Can you be both Catholic and liberal?

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Hm. Well, that is an interesting and very confining definition of liberal. It has the benefit of being simple, though. At least with this definition, we all know whether or not we are liberals. Using that definition, we can also answer the OP- which from the beginning I have thought impossible. Hooray for simple definitions!

Unfortunately, I completely disagree with the definition. Since on the majority of current political issues, I am pretty predictably liberal, I generally consider myself politically liberal but also pro-life. I am not going to jump into a million different specific issues here, but my political beliefs are informed by my Catholic faith, and generally specifically by the USCCB. There is a lot of room for political disagreement in the Church.

The conversation will continue to spin in the same circle as everyone present has a different notion of what the word means, evidenced by debates over whether or not Jesus or Abraham Lincoln were liberal. Liberal, staying relatively close to its denotation without worry of connotation generally means open to, or pursuant of, change. But in specific contexts it certainly means a variety of much more specific things. Are you liberal on the subject of abortion? No one could mistake the meaning of that question. (Though a troublemaker might argue that since current laws protect abortion rights liberal might mean the opposite of what is obviously intended.) Are you a liberal Catholic? That might mean are you politically liberal and Catholic, or it might mean do you think the Church is outdated and needs to get with the times. Are you an economic liberal? A social liberal? Does the word just mean democrat? Does it mean progressive? Is it the opposite of conservative?
Excellent points, Beth Cecilia. Until there is agreement on the definition of the term, “liberal,” which seems to be used primarily in the accusatory by radio talk show pseudo-sophists and their sycophantic clones- no meaningful discussion can occur. The constant repetition of party-line short sentence sound bites by some of these folks reminds me of nothing so much as Cato’s constant refrain: “Carhago delenda est.”

They seem to believe that, by repeating a catch phrase often enough, it somehow acquires the force of truth for all people.
 
Excellent points, Beth Cecilia. Until there is agreement on the definition of the term, “liberal,” which seems to be used primarily in the accusatory by radio talk show pseudo-sophists and their sycophantic clones- no meaningful discussion can occur. The constant repetition of party-line short sentence sound bites by some of these folks reminds me of nothing so much as Cato’s constant refrain: “Carhago delenda est.”

They seem to believe that, by repeating a catch phrase often enough, it somehow acquires the force of truth for all people.
Oops, sticky keyboard typo, left out the “t” in “Carthago.” It shoud read, “Carthago delenda est.”
 
Hm. Well, that is an interesting and very confining definition of liberal. It has the benefit of being simple, though. At least with this definition, we all know whether or not we are liberals. Using that definition, we can also answer the OP- which from the beginning I have thought impossible. Hooray for simple definitions!

Unfortunately, I completely disagree with the definition. Since on the majority of current political issues, I am pretty predictably liberal, I generally consider myself politically liberal but also pro-life. I am not going to jump into a million different specific issues here, but my political beliefs are informed by my Catholic faith, and generally specifically by the USCCB. There is a lot of room for political disagreement in the Church.

The conversation will continue to spin in the same circle as everyone present has a different notion of what the word means, evidenced by debates over whether or not Jesus or Abraham Lincoln were liberal. Liberal, staying relatively close to its denotation without worry of connotation generally means open to, or pursuant of, change. But in specific contexts it certainly means a variety of much more specific things. Are you liberal on the subject of abortion? No one could mistake the meaning of that question. (Though a troublemaker might argue that since current laws protect abortion rights liberal might mean the opposite of what is obviously intended.) Are you a liberal Catholic? That might mean are you politically liberal and Catholic, or it might mean do you think the Church is outdated and needs to get with the times. Are you an economic liberal? A social liberal? Does the word just mean democrat? Does it mean progressive? Is it the opposite of conservative?
This really is an excellent post. And it also points out that without a definition of liberal that everyone agrees on, the question cannot be answered.

Such is the hard part.
 
So pro-abortion Canidiates are all opposed to divorce and live exemplary lives? I will have to admit this is one of the more bizarre rationales I have seen for supportingt the slaughter of the innocents.
Seriously? I never said that pro-abortion candidates are opposed to divorce and live exemplary lives. If that is what you got out of my response I fear for your ability to accurately interpret what you read. I was pointing out that sin infects both liberals and conservatives. Voting for the candidate that supposedly passes the “non negotiable” test does not mean you are getting a squeaky clean candidate, yet most anti-liberal posts fail to acknowledge that. You might vote anti-abortion, but inadvertently be voting anti-family and pro-adultery, etc. Acknowledge that and move on.

I am anti-abortion, but decades of this debate have not ended abortion and neither has voting for candidates who do nothing once they get elected. The church has a huge mission to convert souls and I think that is where our attention should be focused.
 
