Can you convert to the Catholic faith and still believe in creationism?

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As hominids evolved into self-consciousness, they became morally and spiritually aware. Moral awareness involves the understanding that we are all subject to sin by virtue of our “fallen” nature.
And since you believe that there were more than just Adam and Eve (“hominids” - as in multiple), you must be proposing that all these hominids of whom we are descended simultaneously evolved moral and spiritual awareness. Else along the way to the present, you end up with “some who have it” and “some who don’t”. And today we would have humans, some of whom have it and some that don’t.

This isn’t something you can sell in the Church. No matter your personal feelings about it.

“You think you are really somebody: your studies – your research, your publications…Precisely because of all this, you – more than others --need a director for your soul.” - St. Josemaria Escriva, The Way, #63.
 
And since you believe that there were more than just Adam and Eve (“hominids” - as in multiple), you must be proposing that all these hominids of whom we are descended simultaneously evolved moral and spiritual awareness. .
Precisely. Just like their ancestors had simultaneously evolved five digits on each hand, or an upright posture, or an omnivorous diet.
 
Thus, evolution into moral consciousness entails evolution into the recognition of sin and the possibility of not sinning, and the recognition that we are all born into this condition, that it is original to our very nature in an incomplete, unfinished universe.StAnastasia
As an interesting addendum, I just ran across this article on Yahoo.com about “fictive thinking” among monkeys, or thinking about “what might have been.” This is an important precursor to moral thinking, because you can’t be morally conscious if you can’t consider other possible outcomes. news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090514/sc_livescience/monkeysponderwhatcouldhavebeen
 
Creation is by nature incomplete, and sin is related to incompleteness, need, desire, jealousy. It took millions of years from the Big Bang until the first generation of stars, and tens to hundreds of millions of years to the gravitational collection of galaxies. It took yet further billions of years until the first generation of stars–which had generated the heavier elements in their cores through the process of nucleosynthesis-- exploded these element into the interstellar medium, where they collected gravitationally into accretion discs that become second generation stars with rocky, potentially life-bearing planets.

On planets with suitable chemical, thermal, geological, and meteorological conditions, life was created. When life evolves under conditions of finite resources (as it must on any finite planet), there will always be predation and competition for resources and for ecological niches. Prior to the evolution of consciousness, under “premoral” conditions, predation and competition are not moral issues; a lion is not sinning by tearing apart a gazelle. However, when Homo sapiens evolved consciousness, they became aware of the possibility of acting otherwise. Actions which among non-self-conscious animals are morally neutral–such as killing, overconsumption of resources, deception–these become moral issues. An early human who kills or excludes a tribe member is committing sin, unlike a baboon who kills or exiles a competing male. A human who eats far more than his share of food in a lean year is committing the sin of greed against his starving tribes people. A human who in a drought year lies about where a water source is commits sin, unlike a bird who engages in deception to ensure the survival of its young.

Thus, evolution into moral consciousness entails evolution into the recognition of sin and the possibility of not sinning, and the recognition that we are all born into this condition, that it is original to our very nature in an incomplete, unfinished universe.

StAnastasia
Some very good thoughts here, and well expressed. I don’t know if I would agree with all of it. I don’t like framing the issue as one of incompleteness, because, to me, that word connotes a mistake or failing. I don’t think that is necessarily how you mean to use it, its just a flavor it imparts to me. Unfinished sits better.

I agree, however, that this is an example of the lines of inquiry that theologians are following. Some have suggested that even if we accept polygenism of humans, we can still rescue monogenism of sin. For example, they posit that even if there were a group of hominids that were progressing toward humanity, one person got there first and sinned first. Or perhaps the leader of the first group was the “original sinner.”

Others take a different path and suggest that the concept of original sin does not require a a unique “origial sinner.” Above I posted a quote from Card. Ratzinger’s book (which I mislabled “In the Begging”). He proposes that Original Sin is a description of (or a reflection of) our inability to properly form relationships with God and one another. Some suggest that original sin should be thought of the way you do, or Ratzinger does, and that those ways of expressing original sin allow for polygenesis of sin.

(Note - I am not suggesting that Pope Benedict believes in the polygenesis of sin. He might, but he hasn’t said one way or the other that I am aware of. I do think his thoughts on original sin could fit into a polygenetic theory.)

The Church continues to think about and explore these topics. Jesus told us that we were not ready to understand everything, and that more would be revealed to us over time. That process continues, and this is a fine example of it.
 
