Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

[davidmlamb]

I’m a republican. I’m an environmental science major, My father retired from the EPA, I’m a 3 time war veteran, 9 years of service, 3 dogs, all 3 rescues, I recycle, I love nature, I hike, I love animals…SO, so much for the stigma of democrats being the only ones with a heart.

I oppose universal healthcare in this country VERY strongly. I will explain. It is a socialist program under the guise of a humanitarian aim. The democrats KNOW that “democrats are the heart people”. So what human being can say NO to EVERYONE having a doctor? This bill is a trojan horse! What is going to happen, is it’s going to create MORE spending, MORE government assertion, heck, doctors will be spread evenly geographically & be told where they can & can’t work, live etc. It would be a matter of time before the government dictated their pay. Doctors would become government employees. Doctors would lose freedom. WE would lose freedom. We wouldn’t be able to fly from Phoenix to NY because there’s a really good cancer doctor at Columbia University. You’d have a list of local names to choose from to maintain the illusion that you have a choice. Once socialism creeps in, it will spread & this is how it starts.
Also, You’ve GOT to love the idea that the democrats KNOW that their base is made up of idiots. THEY KNOW they’re idiots. Here’s the proof. Democrat: “Would you be willing to pay more taxes for a universal healthcare program?” SHEEP: Absolutely, that’s a great idea! ~Here’s the problem! THE BULK of the people who DONT pay taxes in this country are, guess what…DEMOCRATS!!! SO, they’re asking people that DONT pay taxes if they’d be willing to pay MORE taxes??? BUT, it’s a way to sneak in a talking point for them I guess

I’ve already debunked this Jason but you continue to persist in dishonesty. But lets get back to that in a minute. You don’t like Socialism yet you benefited from socialism for 9 years (the military) and that socialism is now getting your Bachelors degree. You said your Father worked for the EPA all his life, that means all the benifits and pay he ever received was by virtue of socialism including his health care. You claim that socialized medicine will limit to where you can get treatment, but medicare and medicaid patients can get their treatment anywhere in the United States. However, if you have a private HMO and PPO you have to go to their doctors. If you work for the government (socialism) like I do you get government health insurance known as the Federal Employees Health Care Benefit Plan. I can go anywhere in the United States and get treated with my “government control” health care. And this is exactly the case I find myself in now. I have a disease which I will not disclose but I chose the best hospital and doctors in the United States to treat this disease and the prognosis of recovery and living a long and healthy life is better then 90%. So I am from Springfield, Missouri and the hospital and doctor i chose is in Norfolk Virginia. My government job (socialism) accomodated me even further by transferring me to Norfolk, Virginia so I did not have to take a leave of absense from work. The government has been pretty darn generous to me as well as you and your dad. And how do you thank them? By committing slander!

You claim that government health care will dictate a physicians pay. Most doctors pay Is “dictated” by their employer (Hospitals and Medical groups), as is every working class person in the United States. So your argument is deceptive rhetoric and this is the second time I have called you on it.

The problem here Jason is that you have exchanged right wing conservatism for the Catholic faith. Let us hear the words of Saint Paul on this matter:

*I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:6-9 *

Peace,
David

 

[Jason_1977]

Jason, we have had government doctors in this country for decades such as VA doctors and doctors who take Medicare and Medicaid patients as well as military doctors. The only doctors who work or contract with the government that are ordered to go live in certain places are military doctors. But military doctors have it better then civilian doctors because they do not have to pay malpractice insurance and they usually get to choose their duty stations not to mention their sweet retirement package.

With respect to Doctors having their pay “dictated.” 95% of all doctors work for hospitals and have their pay “dictated” to them. The working class all have their pay “dictated” to them. I’m an engineer, if I decide tomorrow I am going to tell the company I work for that they have to give me a 10,000 dollar raise they’re going to laugh me out of the room or tell me to go somewhere else and find that salary. Hey Jason, tomorrow go tell your boss that he can no longer dictate your pay and that he has to give you a 5000 dollar raise and see how that works out for you.

Jason, why do you resort to this kind of rhetoric? Do you realize that the Catholic Church teaches that lying, deception, and slander are serious sins? Do you receive holy communion without confessing this sin? I council you to examine your conscience and maybe spend some time in prayer and bible study. A daily rosary can really help purge this vice from you.