Let’s try the flip side and ask how a Catholic can be a conservative Republican. There is equal opportunity for disgust on just one issue alone…divorce. We’ve already had one divorced and remarried President Reagan flaunting his immoral, adulterous, anti-family lifestyle and in the last election we had another adulter try to get into the White House. I have yet to hear of one Repulican candidate call on Americans to strengthen our families by repealing no-fault divorce, so apparently the high divorce rate is acceptable to them and conservatives want to install them as role models. Somehow these jokers call themselves “pro-family” and the party faithful swallow it hook, line and sinker. I don’t want this type of morality running the country either.
Your point is well taken. However, there are times when we (as Catholics) have to choose “the lesser of two evils.” This can be extremely difficult and troubling given the life issues which continue to percolate in political rhetoric nowadays. One must be very careful in educating one’s self on the political realities of each candidate. In my opinion, the bottom line is how a candidate has demonstrated through his/her support/vote on life issues. Again, this today is a most complex and confusing place to be. Right now, the only party which seems to demonstrate a stronger support of life issues are the conservative Republicans. And, one must be careful even in that camp.
 
Seriously? I never said that pro-abortion candidates are opposed to divorce and live exemplary lives. If that is what you got out of my response I fear for your ability to accurately interpret what you read. I was pointing out that sin infects both liberals and conservatives. Voting for the candidate that supposedly passes the “non negotiable” test does not mean you are getting a squeaky clean candidate, yet most anti-liberal posts fail to acknowledge that. You might vote anti-abortion, but inadvertently be voting anti-family and pro-adultery, etc. Acknowledge that and move on.

I am anti-abortion, but decades of this debate have not ended abortion and neither has voting for candidates who do nothing once they get elected. The church has a huge mission to convert souls and I think that is where our attention should be focused.
. I haven’t heard a single person say that voting for a pro-life person guarantees that they’re going to be perfect. on the other issues or that they’re going to be paragons of virtue, squeaky clean and consistently profamily. what has been said, and seems to be being ignored here, is that opposing abortion is the entry-level qualification for a candidate to even be considered to receive a Catholics vote.

if you honestly believe that pro-life candidates have " done nothing" since the imposition of Roe V Wade you really need to do a little basic research. you might start with examining how many Planned Parenthood clinics have been shut down in Texas in the last few weeks and move on to the number of children saved. When Ronald Reagan first instituted the Mexico City policy. . If you do a little research you will find that the majority of states have combinations of parental consent, informed consent, waiting periods, , etc. implemented exclusively by Republican legislators and governors always at the strident opposition of the Democrats.
 
Excellent points, Beth Cecilia. Until there is agreement on the definition of the term, “liberal,” which seems to be used primarily in the accusatory by radio talk show pseudo-sophists and their sycophantic clones- no meaningful discussion can occur. The constant repetition of party-line short sentence sound bites by some of these folks reminds me of nothing so much as Cato’s constant refrain: “Carhago delenda est.”

They seem to believe that, by repeating a catch phrase often enough, it somehow acquires the force of truth for all people.
I believe that right wing Catholics purposely use the word liberal in order to throw out legitamate teachings of the Catholic Church which includes strong unions for just wages and benefits, social services, universal health care and strong governments that promote peace, solidarity, security, freedom and justice for all. I believe that right wing conservatism is no longer just a political philosephy but a religion that has been exchanged for the Catholic faith. I believe right wing conservatism is the cause of abortion and euthenasia and not the cure. People need to read the social justice teachings of the Churcvh and compare that to right wing conservatism. Then they nust make a choice to serve the Lord or to serve materialism and individualism, which s what Right Wing Conservatism really is.

Pax Christi,

David
 
Seriously? I never said that pro-abortion candidates are opposed to divorce and live exemplary lives. If that is what you got out of my response I fear for your ability to accurately interpret what you read. I was pointing out that sin infects both liberals and conservatives. Voting for the candidate that supposedly passes the “non negotiable” test does not mean you are getting a squeaky clean candidate, yet most anti-liberal posts fail to acknowledge that. You might vote anti-abortion, but inadvertently be voting anti-family and pro-adultery, etc. Acknowledge that and move on.