Some very good thoughts here, and well expressed. I don’t know if I would agree with all of it. I don’t like framing the issue as one of incompleteness, because, to me, that word connotes a mistake or failing. I don’t think that is necessarily how you mean to use it, its just a flavor it imparts to me. Unfinished sits better.
TMC, thank you for your thoughtful critique. I agree that “unfinished” is a better choice of wording. This is the word John Haught uses in his Deeper than Darwin. In fact, in 2005 when I flew to Philadelphia to speak at the Teilhard Society conference in advance of the AAR, my computer had crashed before I completed my lecture. When Jack Haught caught sight of me in the student computer lab, reconstructing my talk from notes, he asked what I was doing. I explained that my talk was not yet finished, and he laughed and said, “The universe is not yet finished!”

However, even “unfinished” may not sit well with everyone. I prefer to think in terms of the eventual – even the eschatological – “fulfillment” or completion of Creation. Or one could speak of the “perfection” of the universe, from the Latin “per-ficere” (facere) – to do something thoroughly. That’s why theology is always an hermeneutical task: the ideal meaning eludes us; language evolves and concepts evolve, and we gradually work ourselves closer to a a way of expressing eternal truth in our own idiom that makes theological sense.

Thanks again, TMC!
StAnastasia
 
I agree, however, that this is an example of the lines of inquiry that theologians are following. Some have suggested that even if we accept polygenism of humans, we can still rescue monogenism of sin. For example, they posit that even if there were a group of hominids that were progressing toward humanity, one person got there first and sinned first. Or perhaps the leader of the first group was the “original sinner.”
This doesn’t look like a “rescue” of monogenism of sin to me…

Your hypothesis above needs to assume that ALL the group of hominids (whom I presume you mean to be our ancestors) simultaneously “got there”, rather than one getting there first. Otherwise there is some period of time in which some are fully human and some are not. And today we would have a mixture of the fully human, and not fully human, and no discernible way to distinguish between the two. Not a good idea.

Or… you need to assume that at some point the unenlightened ones all died off, leaving only a single pair from whom we are all descended and therefore we now all have humanity, and original sin. But that takes us right back to the “mythical” Adam and Eve. The radical evolutionists will disagree with you on that one.

Or perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying?
 
Thus, evolution into moral consciousness entails evolution into the recognition of sin and the possibility of not sinning, and the recognition that we are all born into this condition, that it is original to our very nature in an incomplete, unfinished universe.

StAnastasia
I believe that there is great truth to Genesis 3, and I don’t think we have plumbed the depths of that truth yet. I think it speaks to the broken nature of the human condition, specfically the broken way we use morality to order our lives and deal with each other.

(To be clear - I believe that this story is entirely mythic. I also believe that the error of modern thought is not that science is used to reject the story as false. The error modern readers make is to suppose that the only meaningful truth is factual truth - that the story must be literally historical or it is false. The writers of Genesis knew of more than one kind of truth; we have lost some of that.)

To get back on my point, as I think about your post and think about Genesis 3, I am struck by a couple of things that I don’t fully understand. Certainly Genesis 3 is pretty clear that eating the fruit opened the first couple’s eyes to shame. But God is portrayed in Genesis 3 as not wanting mankind’s eyes opened to morality. We often think of God as wanting us to spend a lot of time and energy thinking about what is moral and what is not. Genesis 3 seems to be saying that it would be better if we had no idea what was good and what was evil.

Also, the shameful feelings that Adam and Eve experience are not from the disobedience, but from their nakedness. They have previously been naked before God, and God has not found any fault with that. Now they assume there is something wrong with being naked. They also assume God will be angry and so they hide themselves from Him, even though their nakedness has not made Him angry before. They then engage in the original excuse making, as both of them blame their acts on others (Adam on Eve, Eve on the Serpent).

Why didn’t God want mankind to know good and evil? Why did Adam and Eve feel such shame at simple nakedness, but not of disobeying God? What is the significance of the excuse making?

Maybe God did not want mankind to develop morality because our perception of morality is inaccurate, and therefore harmful. We, like Adam and Eve, often base our concept of
shame on the assumption that others will act badly. Like Adam and Eve we cover ourselves, and suppose that not doing so is wrong (why? to avoid lust? to conceal weakness?). They hide from God, like we hide our true ourselves, to avoid reproach and anger. But their reaction seems objectively wrong. They experience right and wrong, but don’t feel bad about the right things. (Although I have not thought the connection through, I connect this in my mind with Ecclesiastes and Job, as both contain strong warnings that we cannot truly perceive what is right and proper.)

