Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

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Voting for a liberal candidate does not always mean you are a liberal. In my experience many people vote not so much on the issue, but the role they believe the government should play in controlling that issue. For example, I know Democrats who are personally against abortion, but do not feel they or the government should be making the decision for an individual. This is more “anti-big government” than “pro” something else.

As another example, people have voted pro-life for a long time and ended up not seeing the abortion laws change. What good did it really do to vote for a candidate based on this one issue if nothing changes? So pro-life voters start to vote based on other criteria. This is one reason I think Obama was able to get elected. We didn’t really see much change around these issues when Republicans had control so people became ambivalent, even when voting for Obama was contrary to their personal beliefs.

In these situations I can see how some Catholics might see their vote for liberal candidates not being against church teaching.
I am not a cheerleader for George W. Bush, but your claims force me to set the record straight about his pro-life legacy.

Under George W. Bush we had:
  • a restored Mexico City policy, which bans US gov’t from funding abortion as family planning in foreign aid countries
  • new federal regulations protecting conscience rights of doctors
  • a ban on partial-birth abortion
  • two new Supreme Court justices who upheld the ban and who do not fantasize that the right to abortion appears in the Constitution. They have lifetime terms.
  • the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which says even if you intended to abort in the womb you cannot murder the child if it’s born alive
  • the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which says when a pregnant woman is assaulted there are two victims
  • a ban on federal funds for human cloning (American Life League thought this did not go far enough but the liberal left must have thought it significant and accused Bush of being anti-science–just because he withheld tax dollars!)
President Obama’s pro-abortion record is too long to list here, so see this lifenews.com/2010/11/07/obamaabortionrecord/

But before he became president people had a chance to reject his extremism when they learned that he voted against a ban on infanticide in the Illinois legislature in 2001, 2002, and 2003. That should have told you all you needed to know about the man.
 
I am not a cheerleader for George W. Bush, but your claims force me to set the record straight about his pro-life legacy.

Under George W. Bush we had:
  • a restored Mexico City policy, which bans US gov’t from funding abortion as family planning in foreign aid countries
  • new federal regulations protecting conscience rights of doctors
  • a ban on partial-birth abortion
  • two new Supreme Court justices who upheld the ban and who do not fantasize that the right to abortion appears in the Constitution. They have lifetime terms.
  • the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which says even if you intended to abort in the womb you cannot murder the child if it’s born alive
  • the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which says when a pregnant woman is assaulted there are two victims
  • a ban on federal funds for human cloning (American Life League thought this did not go far enough but the liberal left must have thought it significant and accused Bush of being anti-science–just because he withheld tax dollars!)
President Obama’s pro-abortion record is too long to list here, so see this lifenews.com/2010/11/07/obamaabortionrecord/

But before he became president people had a chance to reject his extremism when they learned that he voted against a ban on infanticide in the Illinois legislature in 2001, 2002, and 2003. That should have told you all you needed to know about the man.
Thanks for pointing this out. I was thinking of abortion not being completely banned, but even the steps that you listed are in the right direction.

I might be wrong but I think Obama was voting against other legislation that was part of the same bill containing the infanticide ban. At least this was how it was explained to me.
 
A good catholic with a properly informed conscience will likely provoke rage from BOTH Rush Limbaugh AND Nancy Pelosi. If you find yourself completely agreeing with either one of them - WORRY and then PRAY!
Well put!
 
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this RC finds 10 X the rage with Mrs. Pelosi’s stands, in comparison to Rush. And she even calls herself Catholic, while promoting the Culture of Death and gay rights
No doubt. But there’s certainly some left over to go where it’s due. The Republican party isn’t squeaky clean, especially in my locale. I often have to remember that I’m Catholic before I’m conservative. Any election involving someone like Pelosi, however, is a no brainer. She’s absolutely vile to the point where it’s near impossible to find anyone to compete for a second place in vile. Not every election is like that though, especially in more local elections, when one has to choose between two individuals who are both repulsive criminals and that’s where things get harder.
 
Hi all~

I know that you cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice due to what we believe and practice as Catholics, but is it possible to be a liberal and still be a good Catholic? A lot of my extended family is left-wing, yet claim to be Catholic. My immediate family is fully conservative, however, and I have never doubted that. Is it that I don’t fully understand the term “liberal” and think that you must automatically be conservative if you’re Catholic?

Please help me understand and excuse my political ignorance… :o

~Therese
Jesus was a liberal.

The competing values between conservatism and liberalism are freedom and equality. In God’s eyes were are all equal in dignity and equally rewarded for our goodness.

