interliner

I don’t think your comparison holds, even if your first statement is true. It would depend upon a liberal being a similar kind of thing to a Catholic, which it isn’t. You might want to look a bit at the history of the word liberal - it has meant many different things at different times and in different places. A good place to start is John Sturart Mill’s book, On Liberalism. Mill is considered to be the father of Liberalism, and you might be suprised to see that what he is talking about has little to do with the way the popular media in the US uses the word.

 

[gearhead]

I believe that just as we cannot be a " fast food Cahtolic" Catholic-picking and choosing what you want to believe. You take the Church totally or not at all!! Therefore, one cannot be a "fast food “liberal-it’s all or nothing!!! In conclusion a Catholic cannot be liberal! Jesus said you are either with me or against me. There is " …no sitting on the fence”.

Hmm.

Personally, I don’t see how someone who follows the Sermon on the Mount and takes its teachings to heart could be anything other than a liberal.

OTOH, the Ten Commandments kinda point toward conservatism for me.

I guess it’s just a question of what you want to emphasize.

 

[cmhllama]

This entire debate reminds me of last Sunday’s Gospel, where Jesus was being tested on the letter of the law in regards to divorce. He did state the law, but then added a twist.

As my priest said on Sunday, we care called to follow the “Spirit of the Law,” not necessarily the “Letter of the Law.”

I am proudly Catholic and liberal (very liberal in fact). I believe we are called to love as Jesus loves. We are to love everyone: gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, criminal, free, juvenile delinquent, honor student, athlete, leprosy patient, Muslim, Jewish, abortionist, AIDS patient, transsexual, and on and on. We are called to welcome all. All our actions are to come from a place of love and wanting to spread/continue life.

I’m not going to spend time here defending my beliefs or “proving” to the conservative Catholics here that I’m still a Catholic. I don’t care what apologists or orthodox Catholics think of me anyway. I only answer to God . I will reiterate though that we are called to act in a spirit of love and life, even if the actions that result sometimes contradict the letter of the law.

 

[uscav_21]

Some if not most really need to take some political science courses. Take time to learn were the political parties came from and what really separates them. I assure you will be amazed to learn certain truths about the American political system. Also ask yourself one more question, is it possible that having only two major political parties a mistake because how can you fit everyone into the two categories? Please if you have studied political science do not spoil the fun of self learning for the others.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I am proudly Catholic and liberal (very liberal in fact). I believe we are called to love as Jesus loves. We are to love everyone: gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, criminal, free, juvenile delinquent, honor student, athlete, leprosy patient, Muslim, Jewish, abortionist, AIDS patient, transsexual, and on and on. We are called to welcome all.

Yes, we are called to love and welcome all to Jesus. But we love Jesus more than others and ourselves, therefore, we must respect and follow the laws He has set for us - the ten commandments, specifically murder: abortion.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Some if not most really need to take some political science courses. Take time to learn were the political parties came from and what really separates them.

That is really good advice. I really don’t know a lot about politics. I might take you up on that.

God Bless

 

[fix]

This entire debate reminds me of last Sunday’s Gospel, where Jesus was being tested on the letter of the law in regards to divorce. He did state the law, but then added a twist.

As my priest said on Sunday, we care called to follow the “Spirit of the Law,” not necessarily the “Letter of the Law.”

I am proudly Catholic and liberal (very liberal in fact). I believe we are called to love as Jesus loves. We are to love everyone: gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, criminal, free, juvenile delinquent, honor student, athlete, leprosy patient, Muslim, Jewish, abortionist, AIDS patient, transsexual, and on and on. We are called to welcome all. All our actions are to come from a place of love and wanting to spread/continue life.

I’m not going to spend time here defending my beliefs or “proving” to the conservative Catholics here that I’m still a Catholic. I don’t care what apologists or orthodox Catholics think of me anyway. I only answer to God . I will reiterate though that we are called to act in a spirit of love and life, even if the actions that result sometimes contradict the letter of the law.

This seems confusing. Are you claiming God contradicts Himself? Are the commandments unloving?

 

[chaunceygardner]

When people asked where I was on the political spectrum, I would say that I was a “fiscal conservative and a social liberal”. In a religious context, I would respond that I am a “moral conservative and a social liberal”. That appears to be what Jesus was (is).