I am anti-abortion, but decades of this debate have not ended abortion and neither has voting for candidates who do nothing once they get elected. The church has a huge mission to convert souls and I think that is where our attention should be focused.
Thank you for this support Eugenius, It is extremely difficult for some of the posters to acknowledge that their people are just as susceptible to sin as we all are.The word the Church uses for the consequence of Original Sin is Concupiscence. Telling us sin does infect all of us.
Peace, Carlan
 
I believe that right wing Catholics purposely use the word liberal in order to throw out legitamate teachings of the Catholic Church which includes strong unions for just wages and benefits, social services, universal health care and strong governments that promote peace, solidarity, security, freedom and justice for all. I believe that right wing conservatism is no longer just a political philosephy but a religion that has been exchanged for the Catholic faith. I believe right wing conservatism is the cause of abortion and euthenasia and not the cure. People need to read the social justice teachings of the Churcvh and compare that to right wing conservatism. Then they nust make a choice to serve the Lord or to serve materialism and individualism, which s what Right Wing Conservatism really is.

Pax Christi,

David
Can ou tell us what social justice policies of Republicans the Church has condemned?
 
Can ou tell us what social justice policies of Republicans the Church has condemned?
It is a good thing to open up the CCC to refresh the memory from time to time… turn to page 581-589.
“Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church”.
Peace, Carlan:)
 
It is a good thing to open up the CCC to refresh the memory from time to time… turn to page 581-589.
“Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church”.
Peace, Carlan:)
There is nothing the Republican party promotes that is in any way contrary to anything written here Funny you didn’t quote the sections concerning abortion and homosexuality
 
There is nothing the Republican party promotes that is in any way contrary to anything written here Funny you didn’t quote the sections concerning abortion and homosexuality
Oops, sorry , your post mentioned social justice, thought that was your concern there.
We both know each others concern about abortion and disordered sexual behavour and same sex marriage …not funny subjects those either. :(:eek:
Peace, Carlan
 
Thank you for this support Eugenius, It is extremely difficult for some of the posters to acknowledge that their people are just as susceptible to sin as we all are.The word the Church uses for the consequence of Original Sin is Concupiscence. Telling us sin does infect all of us.
Peace, Carlan
I’d be happy, for a start, just to go one day without committing SOME sin or another!
 
I believe that right wing Catholics purposely use the word liberal in order to throw out legitamate teachings of the Catholic Church which includes strong unions for just wages and benefits, social services, universal health care and strong governments that promote peace, solidarity, security, freedom and justice for all. I believe that right wing conservatism is no longer just a political philosephy but a religion that has been exchanged for the Catholic faith. I believe right wing conservatism is the cause of abortion and euthenasia and not the cure. People need to read the social justice teachings of the Churcvh and compare that to right wing conservatism. Then they nust make a choice to serve the Lord or to serve materialism and individualism, which s what Right Wing Conservatism really is.

Pax Christi,

David
Wow, you honestly believe this cartoonish notions. Your moral compass must be totally out of whack to have the audacity to suggest that conservative values lead to abortion and euthanasia, who do you think runs the pregnancy canters that truly help out women and contribute to those centers. My goodness who votes and supports abortions in the last trimester; liberals! The only type of strong government based on liberalism you are going to get is something like Stalinism. I will stop now.
 
The church has a huge mission to convert souls and I think that is where our attention should be focused.
Agreed, starting with the reform of the liberal media, which creates public perception and drags down so many souls. And it’s all so unnecessary. People act as though pop culture liberal media is somehow vital to support life.
 
I believe that right wing Catholics purposely use the word liberal in order to throw out legitamate teachings of the Catholic Church which includes strong unions for just wages and benefits, social services, universal health care and strong governments that promote peace, solidarity, security, freedom and justice for all. I believe that right wing conservatism is no longer just a political philosephy but a religion that has been exchanged for the Catholic faith. I believe right wing conservatism is the cause of abortion and euthenasia and not the cure. People need to read the social justice teachings of the Churcvh and compare that to right wing conservatism. Then they nust make a choice to serve the Lord or to serve materialism and individualism, which s what Right Wing Conservatism really is.

Pax Christi,

David
My friend, you need to take some econ classes. Employment is a free will agreement between employer and employee. If you want to be freer of the need to work hard, then simply buy less stuff. Then you won’t believe you neeed to be paid more. No one is forcing you to be a slave to the materialism that is peddled in the leftist media.

Corporations which “shop” for low prices on wages in China are no different than your wife shopping for low prices on goods at Wal-Mart. One is simply the producer side, the other is the consumer side. To ignore this equality of free markets would be an example of bigotry and ignorance. The socialists hope that people remain ignorant of this basic truth. The Popes are opposed to socialism. Materialism and other ills are peddled in the leftist pop culture media. Free yourself by turning it off.
 
My friend, you need to take some econ classes. Employment is a free will agreement between employer and employee. If you want to be freer of the need to work hard, then simply buy less stuff. Then you won’t believe you neeed to be paid more.
My friend you need to obey the teachings of the Church and not the teachings of right wing conservatism whish IS materialism and individualism, Let us hear the words of the Church:

2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.

