Can you be catholic and a pacifist ?

[triumphguy]

And likewise pacifism does not equal courage. I can think of nothing explicit in Catholic teaching that says a Catholic cannot be a pacifist. But it seems to me to go against the Catholic mindset. I cannot put my finger on it, but absolute pacifism does not seem very Catholic to me.
I think of the 1000 year war between Islam and Christendom, which was very much a war waged on Christendom with the goal of annihilating Christianity from the face of the earth. Absolute pacifism would have said “let them succeed”.

Martyrdom = courage though, doesn’t it?

Well during one of the Crusades St. Francis went unarmed into the Saracens camp and was met by sultan Melek-el-Kamel.

I’m not saying every Catholic should be a pacifist, but you can be Catholic and a pacifist.

Violence can win wars, but non-violence can win hearts.

The SAS discovered that and were the first modern force to employ the “hearts and minds” tactic.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Yes, you can be a Catholic and a pacifist. I have read that priests are forbidden to use violence…

Also, in the YouCat of the Catholic Church it is stated that the Church understands if an individual feels unable to take up violent measures - however, as a Catholic the individual is then expected to help through other means such as prayers and perhaps through other non violent ways (such as being a medic in the case of a war).

Hope this helps!
Clem

 

[yukonbrad]

Of course you can be a Catholic and a pacifist - Jesus was perhaps the greates pacifist of all time. A more modern example would be the priest who walked into a gay rights protest in Chicago (check out Utube) and began to pray the Rosary despite the virolent attacks he was subjected to. Question I have is why would you think the two are incompatible to begin with?

 

[archangel04]

Hello just wondering about this , the above question and also apply to war etc .
Thanks chuck

You can choose to be pacifist if you like, that’s your choice just don’t force others to follow your way. I do wonder though, if you got mugged and allowed for the mugger to kill you because you do not want to harm him wouldn’t that mean you don’t really care for your life? I am just asking because I am not a pacifist, even if I wanted to my job does not allow for it.

 

[archangel04]

Other comments to the contrary, and without actually breaking out my CCC to look it up, I don’t think there’s anything there that requires Catholics to oppose evil with violence. If you want to be a pacifist, help yourself. Just bear in mind 1) that (at least in the U.S.), the freedom to be a pacifist was won and is maintained by non-pacifists, and 2) that there are people who believe that “pacifist” is another word for “prey.”

Exactly!

 

[archangel04]

Jesus don’t use violence to defend himself, and he could have brought ten legions of angels to do so.

Ditto the martyrs.

Pacifism is probably the most heroic option, though Catholics are allowed to use violence a the CCC says.

Pacifism does not equal cowardice.

On the other hand using violence does not necessarily equal courage.

Jesus was the son of God, and he had a sole mission. His death and resurrection would bring about a new age, an age of salvation. Me standing by and watching my little sister get raped or killed because I don’t want to harm the man committing the evil only allows that evil and suffering to continue.

BTW at the second coming Jesus won’t be coming back as a “pacifist”

 

[archangel04]

You can give peace a chance…

…I’ll cover you if it doesn’t work out! :thumbsup:

Haha oh man I almost fell laughing so hard lol

 

[archangel04]

One thing I remember an old time officer telling me, “you have your sheep, which are most folks, and most are good, then you have your wolves who all they care about is themselves and wish to harm the sheep. Then you have your sheep-dog, who the sheep sometimes dislike, but always there to protect them against the wolves even to the death, which one are you?”

 

[vera_dicere]

Jesus don’t use violence to defend himself, and he could have brought ten legions of angels to do so.

Ditto the martyrs.

Pacifism is probably the most heroic option, though Catholics are allowed to use violence a the CCC says.

Pacifism does not equal cowardice.

On the other hand using violence does not necessarily equal courage.

Yeah, but he did beat the living lamb chops out of a group of money lenders dealing in the temple…

 

[JReducation]

No because a Catholic must oppose grave evil attacking others even if that means using violence to protect people from attackers CCC 2307-2317

However I must say that those occasions are rare and indeed more often it is tool used to oppress to conquer and to exploit and behind the facade of so called noble wars and crusades is greed and therefore evil.