Lets compare the respective views on material rewards and spiritual rewards. In the real world, someone may work very hard, but through a series of misfortunes, never fully benefit from his hard work. He may get injured on the job, or have a house fire, etc. Conservatives say that this is fine, what matters is that he had the opportunity to work hard and improve his life. Liberals on the other hand would like to ensure that hard work is rewarded more equally. For example, they will try to provide universal health care so that the hard work of the uninsured does not get wiped out by unexpected illnesses.

How does God arrange our spiritual rewards? Does he distribute his grace randomly, content that he has afforded us the opportunity of salvation or does he always reward those who are faithful and help those who have fallen?
 
Jesus was a liberal.
no, Jesus didn’t take political sides… He certainly wouldn’t support much of the en-voug progressive ideology (abortion, homosexual marriage)… I really do hate it when people say “Jesus was a liberal”.
 
no, Jesus didn’t take political sides… He certainly wouldn’t support much of the en-voug progressive ideology (abortion, homosexual marriage)… I really do hate it when people say “Jesus was a liberal”.
I appreciate your reply to the “centrist.” Why do we keep dancing around the issue which is, in my hmo, can a Catholic be a Dem.and vote for Dems when the Dems. promote and vote the 5 non debatable doctrinal issues of our Catholic Church — abortion, euthanasia, homosexualty, contraception (support & fund Planned Parenthood) and cloning/embryonic stem cell research. Hopefully a Catholic voting Dem. can explain that to us???
submitted with the love of Christ
 
Jesus was a liberal.
How can you possibly think he was pro-abortion and pro gay marriage? Boggles my mind.

Liberals want everyone brought down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives strive to give everyone a chance to have an upper class life.
 
I think many conservatives (esp the politicians) tend to be mean and selfish people, and terrible anti-life, even pro-death.

For one thing, they simply say they want to pass laws against abortion. That is, they want to put women in prison after having abortions. (And having been a young person in the 50s and 60s when abortions were illegal, I can tell you that laws do nothing to prevent abortion…lots of women were having illegal abortions back then…I think that was a way some medical students paid for their education.)

The conservatives are totally against the things that really help reduce abortion, such as universal health care, higher minimum wages (2/3 of min wage earners are women), cheap (or free) professional childcare (as in France), paid maternity leave (my niece in France had complications from her pregnancy and got some 9 months paid leave), welfare as a right (not a shameful experience), and other supports that make women less likely to havee abortions. Note that nearly all European nations (which have these benefits) have much lower abortion rates than in the U.S.

If one REALLY wants to reduce abortion and not just put women who have had abortion in prison, then it usually makes more sense to vote for the liberal candidate.

Now when we talk about anthropogenic climate change – which I’ve been following closely for over 20 years, and now looks like will in the next few centuries kill off a large portion of life on earth, if not all of life – most conservatives not only are against doing anything to reduce it (they are even against advising people to turn off lights not it use), they are denying its existence. They are extreme pro-death people. And there are other life-threatening environmental problems, that they refuse to admit or do anything about.

Now when it comes to the death penalty, conservatives tend to be more in favor of it than liberals, and there are lots of innocent people who get executed (one my Republican gov Perry executed KNOWING he was innocent…but there is this conservative desire for blood), not to mention the Catholic Church is against the death penalty.

So, in all conscientiousness, I really don’t see how a good Catholic could vote for a conservative of today. I know the conservatives of the past were fine – like Nixon. I used to be a Republican myself back then. But now they are exceedingly pro-death. It would be impossible for me to vote for them, even if I thought they might help the economy (and I think they are out to unwittingly destroy that too).

Life is precious. God’s gift. We should not be in the business of snuffing it out, or voting for those that would cause society to do so.
 
Jesus was a liberal.

The competing values between conservatism and liberalism are freedom and equality. In God’s eyes were are all equal in dignity and equally rewarded for our goodness.

Lets compare the respective views on material rewards and spiritual rewards. In the real world, someone may work very hard, but through a series of misfortunes, never fully benefit from his hard work. He may get injured on the job, or have a house fire, etc. Conservatives say that this is fine, what matters is that he had the opportunity to work hard and improve his life. Liberals on the other hand would like to ensure that hard work is rewarded more equally. For example, they will try to provide universal health care so that the hard work of the uninsured does not get wiped out by unexpected illnesses.

How does God arrange our spiritual rewards? Does he distribute his grace randomly, content that he has afforded us the opportunity of salvation or does he always reward those who are faithful and help those who have fallen?
Yes, all human beings are created equally in the image of a rational God. This is the basis of our dignity over other forms of creation.