Peace,
David

For your first point, thank you for pointing out the obvious. You and I both know that I am not talking about VA / MILITARY / etc. doctors. We are talking about the everyday doctors. Don’t get it twisted. I’m actually a naval reservist of 4 years with 6 years of active service. I think I have enough background information to make an informed assessment.

As for your second point: I was referring to CIVILIAN, again, “everyday” doctors, having their pay dictated BY THE GOVERNMENT. A greeter at walmart has THEIR pay dictated, but we’re not talking about a universal department store bill being passed into law either!

As for your third point: None of your concern. MY every day or spirituality is NOT a part of this discussion and as far as my rhetoric? I would look into your reading comprehension and perhaps take for granted that not EVERYONE has the IQ of a beachball, and perhaps assume that he knows the difference between the VA and regular private sector doctors. You took quite a liberty putting your nose in MY spiritual business. Ear mark of a nosey fundamentalist here in South Carolina.

In all, I think you’ve managed to miss the point altogether, took a shot in the pitch black and missed. I love ya I do, but don’t feed the sharks.

 

[Jason_1977]

I’ve already debunked this Jason but you continue to persist in dishonesty. But lets get back to that in a minute. You don’t like Socialism yet you benefited from socialism for 9 years (the military) and that socialism is now getting your Bachelors degree. You said your Father worked for the EPA all his life, that means all the benifits and pay he ever received was by virtue of socialism including his health care. You claim that socialized medicine will limit to where you can get treatment, but medicare and medicaid patients can get their treatment anywhere in the United States. However, if you have a private HMO and PPO you have to go to their doctors. If you work for the government (socialism) like I do you get government health insurance known as the Federal Employees Health Care Benefit Plan. I can go anywhere in the United States and get treated with my “government control” health care. And this is exactly the case I find myself in now. I have a disease which I will not disclose but I chose the best hospital and doctors in the United States to treat this disease and the prognosis of recovery and living a long and healthy life is better then 90%. So I am from Springfield, Missouri and the hospital and doctor i chose is in Norfolk Virginia. My government job (socialism) accomodated me even further by transferring me to Norfolk, Virginia so I did not have to take a leave of absense from work. The government has been pretty darn generous to me as well as you and your dad. And how do you thank them? By committing slander!

You claim that government health care will dictate a physicians pay. Most doctors pay Is “dictated” by their employer (Hospitals and Medical groups), as is every working class person in the United States. So your argument is deceptive rhetoric and this is the second time I have called you on it.

The problem here Jason is that you have exchanged right wing conservatism for the Catholic faith. Let us hear the words of Saint Paul on this matter:

*I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:6-9 *

Peace,
David

Dishonesty? Are you calling me a LIAR? Are you going out of your way to prove to me that you’re about as smart as a bag of hammers? OK: Boy meets world. School is in session.

Point 1: The Military is not a socialist occupation. It is an Occupation. TRUE that in many cases it is not a democracy, but then a military never WAS a democracy, STILL, OUR MILITARY IS DEFENDING A DEMOCRACY. It was a paying job. The job has benefits. ONE OF THE BENEFITS IS A GI BILL WHICH A PERSON HAS TO PAY INTO IN ORDER TO RECEIVE IT!!! I ALSO GOT THE 9/11 GI BILL BECAUSE I HAVE FOUGHT THE SAME WAR 3 TIMES! THIS is not socialism, it’s a benefit in return for putting MY BEHIND on the line for YOU!!! Ever hear the saying, “FORTUNE FAVORS THE BRAVE”?

SECOND POINT: The government is able to hire & write checks. They, like other COMPANIES have health benefits. I FAIL to see how THIS is socialism.

THIRD POINT: I don’t see where I’ve lied, seeing as how I am a service member, (oh yeah) AND A FEDERAL EMPLOYEE, I think the disease you have is stupidity, among other issues. Perhaps it’s a lack of intelligence. I’m not sure you can say I exchanged Catholicism for COnservatism, THAT is a pretty stupid thing to say. It’s ignorant in fact. I could easily say youve exchanged your catholicism for communism. THe very thing Pope John Paul II fought to bring down in the soviet union, so let’s dispense with the B.S., shall we? I’m not sure why you call it deceptive rhetoric, I’ve nothing to gain by lying, and I have 9 years of military service experience to know pretty much that the military isn’t socialist. It’s a team effort, yes, we depend on each other, yes, but for SURVIVAL, not for capital gains, not for housing, not for medicine…you’re greatly confused my friend.