Like the first sinners, we also blame our wrongdoing on the wrongdoing of others. We feel like we could be good if only those around us would allow us to be. By doing this, like Adam, we blame our sins on God. “The man replied, ‘The woman whom you put here with me–she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.’” Geneis 3:12.

I don’t have any real answers here, just thinking out loud. But I think that thinking of original sin as a relational flaw, like Ratzinger, or as an unfinished state that prevents us from focusing outward, as you suggest, is consistent with Genesis. (Very Maslowian, BTW.) I don’t think that Genesis 3 is about being unable to live by a certain moral code. Its more about the inability to look past man-created codes to the Truth that God wants us to live in harmony and love with one another.

When Genesis 3 is viewed this way, Christ’s work in healing Creation makes sense. He straightens what was crooked and supplies what was missing, cf Ecclesiates 1:15, by telling us to look past the blame and shame centered morality code and embrace harmony and love.
 
Also, the shameful feelings that Adam and Eve experience are not from the disobedience, but from their nakedness. They have previously been naked before God, and God has not found any fault with that. Now they assume there is something wrong with being naked.
Prior to original sin, there were 4 “unities” with which God endowed us…
● The unity of God and Mankind.
● The unity of man’s body and soul.
● The unity of man and woman.
● The unity of mankind with creation.

These unities were broken by original sin. The unity of body/soul, and man/woman affect the subject above.

Originally (before sin), Adam & Eve saw each other in the way God intended. Adam originally views Eve with rejoicing, with wonder. They desire each other as God intended us to, and also see each other as God sees each of us.

After the sin, they cover themselves to protect themselves…from each other. God’s original design for their mutual love has been perverted into merely lust. The total self giving that love requires has been changed into a fear of being used - treated as a sexual object rather than being seen as a total person. Trust is gone.

The above is from Theology of the Body - by JP2 (or at least it is the best I can explain this element of TOTB in 2 paragraphs.) It doesn’t seem to reconcile with your own theories, but it is based on the teachings of a pope, and the saints who went before him. If this explanation doesn’t “tickle your ear”, then I’m sure that a pseudo-saint (or maybe more than one) will appear and tell you something that appeals to you better. For me, I’m sticking with the Church.

Theology of the Body for Beginners - by C. West is a good book. “A Theology of the Body” by JP2 is a much more difficult read, but does cover this in detail.

🙂
 
Precisely. Just like their ancestors had simultaneously evolved five digits on each hand, or an upright posture, or an omnivorous diet.
So in essence, the entire Catholic concept of original sin, disobedience to God and the passing of that sin to all of mankind us is totally undermined in your scenario. Since there was no direct disobedience to God, this sin does not exist. Going further then, the entire idea of Catholic Baptism, which cleanses this original sin from our souls is unnecessary and invalid.

Is that what you are saying?
 
It’s permissible to believe that the ‘a day is as a thousand years’ idea means ‘a day for the Lord is a very long time’ and not take that literally.

But Genesis must normatively be taken as literal, because it is expressed as such. And many parts of it have been explicitly declared not to be altered in their understanding, and that it is heresy to do so.

I.E. The literal existence of Adam and Eve, and all mankind’s descent from these two people. Etc.

Response of the Biblical Commission:

2121 Question I: Whether the various exegetical systems which have been proposed to exclude the literal historical sense of the three first chapters of the Book of Genesis, and have been defended by the pretense of science, are sustained by a solid foundation? – Reply: In the negative.

2122 Question II: Whether, when the nature and historical form of the Book of Genesis does not oppose, because of the peculiar connections of the three first chapters with each other and with the following chapters, because of the manifold testimony of the Old and of the New Testaments; because of the almost unanimous opinion of the Holy Fathers, and because of the traditional sense which, transmitted from the Israelite people, the Church always held, it can be taught that the three aforesaid chapters of Genesis do not contain the stories of events which really happened, that is, which correspond with objective reality and historical truth; but are either accounts celebrated in fable drawn from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and adapted by a holy writer to monotheistic doctrine, after expurgating any error of polytheism; or allegories and symbols, devoid of a basis of objective reality, set forth under the guise of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or, finally, legends, historical in part and fictitious in part, composed freely for the instruction and edification of souls? – Reply: In the negative to both parts.

2123 Question 111: Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into question, where it is a matter of facts related in the same chapters, which pertain to the foundations of the Christian religion; for example, among others, the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the oneness of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given to man by God to prove his obedience; the transgression of the divine command through the devil’s persuasion under the guise of a serpent; the casting of our first parents out of that first state of innocence; and also the promise of a future restorer?–Reply: In the negative.

