Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[ConstantinePX]

Where would you say that falls economically? Particularly with regard to the supposed capitalism-socialism continuum?

In the middle. While the Church could be considered liberal in the sense of our piety in welfare of people, we are at the same time accustomed to promoting the age old ideal of ‘teach a man to fish and feed him for a life time’, which would be more falling into capitalism, as opposed to social welfare statism or socialism.

You also have to remember the Church was founded and recognized in Imperial Rome, and the church was directly organized according to Constantine’s prefecture administration of the government and economy. So a hint of control economy with some mixed market values that existed in Rome in the 4th-15th centuries.

 

[starshiptrooper]

You can disagree, but the opinion put forward by the Church matches exactly what I posted.

Interestingly enough, I can say the same thing about what I posted.

You are correct though, in your posting, that the crime must first merit the punishment.

from the CCC
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2267

Paragraph #2267 of the CCC is non-binding. The first section is incorrect, the second section is debatable, and the third section is clearly personal opinion on a subject unrelated to faith or morals.

While it’s all well and good to say money shouldn’t be a factor, the fact of the matter is such practical concerns do exist. In the USA, we oppose the death penalty because we can afford non-leathal means to protect society.

I’m support the death penalty, not because it is far more effective than a prison sentence at protecting society, but because I believe the death penalty is required as retribution for certain crimes.

 

[ConstantinePX]

While it’s all well and good to say money shouldn’t be a factor, the fact of the matter is such practical concerns do exist. In the USA, we oppose the death penalty because we can afford non-leathal means to protect society.

As working in Law enforcement, this is false, at least in the state I live in. It is nearly millions in cost to the local tax payer to keep life without parolers A/C’d and fed.

But I digress. “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:19

EDIT: Not that this is the main reason I support Death penalty, Im more in support because some crimes need to be dealt with by execution, not out of hatred or vengeance, or spite, but for the simple fact that the person has proven a malignant force and proven beyond control to harm others.

 

[Jocko_VT]

In the middle.

It strikes me that “in the middle” is precisely where the Church’s teaching is. Just looking at the Rerum Novarum and Economic Justice for All and the CCC make this very clear, I think. It’s something I find very attractive about Catholicism.

Alas, we’re so far from that middle place in the US, though.

 

[lynnvinc]

Where would you say that falls economically? Particularly with regard to the supposed capitalism-socialism continuum?

Modern capitalism of the past 2 or so centuries is a relatively new form of economy…which went way too far (after the advent of industrialization) in harming lots of people, so socialism and communism arose as a corrective to address its problems…but then those went too far in other wrong directions.

And I think BXVI speaks to the serious moral problems of both systems in “Caritas et Veritate,” especially in the late modern context of increased globalization.

And there is the 3rd issue he raises, which is the serious destruction of our ecological life support systems by both capitalism and socialism.

Maybe he’s hinting at a 3rd way, maybe something like distributism, or deliberative democracy, involving well educated, moral people, making wise, moral, and compassionate decisions. Not the system we have now where the multinationals (which have no heart or soul, but are given status as persons) own the political system and control the media and (increasingly) our educational system…and are seeping into religious institutions.

---

DISTRIBUTISM
DELIBERATIVE DEMOCRACY

 

[Jocko_VT]

Modern capitalism of the past 2 or so centuries is a relatively new form of economy…which went way too far (after the advent of industrialization) in harming lots of people, so socialism and communism arose as a corrective to address its problems…but then those went too far in other wrong directions.

Agreed!

And I think BXVI speaks to the serious moral problems of both systems in “Caritas et Veritate,” especially in the late modern context of increased globalization.

And there is the 3rd issue he raises, which is the serious destruction of our ecological life support systems by both capitalism and socialism.

I *just *started reading these documents (literally within the last week!), and I was planning on putting off the current Pope’s work until last. Given what you say here, I believe I’ll change that plan and jump right into Caritas et Veritate.

I don’t know how Catholics feel about these works (what are they called? Encyclicals?), or how often they read them, but I’ve found them very moving and they’ve really set me to thinking.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Modern capitalism of the past 2 or so centuries is a relatively new form of economy…which went way too far (after the advent of industrialization) in harming lots of people, so socialism and communism arose as a corrective to address its problems…but then those went too far in other wrong directions.

On the other hand, capitalism is responsible for the invention and rapid manufacturing of many products that provide social benefits our ancestors could only dream about.

And I think BXVI speaks to the serious moral problems of both systems in “Caritas et Veritate,” especially in the late modern context of increased globalization.

And there is the 3rd issue he raises, which is the serious destruction of our ecological life support systems by both capitalism and socialism.