What’s with all this perverting the gospel nonsense? where is this coming from, you sound WORSE than a fundamentalist! You actually seem like you’ve missed your meds or they just kicked in, I’m not trying to insult you, but no SANE person can make the assertions you have and pretty much get away with it and not turn a head or two. I’m actually worried about you now that I think about it.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan;8236719:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason_1977
Yeah I get the history, but it takes a lot more than you to burst my bubble

, LMAO But hey, conservatives weren’t exactly attacking police stations in the '60s either,

dude, what are you talking about. Get to a point soon or I’m going to ignore you. Back to the topic of socialized medicine? Or are you simply trying to get goads here? You’re trying to tell me that one is more corrupt than the other. The truth is both sides are corrupt, so there’s your reality check bouncing. SO, for the last time, socialized medicine? Discuss or peddle your wares elsewhere =)

Tie off the wind bag “Dude”. Get really educated with some maturity , experience and age!In a few simple words, this country has been a mixed economy now for over 50years and it has worked very well for all of us up until now. And the fight will continue on with the likes of you who want to kill it, Socialism and Capitalism will continue to work together for the common good of all . No system us utopia, and like it or not Democracy is the best we’ve got though and, even so, not perfect.
By the way, I am a woman, and old enough to be your Grandmother if not your Great Grandmother!
Peace, Carlan

 

[sw85]

It is the height of dishonesty to attribute mere government spending to “socialism.”

Anyone who says is much is very clearly ignorant of what socialism is.

 

[Jason_1977]

No but they sure do attack the White House and the Presidency today with more vigulance then any Hippie ever did. Conservastism is the new liberalism.

Peace,
David

Okay, I’m officially having a conversation with the entire cast of “THE MUPPET SHOW”.
It’s beyond stating that conservatives have never set fire to the white house the way liberals did to police stations in the 60’s. The attacks on the president are legitimate, and my friend, if you are so blind as to not even see them right in front of your nose, then nothing I can say is going to inject you with an ioda of UNCOMMON sense.

Conservatism is the new liberalism? I have news for you. You are pending a doctor telling you the words, “YOU sir, are clinically insane.” With regard to your example, I assume the verbal FORCE that is being used? Let me put it to you like this, Jefferson said something about when a People fear their government, there is TYRANNY, when a government fears the PEOPLE, there is LIBERTY!

Let that marinade in your noodle for a while, let the drugs wear off, and PLEASE, if you don’t make ANY ounce of sense in your next message, I’m done. I’m beyond thinking I’m talking to anyone that has any sense.

 

[davidmlamb]

It is the height of dishonesty to attribute mere government spending to “socialism.”

Anyone who says is much is very clearly ignorant of what socialism is.

Yes it is! But since Jason resorted to personal insults and ad hominem attacks (indicative of his character) I will not address his post directly. That being said, Jason doesn’t know what socialism is. I tried to point out to him that his government job including the military as well as social security and medicare are all forms of socialism. The military and federal employment are government ran angencies who receive their funding from tax payers and not investors or the free market. This is how socialism works. In a socialist society, the government owns and operates industry (with some exceptions). Pay and benefits are received by the government as a cooperative effort between labor and government. Hence, the military is a socialist society that works for the cause of democracy. The VA and Naval Hospitals are all examples of socialized medicine that actually work very well. Working for the government you are also receiving your pay and benefits the same way socialism works. Social Security and Medicare are socialism. You pay into a government benefit and in return you get the benefit. There is nothing wrong with any of this if it is limited so that a free market is the main driving force of the economny and that free market serves the totality of the community where it operates.

Universal Health Care is something that Catholic Bishops have been calling on the United States to implement since at least 1981. It is a good system if it is properly funded and operated. I think we as a nation can achieve this for the common good. It is hypocrisy to critisize socialism when the person doing the critisizing is benefiting from socialism.

I hope that Jason can see his error and mature spiritually.