2124 Question IV: Whether in interpreting those passages of these chapters, which the Fathers and Doctors have understood differently, but concerning which they have not taught anything certain and definite, it is permitted, while preserving the judgment of the Church and keeping the analogy of faith, to follow and defend that opinion which everyone has wisely approved? – Reply: In the affirmative.

2125 Question V: Whether all and everything, namely, words and phrases which occur in the aforementioned chapters, are always and necessarily to be accepted in a special sense, so that there may be no deviation from this, even when the expressions themselves manifestly appear to have been taken improperly, or metaphorically or anthropomorphically, and either reason prohibits holding the proper sense, or necessity forces its abandonment? – Reply: In the negative.

2126 Question VI: Whether, presupposing the literal and historical sense, the allegorical and prophetical interpretation of some passages of the same chapters, with the example of the Holy Fathers and the Church herself showing the way, can be wisely and profitably applied? – Reply: In the affirmative.

2127 Question VII: Whether, since in writing the first chapter of Genesis it was not the mind of the sacred author to teach in a scientific manner the detailed constitution of visible things and the complete order of creation, but rather to give to his people a popular notion, according as the common speech of the times went, accommodated to the understanding and capacity of men, the propriety of scientific language is to be investigated exactly and always in the interpretation of these? – Reply: In the negative.

2128 Question VIII: Whether in that designation and distinction of six days, with which the account of the first chapter of Genesis deals, the word (dies) can be assumed either in its proper sense as a natural day, or in the improper sense of a certain space of time; and whether with regard to such a question there can be free disagreement among exegetes? – Reply: In the affirmative.
 
Thank you. I’m not here to start a debate and I’m not here so that I can be convinced that evolution is the right way to go. I don’t even begrudge anyone’s belief in evolution beginning with God. I’m simply trying to find out what the church’s teachings are and how do Catholics feel towards believers in creationism. That’s all. So please just let me know now if there is some sort of hidden expected belief that if you are Catholic then you believe in evolution or most people will just think you are not intelligent because you believe God cable of making the world in 6 days because that’s the kind of the feeling I get from some (and sometimes it seems) many people.
The list that was provided by “buffalo” in post three is the list of things that we as Catholics are required to believe. Don’t worry at this point about the Latin comments in brackets; those are for the use of scholars who want to trace the source of these teachings. 🙂

Catholics work their understanding of the Creation story, whether they believe in Evolution or Creationism, or Intelligent Design, etc., around these required beliefs.

For example, a faithful Catholic who believes that the human species evolved, would say that one human male and one human female were born of non-human parents and then mated to produce the rest of the human race; these two first humans, we call “Adam” and “Eve.”

But belief in polygenesis (the idea that a whole human population evolved simultaneously) is absolutely forbidden; this is considered a heresy.
 
It’s permissible to believe that the ‘a day is as a thousand years’ idea means ‘a day for the Lord is a very long time’ and not take that literally.

But Genesis must normatively be taken as literal, because it is expressed as such. And many parts of it have been explicitly declared not to be altered in their understanding, and that it is heresy to do so.

I.E. The literal existence of Adam and Eve, and all mankind’s descent from these two people. Etc.
Response of the Biblical Commission:

2121 Question I: Whether the various exegetical systems which have been proposed to exclude the literal historical sense of the three first chapters of the Book of Genesis, and have been defended by the pretense of science, are sustained by a solid foundation? – Reply: In the negative.

2122 Question II: Whether, when the nature and historical form of the Book of Genesis does not oppose, because of the peculiar connections of the three first chapters with each other and with the following chapters, because of the manifold testimony of the Old and of the New Testaments; because of the almost unanimous opinion of the Holy Fathers, and because of the traditional sense which, transmitted from the Israelite people, the Church always held, it can be taught that the three aforesaid chapters of Genesis do not contain the stories of events which really happened, that is, which correspond with objective reality and historical truth; but are either accounts celebrated in fable drawn from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and adapted by a holy writer to monotheistic doctrine, after expurgating any error of polytheism; or allegories and symbols, devoid of a basis of objective reality, set forth under the guise of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or, finally, legends, historical in part and fictitious in part, composed freely for the instruction and edification of souls? – Reply: In the negative to both parts.

2123 Question 111: Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into question, where it is a matter of facts related in the same chapters, which pertain to the foundations of the Christian religion; for example, among others, the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the oneness of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given to man by God to prove his obedience; the transgression of the divine command through the devil’s persuasion under the guise of a serpent; the casting of our first parents out of that first state of innocence; and also the promise of a future restorer?–Reply: In the negative.