I would think Catholics can be “liberal”, and I know many who are. Keep in mind that not everyone labeled “liberal”, or “conservative” or “moderate” are the same or believe exactly the same. There is a continuum, and where someone is on that continuum depends on which issue or belief is being discussed. For example, on these forums I have been labeled a “fundamentalist” and an “atheist”, depending on the topic!

I have seen the same thing with how we “label” others. Some Catholics think that certain recent popes were way too liberal (or even worse) while others would say they were generally quite conservative. Who is right? Is anyone “right”? Some people would consider Mother Teresa conservative in her religious beliefs but liberal in her application of the Gospel. Some would say too liberal in some respects, while others have seen her as a bulwark of a conservative morality and Catholic faith. I see her as an exemplary Christian.

Today we are way too quick to label people based on one issue and dump them in a bucket with everyone else that takes the same position, whether or not they agree on hundreds of other issues. That is not very intelligent nor very Christian.

 

[otjm]

I believe that just as we cannot be a " fast food Cahtolic" Catholic-picking and choosing what you want to believe. You take the Church totally or not at all!! Therefore, one cannot be a "fast food “liberal-it’s all or nothing!!! In conclusion a Catholic cannot be liberal! Jesus said you are either with me or against me. There is " …no sitting on the fence”.

A brother in Christ,

Interliner

There are sveral posts herein that indicate one should define what “liberal” means. A Catholic cannot be “liberal” does not make sense if one follows the Church in the issue of social justice. And social justice is part of what the Church teaches.

How do you answer that?

 

[chaunceygardner]

Sorry, I accidently posted the same post again. Never mind.

 

[otjm]

This entire debate reminds me of last Sunday’s Gospel, where Jesus was being tested on the letter of the law in regards to divorce. He did state the law, but then added a twist.

As my priest said on Sunday, we care called to follow the “Spirit of the Law,” not necessarily the “Letter of the Law.”

I am proudly Catholic and liberal (very liberal in fact). I believe we are called to love as Jesus loves. We are to love everyone: gay, straight, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, criminal, free, juvenile delinquent, honor student, athlete, leprosy patient, Muslim, Jewish, abortionist, AIDS patient, transsexual, and on and on. We are called to welcome all. All our actions are to come from a place of love and wanting to spread/continue life.

I’m not going to spend time here defending my beliefs or “proving” to the conservative Catholics here that I’m still a Catholic. I don’t care what apologists or orthodox Catholics think of me anyway. I only answer to God . I will reiterate though that we are called to act in a spirit of love and life, even if the actions that result sometimes contradict the letter of the law.

You have said far too little of what you believe for anyone to intelligently “take you on”, and that is not my desire.

We are called to welcome all. We are also called to speak the truth; and the truth includes issues of moral behavior. I do not presume that you would disagree with this position, but many who call themselves “liberal” do disagree; they have fallen into the trap of Relativism and Situational Ethics, and end up at times outright condoning behavior that Christ condemned.

The Church is neither conservative nor liberal; it simply preaches Christ. Those who consider themselves “conservative” generally adhere to a clear moral code, but often cannot separate person from choice; interestingly the flipside is true; those who consider themselves “liberal” are open and accepting of others, but often cannot separate person from choice.

In other words, too often conservatives cannot be open and accepting of others who do not follow a moral code, and do not seem able to separate out the person (for example, someone who practices birth control) from sinful actions.

And too often, liberals feel that accepting a person means not criticizing immoral behavior, which then runs too closely to those in society who want to make immoral behavior not only legal, but of the same moral value as those whose behavior follows the moral code.

Christ ate with sinners. He also healed them and then told them to sin no more. Conservatives seem to have problems with the healing; liberals seem to have problems with the issue of no more sinning.

Again, you have said too little to determine that htis applies to you; however, the issues are very real in the world.

 

[cmhllama]

This seems confusing. Are you claiming God contradicts Himself? Are the commandments unloving?

No. God doesn’t contradict Godself. We just can’t seem to ever get it 100%.