Peace,

David

 

[Jason_1977]

The problem I, and all Christians (should) have with what you posted is this:

You seek to legitimize the sin of homosexuality, by normalizing it and bringing pretending to bring it into the context of “normal” marital relations. At the same time, you seek to further damange the institution of marriage, already gravely weakend (as you point out) by contraception, artifical steralization and things to which this leads, belief that perosnal sexual gratification is the source and summit of your marriage, belief that if you are board with your partner that your free to just find a new one (even if it’s just “on the side”) which then of course leads to those divorce rates you were discussing.

By pretending homosexuals can get married, you solidify the idea that children are neither here nor there in the context of marriage, but rather are now objects which we can choose to persue or avoid. The ultimate expression of this, is a British lottery where the grand prize is, a baby (to legitimize this, technically the prize is $25,000 in fertility treatments).

This is why homosexual marriage is a non-negotiable. I understand your view point, I once held it my self not long ago. But after reading what the Bishops have to say on the matter (actually, the Bishops of the Philippines were quite helpful), as well as having an oppertunity to view a small slice of the gay culture incidently, I have been throughly convinced of Holy Mother Church’s position on this matter.

I love how you and “everyone else” think you have the clairvoyance enough to “know my mind”. I don’t seek to legitimize it one bit. It’s already out there. Do people do it? Yes. Do we like it? no. Do they want rights? yes. DO I GIVE A DARN? NO!!! Also, if you’ve not seen the news, pretending homos get married? THEY ARE GETTING MARRIED!!! Wake up! I don’t care if they get the same rights, and I don’t care if they get married, I don’t care if they get neither, BUT, (I’ll repeat myself ) I object to their becoming a nuclear family. Put the crystal ball down and take it at face value and don’t try to read tea leaves and assert your retort with personal knowledge of MYSELF. It smacks of fundamentalism. There’s a LOT of ya out there doing it. SO assume there’s not a hidden agenda and just take for granted that I say what I mean at face value? Maybe? Can we do that? The last thing I’m seeking is an item on a homosexual’s shopping list of civic issues, LMAO!!! WHERE DO I ALWAYS FIND THESE PEOPLE!!!

 

[sw85]

Yes it is! But since Jason resorted to personal insults and ad hominem attacks (indicative of his character) I will not address his post directly. That being said, Jason doesn’t know what socialism is. I tried to point out to him that his government job including the military as well as social security and medicare are all forms of socialism. The military and federal employment are government ran angencies who receive their funding from tax payers and not investors or the free market. This is how socialism works. In a socialist society, the government owns and operates industry (with some exceptions). Pay and benefits are received by the government as a cooperative effort between labor and government. Hence, the military is a socialist society that works for the cause of democracy. The VA and Naval Hospitals are all examples of socialized medicine that actually work very well. Working for the government you are also receiving your pay and benefits the same way socialism works. Social Security and Medicare are socialism. You pay into a government benefit and in return you get the benefit. There is nothing wrong with any of this if it is limited so that a free market is the main driving force of the economny and that free market serves the totality of the community where it operates.

But that isn’t what socialism is. You might say government spending is a necessary but insufficient condition for socialism.

Socialism is a philosophy, not merely an institution; it entails a very specific (and anti-Christian) conception of the nature of man, of society, and of relation between the two. It also entails a specific (and again anti-Christian) conception of the nature of authority, community, and duty.

Even things like social security systems precede institutionalized socialism and can and do routinely exist without it. Anyone who thinks “socialism” amounts to nothing more than the government spending money has quite a bit of reading to do.

 

[Jason_1977]

Yes it is! But since Jason resorted to personal insults and ad hominem attacks (indicative of his character) I will not address his post directly. That being said, Jason doesn’t know what socialism is. I tried to point out to him that his government job including the military as well as social security and medicare are all forms of socialism. The military and federal employment are government ran angencies who receive their funding from tax payers and not investors or the free market. This is how socialism works. In a socialist society, the government owns and operates industry (with some exceptions). Pay and benefits are received by the government as a cooperative effort between labor and government. Hence, the military is a socialist society that works for the cause of democracy. The VA and Naval Hospitals are all examples of socialized medicine that actually work very well. Working for the government you are also receiving your pay and benefits the same way socialism works. Social Security and Medicare are socialism. You pay into a government benefit and in return you get the benefit. There is nothing wrong with any of this if it is limited so that a free market is the main driving force of the economny and that free market serves the totality of the community where it operates.