… before deciding whether wages are fair, many things have to be considered; but wealthy owners and all masters of labor should be mindful of this - that to exercise pressure upon the indigent and the destitute for the sake of gain, and to gather one’s profit out of the need of another, is condemned by all laws, human and divine. To defraud any one of wages that are his due is a great crime which cries to the avenging anger of Heaven. . Lastly, the rich must religiously refrain from cutting down the workmen’s earnings, whether by force, by fraud, or by usurious dealing; and with all the greater reason because the laboring man is, as a rule, weak and unprotected, and because his slender means should in proportion to their scantiness be accounted sacred. Were these precepts carefully obeyed and followed out, would they not be sufficient of themselves to keep under all strife and all its causes?—Rerum Novarum Pope Leo XIII

… A number of human rights also concern human welfare and are of a specifically economic nature. First among these are the rights to life, food, clothing, shelter, rest, medical care, and basic education. These are indispensable to the protection of human dignity. In order to ensure these necessities, all persons have a right to earn a living, which for most people in our economy is through remunerative employment. All persons also have a right to security in the event of sickness, unemployment, and old age. Participation in the life of the community calls for the protection of this same right to employment, as well as the right to healthful working conditions, to wages, and other benefits sufficient to provide individuals and their families with a standard of living in keeping with human dignity, and to the possibility of property ownership.(39) These fundamental personal rights—civil and political as well as social and economic—state the minimum conditions for social institutions that respect human dignity, social solidarity, and justice. They are all essential to human dignity and to the integral development of both individuals and society, and are thus moral issues.(40) Any denial of these rights harms persons and wounds the human community. Their serious and sustained denial violates individuals and destroys solidarity among persons

—The Dignity of Workers, Pope John Paul II

The economy must serve people, not the other way around. Work is more than a way to make a living; it is a form of continuing participation in God’s creation. Employers contribute to the common good through the services or products they provide and by creating jobs that uphold the dignity and rights of workers—to productive work, to decent and just wages, to adequate benefits and security in their old age, to the choice of whether to organize and join unions, to the opportunity for legal status for immigrant workers, to private property, and to economic initiative. Workers also have responsibilities—to provide a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay, to treat employers and co-workers with respect, and to carry out their work in ways that contribute to the common good. Workers, employers, and unions should not only advance their own interests, but also work together to advance economic justice and the well-being of all
.–Faithful Citizenship USCCB.
No one is forcing you to be a slave to the materialism that is peddled in the leftist media.

Corporations which “shop” for low prices on wages in China are no different than your wife shopping for low prices on goods at Wal-Mart. One is simply the producer side, the other is the consumer side. To ignore this equality of free markets would be an example of bigotry and ignorance. The socialists hope that people remain ignorant of this basic truth. The Popes are opposed to socialism. Materialism and other ills are peddled in the leftist pop culture media. Free yourself by turning it off.
Why do you exchange the truth of God for a lie? First it is not the left that is materialistic it is the right. If left wing politics is associated with Marxism then you need to know the entire philosephy behind Marxism was anti materialism, anti capitalism and a labor based market over a free market. Of course I reject marxism because it is the polar opposite of extreme Capitalism, both are totalitarianism and both violate human dignity. So what you are asking me to turn off and are calling “left wing” is Catholic doctrine. So why do you exchange the truth of God for a lie? You cannot serve both God and wealth. It is not materialism to ask for a just and living wage so that one can properly support his family. Do you realize you have fallen into apostacy?

To Him Be the Glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus,

David
 
My friend you need to obey the teachings of the Church and not the teachings of right wing conservatism whish IS materialism and individualism, Let us hear the words of the Church:

2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good."222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.
… before deciding whether wages are fair, many things have to be considered; but wealthy owners and all masters of labor should be mindful of this - that to exercise pressure upon the indigent and the destitute for the sake of gain, and to gather one’s profit out of the need of another, is condemned by all laws, human and divine. To defraud any one of wages that are his due is a great crime which cries to the avenging anger of Heaven. . Lastly, the rich must religiously refrain from cutting down the workmen’s earnings, whether by force, by fraud, or by usurious dealing; and with all the greater reason because the laboring man is, as a rule, weak and unprotected, and because his slender means should in proportion to their scantiness be accounted sacred. Were these precepts carefully obeyed and followed out, would they not be sufficient of themselves to keep under all strife and all its causes?—Rerum Novarum Pope Leo XIII