I believe the Bible is the Living Word of God, and the Word of God is continually, gradually, revealed to us over time. It is an unfolding conversation and not a stagnant, unchanging book of rules. I am a contextualist, not fundamentalist. And way back in my freshman year of high school, my Theology teacher said that Catholics interpret, or are supposed to interpret, the Bible contextually, not literally. For example, Christians used to use the Bible (or rather, parts of the Bible) to justify slavery. Now, Christians use that same Bible to say that slavery is absolutely unacceptable with no place in the Kingdom of God or on Earth.

Now as Catholics, of course we use more than the Bible for our philosophy. However, as God’s Truth is continually revealed to us, it forces us to re-examine our Canon Law. The Truth is the same. Our understanding changes because we’re finite and imperfect and don’t always “get it” the first time.

Again, look back at this past Sunday’s Gospel, which included Mark 10:2-11. Moses’ “law” permitted divorce, but Jesus said Moses wrote that law because of their hardness of hearts. From the beginning, God made us male and female, the two shall become one flesh, whatever God joined no human can separate etc, etc. You all can obviously read so I won’t type the entire passage.

The letter of the law, which the Pharisees clung so desperately to, wasn’t in sync with what God really wanted. Laws change, God doesn’t. The Truth (capital t) is the same, though truth (lowercase t) changes. I don’t want to turn into a Pharisee who is more concerned with following laws to the letter than walking in the Light, the Spirit of God.

 

[cmhllama]

Some if not most really need to take some political science courses. Take time to learn were the political parties came from and what really separates them. I assure you will be amazed to learn certain truths about the American political system. Also ask yourself one more question, is it possible that having only two major political parties a mistake because how can you fit everyone into the two categories? Please if you have studied political science do not spoil the fun of self learning for the others.

Amen!

 

[phorgan1]

I was going to read the whole conversation before I posted, but only got through the middle of the eighth page because I was disgusted by the tone. Some of you managed to darken my spirit. There are people here who say mean spirited hateful hurtful things. They stoop to ad hominem attacks. (That means that instead of talking about the issues, you attack the other person telling them that they’re stupid or uninformed, or ignorant, or couldn’t possibly be a Catholic if they hold the opinion you’re arguing against or voted for someone you couldn’t in good conscience support. It’s just trying to beat them down and make them shut up.) Christ’s doctrines hold up quite well on their own, thank you very much. Remember, He said that the first commandment was to love God, and the second, like unto it was to love your neighbor–that means love them even if you think that they’re on the road to hell with their moral, spiritual, or even political choices. He went on to say that these two are all the Law and the Prophets, meaning it’s all the rules you need to tell if you’re going with Him or against Him. Just pay attention to what you’re feeling while typing. You’ll notice the difference between love and anger. If you’re not feeling love, then you risk undermining your point by being un-Christian. You’re supposed to follow Christ’s example and call the sinners with love, not drive them away with vitriol. (N.B. Love is infrequently expressed by being mean.) I know someone will jump in and say that loving means correction if you see someone going down a wrong path. That’s right. That’s what I’m trying to do here. But if that’s done with some of the tone I see in this discussion, though, it is not love, even if you tell yourself it is. There are others here who embody Christianity in the respectful way that they converse with others whose beliefs that disagree with. How wonderful. Thank you. Unfortunately some of you meanies are spoiling the tone of the whole discussion and like to jump in a LOT. I’m calling on you to change. You’ll like it. Let’s love us with prayer. Heavenly father, touch all of us with the graces we need to see Christ in other and to love. I ask this in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

As far as being a liberal and a Catholic, the whole question is a red herring. Lots of things considered liberal by someone are core teachings of the Church. Lots of things considered conservative by someone are core teachings of the Church. Ideologues wedded to extreme views in either direction would likely not be good Catholics, because they would believe things which go against Dogma. Certainly not least of which is being cruel and judgmental about those at the other extreme. Being wedded to an extreme political viewpoint risks putting false idols before God.