Universal Health Care is something that Catholic Bishops have been calling on the United States to implement since at least 1981. It is a good system if it is properly funded and operated. I think we as a nation can achieve this for the common good. It is hypocrisy to critisize socialism when the person doing the critisizing is benefiting from socialism.

I hope that Jason can see his error and mature spiritually.

Peace,

David

Dear sir,

You have called me a liar. You have changed the subject to attack me personally. I have sought to bring you back to the topic. We come back to the topic and you tell me that I’m not only a liar, but I’m trying to be deceptive. Sir, if you step on my foot, I will say ouch, if you step on my foot and tell me to get out of the way, we have a problem. You have gone beyond that. Reasoning with you has been like trying to use a phillips screwdriver to turn a screw w. a flat head.
My thinking is that you have a way of doing this with other people, I know sensible people when I come across them and my sense from you is you get people to stoop to your level, then you defeat them with experience. VA hospitals are NOT socialized medicine. Their services are reserved for certain people. If it was socialized, it would be for (watch for the root word now…) SOCIETY? Maybe? Ya think? There is a difference between a BENEFIT and SOCIALISM. I’ll give you an example. Medicare. you pay into that. GI BILL, you pay into that. OBAMA CARE: You would be REQUIRED to purchase that product for the rest of your life. Guess what? It’s Socialist. Proof? THE COURTS ARE CALLING IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Why are the courts calling it unconstitutional? SAY IT WITH ME? Because we’re in a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC…saavy? I am benefiting from paying into something. I made a career move. I was under contract. What they say goes, where they needed me, I went. I was under contract. Are socialists under contract? Hmmm…
As far as my spiritual life? Mind yer own business, thank you! That doesn’t concern you!

 

[davidmlamb]

But that isn’t what socialism is. You might say government spending is a necessary but insufficient condition for socialism.

Socialism is a philosophy, not merely an institution; it entails a very specific (and anti-Christian) conception of the nature of man, of society, and of relation between the two. It also entails a specific (and again anti-Christian) conception of the nature of authority, community, and duty.

Even things like social security systems precede institutionalized socialism and can and do routinely exist without it. Anyone who thinks “socialism” amounts to nothing more than the government spending money has quite a bit of reading to do.

I don’t agre that socialism is strictly a philosphy. Socialism is an economic system. Most socialism today is a democracy based socialism that operates within the free market. The European Union is a good example as is countries like Japan, Norway, and Sweden. You would be hard pressed to say that any of these countries are anti Christian the way we can characterize North Korea

Peace,
David

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[zz912]

Jason_1977;8237676:

Tie off the wind bag “Dude”. Get really educated with some maturity , experience and age!In a few simple words, this country has been a mixed economy now for over 50years and it has worked very well for all of us up until now. And the fight will continue on with the likes of you who want to kill it, Socialism and Capitalism will continue to work together for the common good of all . No system us utopia, and like it or not Democracy is the best we’ve got though and, even so, not perfect.
By the way, I am a woman, and old enough to be your Grandmother if not your Great Grandmother!
Peace, Carlan

The key to your post is “up until now”. You and previous generations have lived in excess of your means and run up a MASSIVE credit card bill with no intention of paying it off. And you have left that bill to my generation and our children and grandchildren. This is the nature of socialism, and one of the many reasons it was denounced by a couple of Popes.

Sadly, many people woke up to the reality of this massive overspending and tried to be responsible about it by working on balancing the budget and cutting spending. And the left refuses to allow this to happen.

 

[psychicharvard]

You seek to legitimize the sin of homosexuality, by normalizing it and bringing pretending to bring it into the context of “normal” marital relations. At the same time, you seek to further damange the institution of marriage, already gravely weakend (as you point out) by contraception, artifical steralization and things to which this leads, belief that perosnal sexual gratification is the source and summit of your marriage, belief that if you are board with your partner that your free to just find a new one (even if it’s just “on the side”) which then of course leads to those divorce rates you were discussing.

By pretending homosexuals can get married, you solidify the idea that children are neither here nor there in the context of marriage, but rather are now objects which we can choose to persue or avoid. The ultimate expression of this, is a British lottery where the grand prize is, a baby (to legitimize this, technically the prize is $25,000 in fertility treatments).