It is obvious that God distributes human gifts unequally: motivation, ambition, intelligence, hearing, sight, nerve sensation, and almost every other physicial and mental attribute you can think of. He created this world, the living and non-living things in it, and the physical laws that govern it. Nothing breaks my heart like seeing Siamese twins. To me it is one of nature’s most grotesque “mistakes.” And yet God permits this to happen through no fault of the parents. I don’t know why, but I do know that God permits inequality and it must be there for a reason. Either it is how he planned it or more likely it is a consequence of Adam’s and Eve’s choice to disobey. But it is apart of the word until the end of time “as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ.”

We are on this Earth for a nanosecond in the scope of eternity, so the point of our brief pilgrimage should be to get to Heaven and help others do the same. In this way I would say conservatism is neutral–it permits you to pursue your own happiness with the gifts God gave you to the best of your ability. For Catholics this pursuit obviously includes 1) worshipping God, and 2) loving our neighbors.

For liberals, it seems, the point of life is Materialism, i.e. that only material goods matter because there is no soul and therefore no afterlife. It is liberalism, not conservatism, that places excessive importance on material goods, and uses provocative terms like “haves and have-nots” and “winners of life’s lottery” to incite class warfare. Christ never shook down the young rich man who asked what he needed to do to enter the Kingdom of God. He let the man walk away because God only wants love that is freely given.
 
I think many conservatives (esp the politicians) tend to be mean and selfish people, and terrible anti-life, even pro-death.

For one thing, they simply say they want to pass laws against abortion. That is, they want to put women in prison after having abortions. (And having been a young person in the 50s and 60s when abortions were illegal, I can tell you that laws do nothing to prevent abortion…lots of women were having illegal abortions back then…I think that was a way some medical students paid for their education.)

The conservatives are totally against the things that really help reduce abortion, such as universal health care, higher minimum wages (2/3 of min wage earners are women), cheap (or free) professional childcare (as in France), paid maternity leave (my niece in France had complications from her pregnancy and got some 9 months paid leave), welfare as a right (not a shameful experience), and other supports that make women less likely to havee abortions. Note that nearly all European nations (which have these benefits) have much lower abortion rates than in the U.S.

If one REALLY wants to reduce abortion and not just put women who have had abortion in prison, then it usually makes more sense to vote for the liberal candidate.

Now when we talk about anthropogenic climate change – which I’ve been following closely for over 20 years, and now looks like will in the next few centuries kill off a large portion of life on earth, if not all of life – most conservatives not only are against doing anything to reduce it (they are even against advising people to turn off lights not it use), they are denying its existence. They are extreme pro-death people. And there are other life-threatening environmental problems, that they refuse to admit or do anything about.

Now when it comes to the death penalty, conservatives tend to be more in favor of it than liberals, and there are lots of innocent people who get executed (one my Republican gov Perry executed KNOWING he was innocent…but there is this conservative desire for blood), not to mention the Catholic Church is against the death penalty.

So, in all conscientiousness, I really don’t see how a good Catholic could vote for a conservative of today. I know the conservatives of the past were fine – like Nixon. I used to be a Republican myself back then. But now they are exceedingly pro-death. It would be impossible for me to vote for them, even if I thought they might help the economy (and I think they are out to unwittingly destroy that too).

Life is precious. God’s gift. We should not be in the business of snuffing it out, or voting for those that would cause society to do so.
 
to love to learn —I am afraid to answer this because I do not want to insult your intelkligence and my choice of words and thoughts would possibly hurt. really think you need to “learn more”. you talk of climate change, death penalty, support for abortionists – and you compare this to the political party which promotes abortions, euthansia, embryonic stemcell research, human cloning, homosexuality, same sex marriage, eliminating God from our lives? How can these beliefs and practises equate with the faith of a practising Catholic?
 
I think many conservatives (esp the politicians) tend to be mean and selfish people, and terrible anti-life, even pro-death. Lynnvinc, I don’t under stand how you could begin with this sentence and sign off with “preach the Gospel; use words if you have to.” Most of your post is hyperbolic, ad-hominum attacks without reason or subtance. I don’t mind a hyperbolic argument if it’s based on facts, but your post is based on your personal animus toward a group of people.