So to answer the OP I must say whatever the bravery the dignity the virtues of the armed forces of today and the past they rarely keep us safe and rarely are used for the mission the Church says they must fight. They kill innocents rather than protect they are like the Duke of Wellington said ours scum of is the earth

It doesn’t say that at all. In fact, it says that you can be a pacifist.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

If you read the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, written by St. Francis, it prohibits Secular Franciscans from bearing arms for any nation, including their own. It was approved by a Bull of Pope Honorious III in 1221.

Like this, there are many other documents in the Church, both for the universal Church and for specific groups that encourage pacifism.

The Church takes very seriously the idea of using force to fight evil. It sees that at the last line of defense and only if the damage that the enemy will do to you meets certain criteria spelled out in those paragraphs that you cited.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Just adding to my previous post…

It is important that we first of all define a “pacifist”. There are a couple of definitions which vary in meaning:

**(1) Somebody morally opposed to any type of violence.

(2) Somebody who refuses to join the armed forces no matter what amount of pressure is put on them.

Also, this is from dictionary.reference.com:

PACIFIST
1.
a person who believes in pacifism or is opposed to war or to violence of any kind.
2.
a person whose personal belief in pacifism causes him or her to refuse being drafted into military service. Compare conscientious objector.**

So, it really depends on what the question is.

If we’re talking about a pacifist as defined in the online-dictionary when talking about opposition to violence then the Catholic answer is: No, you may not believe in pacifism and still be in agreement with the Church’s teachings. The reason for this is that the Catechism states that the Church cannot deny a person, group, or nation the right to self defence.
And… self defence must often involve violence in order to save those who are just and innocent.

However, when it comes to joining the armed forces the Church respects a person’s right to refuse to join due to matters of conscience.

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[archangel04]

It doesn’t say that at all. In fact, it says that you can be a pacifist.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

If you read the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, written by St. Francis, it prohibits Secular Franciscans from bearing arms for any nation, including their own. It was approved by a Bull of Pope Honorious III in 1221.

Like this, there are many other documents in the Church, both for the universal Church and for specific groups that encourage pacifism.

The Church takes very seriously the idea of using force to fight evil. It sees that at the last line of defense and only if the damage that the enemy will do to you meets certain criteria spelled out in those paragraphs that you cited.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Nothing against Franciscans, but it’s a good thing I am not one or I’d be out of a job
Br. are there any other orders or societies which prohibit their member including clergy from ever carrying arms?

 

[JReducation]

Nothing against Franciscans, but it’s a good thing I am not one or I’d be out of a job
Br. are there any other orders or societies which prohibit their member including clergy from ever carrying arms?

All do to some degree or another. The most relaxed are the Benedictines. St. Benedict actually tells the monks to sleep with their swords and daggers close by.

The strictest of the founders were, in historical order, St. John de Matha, St. Francis of Assisi, and Bl. Mother Teresa.

St. Francis is probably the most relaxed of the three. He does allow for the friars to serve as chaplains in the military, provided that they do not take sides. They must serve the enemy as well. Several Friar Priests lost their lives in wars, especially WW II, crossing enemy lines to hear confessions and anoint the wounded on the other side. Some were shot by our side. In the confusion with everyone shooting and shouting, they didn’t recognize the priest coming back into the American dugout and shot him thinking he was a German or a Japanese soldier. Some have been dismissed from the service for refusing to follow regulations that are contrary to the mind of the Church. The Church does not dispense them from their obligation and duty to Church first, mankind second and country third.

There may be other communities out there. We do not bear arms for any country or against anyone. Our understanding of the Pledge of Allegiance is for the moral good of the country. That moral good is determined by the mind of the Church. In any country that we find ourselves, we freely pledge allegiance, because the moral good of every country is of concern to us.

The idea of pledging allegiance to a nation, even when the nation stands in opposition to Church authority is a lack of allegiance to the Church. This has nothing to do with infallibility, dogma or morals. It has to do with the right to govern that comes with the ordination of a bishop. A bishop is the highest governing authority over a Catholic in all matters. This dates back to the time of the Apostles. We don’t have to agree with the bishop, but we owe him allegiance in all things but sin.

The exercise of pacifism when the action of the state is contrary to the moral law is not only a right, but a duty of every Catholic. The CCC is very specific in explaining Just War, much more so than previous documents. It must be a situation where the harm done by the enemy is real, is at your door, irreparable and all other means of avoiding to have to defend yourself have been exhausted. The same rule applies to self-defense in the face of a criminal.