The Church’s teachings on the sanctity of life don’t just encompass abortion and the death penalty, but also opposition to un-just war, and social issues like the right to work and care for your family. More than 9 million people a year die from the effects of poverty. 25000/day. (poverty.com) National Right To Life Council, at the peak in 1990 put the number of abortions just in the United States at between 1.4 and 1.6 million. Worldwide it runs more like 46 million, about half in China. guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html The sad truth though is that most abortions take place in the second or third world and are a direct or indirect result of poverty. Those deaths should be added to the count of deaths due to poverty, but who wants to count them. The liberation theology people were perhaps a bit silly about their conclusions about Marxism, but were spot on when they said that Christ came in a special way for the poor, and that for some to have excess while others suffer and die is a sin. I consider the effect on the poor in Cuba and Gaza when deciding if I think the blockades on those two places are in line with Christ’s teachings. I think he’d show up with love and bread and fish. I was just in Peru and saw people slaving for nothing while a few minutes away people were comfortable. There is poverty and injustice all around the world (including in the United States), and Christ, and a whole series of encyclicals call us to do something about it.

If you’re pro-life, you have to care about this stuff. If you’re pro-Christ (and of course we assume that you are if you’re Catholic) you have to care about this stuff.

Who cares if people label our beliefs as liberal or conservative. We follow Christ, and Christ wants us to go out there and do something. We’re all called.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I was going to read the whole conversation before I posted, but only got through the middle of the eighth page because I was disgusted by the tone. Some of you managed to darken my spirit. There are people here who say mean spirited hateful hurtful things. They stoop to ad hominem attacks. (That means that instead of talking about the issues, you attack the other person telling them that they’re stupid or uninformed, or ignorant, or couldn’t possibly be a Catholic if they hold the opinion you’re arguing against or voted for someone you couldn’t in good conscience support. It’s just trying to beat them down and make them shut up.) Christ’s doctrines hold up quite well on their own, thank you very much. Remember, He said that the first commandment was to love God, and the second, like unto it was to love your neighbor–that means love them even if you think that they’re on the road to hell with their moral, spiritual, or even political choices. He went on to say that these two are all the Law and the Prophets, meaning it’s all the rules you need to tell if you’re going with Him or against Him. Just pay attention to what you’re feeling while typing. You’ll notice the difference between love and anger. If you’re not feeling love, then you risk undermining your point by being un-Christian. You’re supposed to follow Christ’s example and call the sinners with love, not drive them away with vitriol. (N.B. Love is infrequently expressed by being mean.) I know someone will jump in and say that loving means correction if you see someone going down a wrong path. That’s right. That’s what I’m trying to do here. But if that’s done with some of the tone I see in this discussion, though, it is not love, even if you tell yourself it is. There are others here who embody Christianity in the respectful way that they converse with others whose beliefs that disagree with. How wonderful. Thank you. Unfortunately some of you meanies are spoiling the tone of the whole discussion and like to jump in a LOT. I’m calling on you to change. You’ll like it. Let’s love us with prayer. Heavenly father, touch all of us with the graces we need to see Christ in other and to love. I ask this in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Thank you. I desperately needed that. There are countless times on threads like these when I let my anger or frustration or grief get the best of me. You have reminded me to ask the question: what would Jesus do? I am now filled with remorse over some of my posts. I need to take that plank out of my eye!

Thank you and Bless you, friend. God has spoken through you today.

 

[the_7th_one]

Hi all~

I know that you cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice due to what we believe and practice as Catholics, but is it possible to be a liberal and still be a good Catholic? A lot of my extended family is left-wing, yet claim to be Catholic. My immediate family is fully conservative, however, and I have never doubted that. Is it that I don’t fully understand the term “liberal” and think that you must automatically be conservative if you’re Catholic?

Please help me understand and excuse my political ignorance…

~Therese

I know I’m comming in late to this discussion, but it is my view that the Church is really hitting the mark when Liberals and Conservatives are upset with her. Abortion does to the left what immigration rights does to the right.
Personally I’ve taken as my own motto, Idiology is for idiots, you need Practical Principaled solutions.
and, in my case maybe a good spell checker

 

[SVP]

Hi all~

I know that you cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice due to what we believe and practice as Catholics, but is it possible to be a liberal and still be a good Catholic? A lot of my extended family is left-wing, yet claim to be Catholic. My immediate family is fully conservative, however, and I have never doubted that. Is it that I don’t fully understand the term “liberal” and think that you must automatically be conservative if you’re Catholic?

Please help me understand and excuse my political ignorance…

~Therese

Simply- NO

Liberalism in todays world is completely at odds with the Catholic Church.