Ecological destruction is not caused by socialism or capitalism, but by those who don’t care. These people will appear in any economic system you can think of.

Maybe he’s hinting at a 3rd way, maybe something like distributism, or deliberative democracy, involving well educated, moral people, making wise, moral, and compassionate decisions. Not the system we have now where the multinationals (which have no heart or soul, but are given status as persons) own the political system and control the media and (increasingly) our educational system…and are seeping into religious institutions.

I have three problems with distributism.

1. A capitalist or socialist econcomy in wartime would be superior to a distributist economy.
2. How do you prevent big business from appearing in a distributist economy? Do you make it illegal for private businesses to expand beyond a certain point?
3. Some products require a big business to produce them.

 

[ConstantinePX]

You have to be careful when using ‘3rd way’ as it was recently coined for far left liberal-socialists … I have even seen it used to refer to fascist far rightism

In the general sense, its better to say ‘Neither extreme capitalism where we devolve into a plutocracy but neither extreme socialism where our society degrades due to state welfarism and entitlement without due cause.’

Sadly in the USA and in Europe we havent been able to find a balance between the two. sigh

 

[Jocko_VT]

On the other hand, capitalism is responsible for the invention and rapid manufacturing of many products that provide social benefits our ancestors could only dream about.

Do we really need those things? Are the means, intentions, and consequences all moral? Are most of these social benefits really outright benefits, or do they come at an extraordinary cost that we’ve yet to pay (by destroying social relationships and creating a scenario for catastrophe through worldwide famine, for example)?

Ecological destruction is not caused by socialism or capitalism, but by those who don’t care. These people will appear in any economic system you can think of.

I don’t know about socialism, but I disagree concerning capitalism. Capitalism is all about creating wealth, and this inevitably leads to large scales of production. The consequence is to remove the consequences of individual actions from the actions themselves (think alienation, broadly understood). Thus, I think ecological destruction *is *caused by capitalism (and here I’m talking about pure, free market capitalism). For example, a lot of people who *do *care about the environment nonetheless contribute to its destruction by, say, eating fast food, or other food that is produced in such a way as to destroy the environment (like processed foods made out of corn and meat grown in concentrated animal feeding operations–CAFOs), or by purchasing products made in areas of the world with limited environmental protections so that capitalist can produce cheaply and make more profit. Furthermore, economic systems permeate the rest of society, and the hyper-individualistic mentality promoted and required by extreme capitalism is not conducive to environmental protection in that it increases externalization of costs–so people are more willing to pump pollution into the air and water, despite the fact that it’s killing us, because their only interest is in making profit.

I think the point to a “middle way,” which may not really be in the middle, but may just be outside the capitalism-socialism continuum, is to put humans and morality before economics. I don’t think capitalism can do that, and that elements of capitalism can only be used with extreme caution in an effort to bring about social justice.

 

[Jocko_VT]

I have three problems with distributism.

What’s the most perfect economic system? Is there such a thing?

1. A capitalist or socialist econcomy in wartime would be superior to a distributist economy.

Should we organize life around the promise of war? Do a capitalist or socialist systems perhaps increase the probability of war? In a capitalist system where economic growth is necessary and resources are limited, is it not guaranteed that the military will be necessary in order to secure resources from other states? Might, say, distributism, make preparation for war less common and less necessary?

1. How do you prevent big business from appearing in a distributist economy? Do you make it illegal for private businesses to expand beyond a certain point?

Like anti-trust laws do in capitalism to promote competition? Is this really a problem with distributism?

1. Some products require a big business to produce them.

For example? And do we need those products, particularly at the cost of social life generally? Is it impossible to create them within a distributive economy? I think of medicine as being an important example here, but can we not sort this out?

 

[davidmlamb]

I *just *started reading these documents (literally within the last week!), and I was planning on putting off the current Pope’s work until last. Given what you say here, I believe I’ll change that plan and jump right into Caritas et Veritate.

I don’t know how Catholics feel about these works (what are they called? Encyclicals?), or how often they read them, but I’ve found them very moving and they’ve really set me to thinking.

Praise God! This is a good report! I believe these encyclicals are inspired by God and modern epistles to address modern problems and situations that did not exist during the time of the apostles. The Pope’s are the successors of Saint Peter, they are to “feed the sheep” the Word of God. Catholics should read and meditate upon them because they have the power to correct our paths if we are being seduced to the wrong direction. The Pope is our pastor and we should consider his words carefully and prayerfully.

To Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever amen!