This is why homosexual marriage is a non-negotiable. I understand your view point, I once held it my self not long ago. But after reading what the Bishops have to say on the matter (actually, the Bishops of the Philippines were quite helpful), as well as having an oppertunity to view a small slice of the gay culture incidently, I have been throughly convinced of Holy Mother Church’s position on this matter.

Did you ever hear of “THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE”? The reasons you oppose homosexual unions is based on your religious beliefs. The fallacy in your logic is that you are attempting to exert your religious beliefs in the ares of the STATE. That is CIVIL UNIONS. Their are many unions the Church will frown, such as a 2 divorced people getting married, or a Catholic and a Jewish person getting married? So should the State forbid these marriages also?

Remember “SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE”. If you have an issue with the Constitution then take it up the Supreme Court, don’t make the homosexuals suffer for it.

 

[davidmlamb]

Carlan;8239098:

The key to your post is “up until now”. You and previous generations have lived in excess of your means and run up a MASSIVE credit card bill with no intention of paying it off. And you have left that bill to my generation and our children and grandchildren. This is the nature of socialism, and one of the many reasons it was denounced by a couple of Popes.

Sadly, many people woke up to the reality of this massive overspending and tried to be responsible about it by working on balancing the budget and cutting spending. And the left refuses to allow this to happen.

The Popes denunciation of socialism was stricktly a marxist socialism or a revolutionary socialism which is a totalitarian regime that impedes freedom of religion. The Popes do not condemn the socialism we find in Western Europe, Norwaigh, Sweden, Canada, and Japan. A lot of the spending we have is neccassary and if eliminated would be condemned by the USCCB. That would include social spending and cutting out social security for the average wage earner and those who are vulnerable to poverty. A great deal of our debt was not accumulated because of social spending but on military spending during the past 30 years while at the same time cutting taxes in the name of creating jobs (something proven to be ineffective). The Pope and the bishops condemned the war in Iraq but they never condemened welfare or education spending. In order to pay back a debt you need to raise revenue for that debt. if I owe thousands of dollars in credit cards cutting spending on food, rent, and utilites is not going to pay off those bills. I’m going to have to go out and get a second job to help pay off those bills. However, Republicans do not go out and get a second job to pay off those debts, instead they take an unpaid vacation and borrow the money. This is the real problem. It cost money to run a government, you don’t cut spending in education, or the police department. you don’t cut out or reduce social security payments for average or low income retirees. Neither do you ignore 50 milion people who have no access to health care simply because we think we cannot afford it. These things require inflationary adjustments which are just increases in spending. You cover increases in spending by raising revenue. That is what is meant by rendering to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.

Peace,
David

 

[psychicharvard]

Why is this even question? This question seems to rest on how one sees socialism, capitalism, abortion, and homosexuality.

However, one’s take on any of these topics does not designate him/her a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or any other religion. The major tenements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other religions are not based on these issues. In fact if you look all three of the religions have the same similar or outlook. So why is it that we are arguing over this?

I think what should focus on is what makes Catholics unique from members in other religions. THAT’S WHAT MAKES ONE CATHOLIC.

If the question was, “Can on pray Allah and still be Catholic?” Then of course, no. Or if someone asked, “Can someone believe in the 5 points of Calvinism and still be Catholic?” Then I would say, no.

True, the Catholic Church does oppose abortion, but it also opposes divorce even in cases of domestic violence. In Catholic marriage ceremonies the priest used to ask if the woman would “obey” her husband but that has changed to “respect” in the past decades. So I see the Church as providing a moral guideline to follow. Should people divorce just because they tire of eachother, of course not, so from this perspective the Church is right. Is it moral to ask a woman to submit to countless beatings so as not to divorce her husband? No, it is not. So here is an area that the Church has not yet addressed entirely.

In abortion, should a woman engage in casual sex with the attitude of “it if get pregnant then I’ll just get an abortion”. No. But should our sons be taught at an early age that they are equally responsible for the result of ANY and ALL casual sexual encounters they have with a girl or woman so as not put a female in the position of having to abort a baby? Yes. And as Catholics have we made a decree to do this? No. And if Catholic women are having abortions, is it possible that the men that are impregnating them are Catholic also? Very much.

What I am saying is that on these issues the Church has moral standing that we must heed. But as thinking humans we must understand it’s shortcomings and deal with that result the best way we can.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Did you ever hear of “THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE”? The reasons you oppose homosexual unions is based on your religious beliefs. The fallacy in your logic is that you are attempting to exert your religious beliefs in the ares of the STATE. That is CIVIL UNIONS. Their are many unions the Church will frown, such as a 2 divorced people getting married, or a Catholic and a Jewish person getting married? So should the State forbid these marriages also?