For one thing, they simply say they want to pass laws against abortion. That is, they want to put women in prison after having abortions. (And having been a young person in the 50s and 60s when abortions were illegal, I can tell you that laws do nothing to prevent abortion…lots of women were having illegal abortions back then…I think that was a way some medical students paid for their education.) Catholic convert and former abortionist Dr. Bernard Nathanson passed away this year. He personally performed thousands of abortions and presided over a business that performed ten-thousands more. After he became pro-life he admitted that he had helped the pro-abortion lobby fabricate huge numbers of “back-alley” abortions in order to make the case for legalized abortion. Also, I think it’s the abortionist who would be held legally accountable, not the woman. Who says that women who abort should be imprisioned? And laws have a tremendous impact on people’s behavior. There were not a million illegal abortions in the US each year prior to 1973 as we have had every year since. Dr. Nathanson told the media at the time there were 10,000 and this was an inflated, made-up number. aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

The conservatives are totally against the things that really help reduce abortion, such as universal health care, higher minimum wages (2/3 of min wage earners are women), cheap (or free) professional childcare (as in France), paid maternity leave (my niece in France had complications from her pregnancy and got some 9 months paid leave), welfare as a right (not a shameful experience), and other supports that make women less likely to havee abortions. Note that nearly all European nations (which have these benefits) have much lower abortion rates than in the U.S Social conservatives are pro-marriage because it is the first and best social saftey net instituted by God. A woman who waits to get married before becoming sexually active is not a likely candidate for abortion as birth control, or welfare. Social liberals believe everyone should have sex without any moral constraints. This more than anything has torn apart the family; and as the family goes, so goes the culture.

If one REALLY wants to reduce abortion and not just put women who have had abortion in prison, then it usually makes more sense to vote for the liberal candidate. This just makes no sense at all. Now I’m beginning to think your post is a gag to made liberals look irrational.

Now when we talk about anthropogenic climate change – which I’ve been following closely for over 20 years, and now looks like will in the next few centuries kill off a large portion of life on earth, if not all of life – most conservatives not only are against doing anything to reduce it (they are even against advising people to turn off lights not it use), they are denying its existence. They are extreme pro-death people. And there are other life-threatening environmental problems, that they refuse to admit or do anything about. It is rational to believe that when God made humankind as the crowning glory of His creation that He designed us to exhale a gas (CO2) that is actually harmful to the climate and therefore the ecosystem of the Earth? Is it rational to believe that CO2–which is necessary for plants to make food and therefore is the basis of all life in the food chain–is so harmful that it had to be declared a toxin by the EPA? Lynnvinc, I say this in charity–you need to do some research because the “Green” movement is the pro-death movement and it is an open secret. The basis of the green movement–and you simply cannot have failed to see this–is that PEOPLE are the problem. To them, fewer people will help solve the problems plaguing mother earth. Farming is responsible for releasing tons of greenhouse gases into the atmostphere. Farming is also how human beings grow food to eat so they can live. If you are an extreme environmentalist you see a problem here.

Now when it comes to the death penalty, conservatives tend to be more in favor of it than liberals, and there are lots of innocent people who get executed (one my Republican gov Perry executed KNOWING he was innocent…but there is this conservative desire for blood), not to mention the Catholic Church is against the death penalty.I have written several posts on why this statement is a myth. The burden is on you to back this up with evidence.

So, in all conscientiousness, I really don’t see how a good Catholic could vote for a conservative of today. I know the conservatives of the past were fine – like Nixon. I used to be a Republican myself back then. But now they are exceedingly pro-death. It would be impossible for me to vote for them, even if I thought they might help the economy (and I think they are out to unwittingly destroy that too).

Life is precious. God’s gift. We should not be in the business of snuffing it out, or voting for those that would cause society to do so.
I hope you really mean this, because if you do you will educate yourself on the issues better and use your knowledge to argue your point instead of just calling people names.
 
to love to learn —I am afraid to answer this because I do not want to insult your intelkligence and my choice of words and thoughts would possibly hurt. really think you need to “learn more”. you talk of climate change, death penalty, support for abortionists – and you compare this to the political party which promotes abortions, euthansia, embryonic stemcell research, human cloning, homosexuality, same sex marriage, eliminating God from our lives? How can these beliefs and practises equate with the faith of a practising Catholic?
Dear jdau,
I am against everything you just mentioned. Those beliefs and practices are grave moral evils.

If I am missing the point of your question, please clarify.
 
. Collectively bargaining for wages and benefits leads to better pay and benefits giving the employees more economic freedom.

Peace,

David
Just out of curosity, does you preferred economic system allow an employee to negotiate their own contract with an employer independant of the union.

For example, a school system needs a physics teacher. They are harder to find than a, say, art or english teacher.

Should a prosective physics teacher be allowed to negotiate their own private contract instead of the union contract, one that would give her more salary and vacation time?

And since it would their own contract, and not one that was negotiated and managed by the union, this physics teacher would be under no obligation to join the union nor pay the union any dues nor service fees.