St. John de Matha, St. Francis and Bl. Mother Teresa commanded total disarmament. Even if the enemy is at your door, you may never take up a weapon under penalty of very grave sin. It has to be understood here that it’s not the founder who puts us under penalty of grave sin. The founder puts us under obedience. At the time that the Church approves the statutes, she morally binds the members. Disobeying your superior and the Particular Law of your institute is grave matter.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[jimmy]

I oppose pacifism because it seems to be a copout, and most pacifists are simply cowards. But there are some honest pacifists who actually are brave. That said, a person is permitted to be a pacifist, but is it really wise? If your family is attacked, is it better to let them die than to do violence? I personally would not die or allow my family to die because I refused to use violence. I would use whatever force necessary to eliminate my attacker.

 

[Mr_Kooper_513]

My understanding is that a person may essentially take a “vow” of non-violence but that he can not require others to do so.

 

[JReducation]

My understanding is that a person may essentially take a “vow” of non-violence but that he can not require others to do so.

If you’re one of the six major Law-Givers all bets are off.

1. Benedict
2. Basil
3. Augustine
4. John de Matha
5. Albert
6. Francis of Assisi

They stated their requirements in their respective rules and the Church sealed them with papal bulls so that no one can touch those rules, except another pope. Not even superior general can tamper with the rule, nor can the general chapter.

Since their rules are untouchable and all who join the community enter freely, then all who enter are bound to pacifism to the degree required by the founder.

As St.Benedict explained in his 12 steps. obedience is the most noble expression of love. No one can force you to enter a religious family. If you enter, you know that you must obey, even what bothers your conscience. In the major religious orders, conscience does not have primacy over the Rule and Constitutions. Any conscience that struggles with the Rule and Constitutions, must be brought into alignment with these until such time as the Church says otherwise. Thus, as St. Benedict says, obedience is the highest expression of love, because it requires that one crucify oneself.

If pacifism is what the Rule commands, then pacifism it is. What I feel about it is irrelevant, because no one forced me to enter and when the superior approved me for vows, it was Christ himself doing the speaking. Therefore, my fate is sealed. This is what I must do no matter how great the sacrifice.

Hence the expression, “Many are called, but few are chosen,” or as Bl. John Paul II wrote in Vita Consecrata, the call to religious orders, secular orders, societies of consecrated life, consecrated virginity, monastic life and religious congregations is only for a select few. God does not give everyone the grace to live this way of life, because it’s a life against human nature.

For many people, this idea of accepting pain or even death rather than fight or even feel anger is impossible. They don’t have the grace that this requires. These are people like St. Edith Stein, OCD; St. Maximilian Kolbe, OFM Conv; St. Miguel Pro, SJ.; and Bl. John Paul II.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[AdamP88]

Can you be catholic and a pacifist ?

No. A pacifist is a person who holds the belief that violence is unjustifiable. According to Catholic teaching violence can sometimes (rarely) be justified.

 

[JReducation]

I oppose pacifism because it seems to be a copout, and most pacifists are simply cowards. But there are some honest pacifists who actually are brave. That said, a person is permitted to be a pacifist, but is it really wise? If your family is attacked, is it better to let them die than to do violence? I personally would not die or allow my family to die because I refused to use violence. I would use whatever force necessary to eliminate my attacker.

Let me ask you a simple question. What do you think of Bl. Teresa of Calcutta?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[archangel04]

All do to some degree or another. The most relaxed are the Benedictines. St. Benedict actually tells the monks to sleep with their swords and daggers close by.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Really? That’s funny because the one order I can identify myself are the Benedictines

Thank you Br. for the helpful info!

 

[archangel04]

For many people, this idea of accepting pain or even death rather than fight or even feel anger is impossible. They don’t have the grace that this requires. These are people like St. Edith Stein, OCD; St. Maximilian Kolbe, OFM Conv; St. Miguel Pro, SJ.; and Bl. John Paul II.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

But at the same time Br. not everyone can accept the responsibility of having to take a life in order to protect others. In a way being in the military or in law enforcement is a calling that only a few can do, although there are many in there that really don’t belong. I guess you can say it’s grace from God to be able to deal with stressful situations like that. I admire all those who are willing to stand down, but for me it’s something I could never do, perhaps if it’s dying for my faith I would be willing, but only God could give a grace like that