… A number of human rights also concern human welfare and are of a specifically economic nature. First among these are the rights to life, food, clothing, shelter, rest, medical care, and basic education. These are indispensable to the protection of human dignity. In order to ensure these necessities, all persons have a right to earn a living, which for most people in our economy is through remunerative employment. All persons also have a right to security in the event of sickness, unemployment, and old age. Participation in the life of the community calls for the protection of this same right to employment, as well as the right to healthful working conditions, to wages, and other benefits sufficient to provide individuals and their families with a standard of living in keeping with human dignity, and to the possibility of property ownership.(39) These fundamental personal rights—civil and political as well as social and economic—state the minimum conditions for social institutions that respect human dignity, social solidarity, and justice. They are all essential to human dignity and to the integral development of both individuals and society, and are thus moral issues.(40) Any denial of these rights harms persons and wounds the human community. Their serious and sustained denial violates individuals and destroys solidarity among persons

—The Dignity of Workers, Pope John Paul II

The economy must serve people, not the other way around. Work is more than a way to make a living; it is a form of continuing participation in God’s creation. Employers contribute to the common good through the services or products they provide and by creating jobs that uphold the dignity and rights of workers—to productive work, to decent and just wages, to adequate benefits and security in their old age, to the choice of whether to organize and join unions, to the opportunity for legal status for immigrant workers, to private property, and to economic initiative. Workers also have responsibilities—to provide a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay, to treat employers and co-workers with respect, and to carry out their work in ways that contribute to the common good. Workers, employers, and unions should not only advance their own interests, but also work together to advance economic justice and the well-being of all
.–Faithful Citizenship USCCB.

Why do you exchange the truth of God for a lie? First it is not the left that is materialistic it is the right. If left wing politics is associated with Marxism then you need to know the entire philosephy behind Marxism was anti materialism, anti capitalism and a labor based market over a free market. Of course I reject marxism because it is the polar opposite of extreme Capitalism, both are totalitarianism and both violate human dignity. So what you are asking me to turn off and are calling “left wing” is Catholic doctrine. So why do you exchange the truth of God for a lie? You cannot serve both God and wealth. It is not materialism to ask for a just and living wage so that one can properly support his family. Do you realize you have fallen into apostacy?

To Him Be the Glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus,

David
Is the part in red your commentary or is it part of the CCC?

“Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family…” Who and what determines “dignified?” A high speed internet or a big screen for entertainment? A drug allowance? Air-brushed nails?Good luck with that. Responsibility goes both ways.

“and to the possibility of property ownership.” - like those who simply stopped paying their mortgages and stuck me with the bill? Bigoted minds refuse to see both sides.

This frame of reference is for mere survival. Rich people happen because they provide society with what society wants to buy. That’s why pro athletes and entertainers make more than teachers. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
 
Agreed, starting with the reform of the liberal media, which creates public perception and drags down so many souls. And it’s all so unnecessary. People act as though pop culture liberal media is somehow vital to support life.
Allow me to point out that Fr John Corapi has fallen from grace being seduced not by Liberalism, but by right wing conservatism. He has broke his vows of poverty and lives a lavish lifetyle of materialism, he has gone back to drug abuse and has had an illicit affair with a prostitute that has been on going for a few years. His inner circle of his Church staff knew this and he coerced them into a legal binding contract paying them each 100,000 dollars for their silence. One woman out of conscience breached the contract and reported him to his religious order which launched an investigation. The tribunal found him guilty of breaking his vows of poverty and celebacy and has found him unfit to serve as a priest until such a time as he reprents. Fr Corapi in response launched a lawsuit against the woman who reported him for breach of contract. His Bishop ordered him to drop the law suit and return to his religious order surrendering his accumulated wealth. Fr Corapi has refused to obey his Bishop. He is now in mortal sin and the Bishop is proceding with defrocking him and excommunicating him. Fr Corapi is choosing mommon (worldly wealth) over following Christ

Father John Corapi is just another victem of right wing conservatism, an evil spirit that seduces and ruins souls. And now the soul of a once great Catholic Priest! May God exercise this demon from the Church and bind it in chains and cast it into the depths of Hell for all eternity.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/fr.-corapis-order-finds-him-guilty/

In Christ,
David
 
Allow me to point out that Fr John Corapi has fallen from grace being seduced not by Liberalism, but by right wing conservatism. He has broke his vows of poverty and lives a lavish lifetyle of materialism
There are plenty of liberal democrats who live in a lavish lifestyle of materialism, too. Most actors and actresses in Hollywood, the Kennedy family, the Kerry family, and so forth… Living that lavish lifestyle is by no means a conservative trait.

I honestly don’t think his breaking his vow of poverty was due to a political thought in his mind.
 
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