Do you think that workers should have those rights?
 
How can you possibly think he was pro-abortion and pro gay marriage? Boggles my mind.

Liberals want everyone brought down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives strive to give everyone a chance to have an upper class life.
How can you possibly mistake “liberal” for “Democrat?”

Conservatives are all about individual liberty, or personal freedom. Is God all about individual liberty? No, if you don’t do his will, he will punish you.

Conservatism says “we will protect you from ideology,” and Catholicism is an ideology.
 
How can you possibly mistake “liberal” for “Democrat?”

Conservatives are all about individual liberty, or personal freedom. Is God all about individual liberty? No, if you don’t do his will, he will punish you.

Conservatism says “we will protect you from ideology,” and Catholicism is an ideology.
Well, respectfully, that is how I always understood liberalism to be defined. May I ask how you define it?

I say that God is about individual liberty. After all, we are free to choose or refuse Him. Yes, there is punishment if we refuse, but it is still our choice and He respects that. God Himself made us a free people. It’s how we use that freedom that dictates our eternal destiny.
 
A few questions:

-Do people who dog on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh actually view/listen to said programs? I get this strong feeling that the answer is no. I don’t watch or listen either so I can’t say anything about them. But I’ve heard things that people say and it’s typically repeated grandiose insults that never actually detail these programs.

-Is it legitimate to be in favor of unrestricted, unregulated capitalism if you believe that is the best way to help people become successful and lift the poor out of poverty? I understand the immediate gratification that comes with giving people money, and how easy it is to pat yourself on the back for being a good person and checking a box on the ballot that results in millions being taxed against their will and the government giving poor people free stuff, BUT what if you sincerely think that the voter isn’t actually helping those people by telling the government to do any of that stuff, and that the poor would better helped in a system in which the only act of charity is performed at the will of good citizens? And that an unregulated system more fully allows people to be charitable on their own accords and opens up more opportunity for the poor to get things called jobs rather than useless currency, and that would have a more lasting effect on the poor person’s social status…

Is that acceptable? Because when you get down to it, liberal and conservative Christians both want to do what’s best for the poor, they just have different views on how to best accomplish that. Why is it that in order to be pro-poor, you have to be pro-welfare and pro-government programs?
 
Just out of curosity, does you preferred economic system allow an employee to negotiate their own contract with an employer independant of the union.

For example, a school system needs a physics teacher. They are harder to find than a, say, art or english teacher.

Should a prosective physics teacher be allowed to negotiate their own private contract instead of the union contract, one that would give her more salary and vacation time?

And since it would their own contract, and not one that was negotiated and managed by the union, this physics teacher would be under no obligation to join the union nor pay the union any dues nor service fees.

Do you think that workers should have those rights?
Its funny you should mention a physics teachers salary. I happen to be a physicist, I have a Masters degree in Physics and Material Science and have taught college freshman physics. I only taught for a couple of years during the recession because I was out of work and needed to find something. I am currently working as an engineer for the Department of the Navy.

To answer your question, to my knoweldge in a public high school under the Teachers Union Contract science and mathematics teachers are paid a premium salary and therefore receive a higher salary then lets say an English or a History teacher. I believe this is just so as long as the other teachers are paid a living wage. Nevertheless, to support the common good I believe all teachers in a public school system should belong to the teachers union so as long as the union provides for their members a contract with just benefits and wages so they can support their families. Again I will cite the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

*2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.

2435 Recourse to a strike is morally legitimate when it cannot be avoided, or at least when it is necessary to obtain a proportionate benefit. It becomes morally unacceptable when accompanied by violence, or when objectives are included that are not directly linked to working conditions or are contrary to the common good. *
Here’s what Pope Benedict XVI said in his most recent encyclical from August 2009 regarding the need for workers to have the freedom to form unions:

Through the combination of social and economic change, trade union organizations experience greater difficulty in carrying out their task of representing the interests of workers, partly because Governments, for reasons of economic utility, often limit the freedom or the negotiating capacity of labor unions. Hence traditional networks of solidarity have more and more obstacles to overcome. The repeated calls issued within the Church’s social doctrine, beginning with Rerum Novarum, for the promotion of workers’ associations that can defend their rights must therefore be honored today even more than in the past, as a prompt and far-sighted response to the urgent need for new forms of cooperation at the international level, as well as the local level.
The Vatican and a wide variety of Catholic leaders have continued to express support throughout the year for workers’ freedom to form unions, and many Catholic scholars and organizations like the Catholic Labor Network and Catholics for Working Families have come out in support of the Employee Free Choice Act.

Peace,David
 
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