David

 

[Faithdancer]

When I was a kid, it seemed that Catholicism and membership in the Democratic party went hand in hand, more often than not. This trend may even have contributed to the election of JFK, whose electability had been widely questioned in the American media on the basis of his Catholicism.

We quite possibly would have had a second Catholic president but sadly he too, like his brother, was gunned down.

I predict- just guessing- that the next viable Catholic candidate for the presidency will be a member of the Democratic party.

 

[ConstantinePX]

When I was a kid, it seemed that Catholicism and membership in the Democratic party went hand in hand, more often than not. This trend may even have contributed to the election of JFK, whose electability had been widely questioned in the American media on the basis of his Catholicism.

We quite possibly would have had a second Catholic president but sadly he too, like his brother, was gunned down.

I predict- just guessing- that the next viable Catholic candidate for the presidency will be a member of the Democratic party.

Yes, but back in the late 70’s the majority of democrats with Christian/Conservative leanings joined in the Republican party and such, before then the Democrat part was the conservative bastion as Dixiecrats and stuff

I predict- just guessing- that the next viable Catholic candidate for the presidency will be a member of the Democratic party.

NONONONONONONONNONONONO

Democrat party presses homosexual union and abortion!!!

 

[Faithdancer]

Agreed!

I *just *started reading these documents (literally within the last week!), and I was planning on putting off the current Pope’s work until last. Given what you say here, I believe I’ll change that plan and jump right into Caritas et Veritate.

I don’t know how Catholics feel about these works (what are they called? Encyclicals?), or how often they read them, but I’ve found them very moving and they’ve really set me to thinking.

I’m in the final 1/3 of Verbum Domine, also partway through Jesus of Nazareth, and now have added Caritas et Veritate to my short list for reading, although my plans may be thwarted when I receive my reading lists for Fall classes at the end of the month (Holy Apostles College and Seminary, MA Theology- Sacred Scripture, class of ?).

 

[Faithdancer]

I’m in the final 1/3 of Verbum Domine, also partway through Jesus of Nazareth, and now have added Caritas et Veritate to my short list for reading, although my plans may be thwarted when I receive my reading lists for Fall classes at the end of the month (Holy Apostles College and Seminary, MA Theology- Sacred Scripture, class of ?).

Sorry, that’s Caritas in Veritate!

 

[Faithdancer]

NONONONONONONONNONONONO!

LOL hey Constantine, tell us how you REALLY feel!

Seriously, though, I don’t know that all Democratic politicians are pro-abortion, or that all Republican candidates are anti-abortion. Whichever party they belong to, however, all faithful Catholics are required to be against abortion, last I heard anyway.

 

[ConstantinePX]

LOL hey Constantine, tell us how you REALLY feel!

Seriously, though, I don’t know that all Democratic politicians are pro-abortion, or that all Republican candidates are anti-abortion. Whichever party they belong to, however, all faithful Catholics are required to be against abortion, last I heard anyway.

That makes about as much sense as saying ‘I can support the Nazi party and personally not like mass genocide, and it makes it ok.’

 

[Jocko_VT]

That makes about as much sense as saying ‘I can support the Nazi party and personally not like mass genocide, and it makes it ok.’

Both parties are at odds with the Catholic Church, though. One concerning gay marriage and abortion, the other on economic issues. (in reality, I’d argue that both major parties are at odds with the Church on economic issues, but the Democrats at least have some individuals who lean far enough to the American left to match Church teachings on economics.)

Personally, I think the next viable presidential candidate who happens to be Catholic will be viable only insofar as his/her Catholicism doesn’t get in the way, because I don’t think either party will nominate a strict Catholic.

 

[Rand2410]

Hi all~

I know that you cannot be both Catholic and pro-choice due to what we believe and practice as Catholics, but is it possible to be a liberal and still be a good Catholic? A lot of my extended family is left-wing, yet claim to be Catholic. My immediate family is fully conservative, however, and I have never doubted that. Is it that I don’t fully understand the term “liberal” and think that you must automatically be conservative if you’re Catholic?

Please help me understand and excuse my political ignorance…

~Therese

Can a Catholic be pro-choice and anti-death penalty? Seems like a contradiction to me?

 

[Jocko_VT]

Can a Catholic be pro-choice and anti-death penalty? Seems like a contradiction to me?

No more of a contradiction than being pro-death penalty and pro-life.

Regardless, there’s no litmus test to be conservative or liberal. You can be liberal *and *pro-life. Furthermore, if you’re going to vote, you’re unlikely to find a candidate in either party who represents catholic ideals perfectly, so whether you vote for someone who supports gay marriage, or someone who supports neoliberal economic policies, you’re going to be voting against your Church to some extent.