Remember “SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE”. If you have an issue with the Constitution then take it up the Supreme Court, don’t make the homosexuals suffer for it

.

Just in case you didn’t know, “Seperation of Church and State” isn’t mentioned anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. The STATE is prohibited from restricting religion or establishing a national religion (at the time the Constitution was written, individual states, could and did have state religions though). Religions (or more accurately people with various religious views) are not prohibited from projecting those views into public affairs. As a practical matter this would be impossible for anyone with sincere religious convictions which shape their entire life.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

But should our sons be taught at an early age that they are equally responsible for the result of ANY and ALL casual sexual encounters they have with a girl or woman so as not put a female in the position of having to abort a baby? Yes.

1. It depends on what you mean by “an early age”. If you are talking about pre-puberty, then there is no need to talk to sons or daughters about sexual encounters at all.
2. Even better than teaching our sons to be responsible for the results of their casual sex…teach our sons not to have sex outside of marriage- casual or otherwise.

Pax and God Bless!

 

[davidmlamb]

Why is this even question? This question seems to rest on how one sees socialism, capitalism, abortion, and homosexuality.

However, one’s take on any of these topics does not designate him/her a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or any other religion. The major tenements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other religions are not based on these issues. In fact if you look all three of the religions have the same similar or outlook. So why is it that we are arguing over this?

I think what should focus on is what makes Catholics unique from members in other religions. THAT’S WHAT MAKES ONE CATHOLIC.

If the question was, “Can on pray Allah and still be Catholic?” Then of course, no. Or if someone asked, “Can someone believe in the 5 points of Calvinism and still be Catholic?” Then I would say, no.

True, the Catholic Church does oppose abortion, but it also opposes divorce even in cases of domestic violence. In Catholic marriage ceremonies the priest used to ask if the woman would “obey” her husband but that has changed to “respect” in the past decades. So I see the Church as providing a moral guideline to follow. Should people divorce just because they tire of eachother, of course not, so from this perspective the Church is right. Is it moral to ask a woman to submit to countless beatings so as not to divorce her husband? No, it is not. So here is an area that the Church has not yet addressed entirely.

In abortion, should a woman engage in casual sex with the attitude of “it if get pregnant then I’ll just get an abortion”. No. But should our sons be taught at an early age that they are equally responsible for the result of ANY and ALL casual sexual encounters they have with a girl or woman so as not put a female in the position of having to abort a baby? Yes. And as Catholics have we made a decree to do this? No. And if Catholic women are having abortions, is it possible that the men that are impregnating them are Catholic also? Very much.

What I am saying is that on these issues the Church has moral standing that we must heed. But as thinking humans we must understand it’s shortcomings and deal with that result the best way we can.

Social justice is a very big part of the Catholic faith and many times it is what seperates us from Protestants because we have defined morals about these things. Many things in the Social Justice teachings of the Church have been construed by the right as being communism or marxism. The Social Justice teachings of the Church talks about the ligitamacy of governing authorities and levying taxes to support the common good. Much of this is underminded by right wing conservatism which for many Catholics has been a subsitute for the Catholic faith. I take issue with this. In order to have a just society the common good must be promoted and supported and that is a moral issue. Does that make me a liberal? Perhaps but it also makes me a faithful Catholic. So to answer the title of this thread, YES you can be both liberal and catholic with limitations. You can also be both conservative and Catholic with limitations. Those limitations are crossing boundaries between good and evil.

Peace,
David

 

[Dan_Daly]

David,

We’ve disagreed quite a bit on these forums, but this:

So to answer the title of this thread, YES you can be both liberal and catholic with limitations. You can also be both conservative and Catholic with limitations. **Those limitations are crossing boundaries between good and evil./**QUOTE]

Is about as well said as it can get. The Truth of the faith is the standard we must follow- not any political party’s platform or movement’s agenda.

I’m sure we can and will continue to disagree on some of the particulars on how to do that, but having that common anchor in the faith makes those disagreements, even sometimes heated ones, something that can be discussed and worked through with charity.

God bless and have a great day.

Pax!