2124 Question IV: Whether in interpreting those passages of these chapters, which the Fathers and Doctors have understood differently, but concerning which they have not taught anything certain and definite, it is permitted, while preserving the judgment of the Church and keeping the analogy of faith, to follow and defend that opinion which everyone has wisely approved? – Reply: In the affirmative.

2125 Question V: Whether all and everything, namely, words and phrases which occur in the aforementioned chapters, are always and necessarily to be accepted in a special sense, so that there may be no deviation from this, even when the expressions themselves manifestly appear to have been taken improperly, or metaphorically or anthropomorphically, and either reason prohibits holding the proper sense, or necessity forces its abandonment? – Reply: In the negative.

2126 Question VI: Whether, presupposing the literal and historical sense, the allegorical and prophetical interpretation of some passages of the same chapters, with the example of the Holy Fathers and the Church herself showing the way, can be wisely and profitably applied? – Reply: In the affirmative.

2127 Question VII: Whether, since in writing the first chapter of Genesis it was not the mind of the sacred author to teach in a scientific manner the detailed constitution of visible things and the complete order of creation, but rather to give to his people a popular notion, according as the common speech of the times went, accommodated to the understanding and capacity of men, the propriety of scientific language is to be investigated exactly and always in the interpretation of these? – Reply: In the negative.

2128 Question VIII: Whether in that designation and distinction of six days, with which the account of the first chapter of Genesis deals, the word (dies) can be assumed either in its proper sense as a natural day, or in the improper sense of a certain space of time; and whether with regard to such a question there can be free disagreement among exegetes? – Reply: In the affirmative.
Shin, thank you for posting this.
 
(To be clear - I believe that this story is entirely mythic. I also believe that the error of modern thought is not that science is used to reject the story as false. The error modern readers make is to suppose that the only meaningful truth is factual truth - that the story must be literally historical or it is false. The writers of Genesis knew of more than one kind of truth; we have lost some of that.)…I don’t have any real answers here, just thinking out loud. But I think that thinking of original sin as a relational flaw, like Ratzinger, or as an unfinished state that prevents us from focusing outward, as you suggest, is consistent with Genesis. (Very Maslowian, BTW.) …When Genesis 3 is viewed this way, Christ’s work in healing Creation makes sense. He straightens what was crooked and supplies what was missing, cf Ecclesiates 1:15, by telling us to look past the blame and shame centered morality code and embrace harmony and love.
TMC, I too regard the story as mythic, like the Greek story of evil arising out of Pandora’s curiosity and disobedient insistence on opening the box that contained it. Interesting that in both myths it’s the female who instigates or perpetrates the disobedience! I’ll have to check other cosmogonic myths to see if this pattern is repeated.

Jung speaks to one of your points, about God not wanting humans to know the difference between good and evil. He suggests that the Garden of Eden represents the state of dreaming innocence in which a baby dwells. Because a baby knows not the difference between good and evil, it lives in blissful ignorance. No parent wishes disobedience, but no parent wishes its child to remain an innocent baby all its life. Jung notes that disobedience and the assertion of the will, and the subsequent mroal recognition of this, as the universal path to maturity. I know this quite well having two kids, one of whom is a willful, disobedient brilliant teenager on his way to responsible adulthood.

I like your development of Cardinal Ratzinger’s notion of sin as a relational shortfall. From the earliest days of human cognition, there would have been a dawning realization that one could exclude others from their share of the woolly mammoth kill; that one could usurp another’s wife; that one could pointlessly murder a member of a peaceful neighboring tribe. Sin is always relational.

I’m off to the sixth-grade girls’ diocesan basketball championship game; I’ll think more about this at halftime!

StAnastasia
 
I have been reading this thread with interest but I have refrained from posting because I don’t believe that any of us should have our faith questioned or be subjected to the implication of heresy.

By education I am both a historian and an anthropologist. By faith I am a Catholic. Four hundred years ago, the western world was in the throes of the Reformation during that wonderful period known as the Renaissance. It was a matter of “faith” that the cosmos revolved around the Earth and that Jerusalem was the center of Creation.

Along came Copernicus who stated that no, the Earth revolved around the sun. Decades later Galileo came to Copernicus’ defense and was forced to recant his belief that the earth orbits around the sun. Holy Mother Church placed books espousing heliocentrism on the Index of Forbidden Books… Which of us today have not been presented with graphic examples that the Earth does indeed orbit the sun?

We can look at what St. Augustine had to say about Creation and we can look at what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about the proof of the evidence of God

fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.html

Aquinas was presented to me in a senior level history course on the Middle Ages at a secular university. I think to this day that this is the most elegant proof of the existence of God.

One of the brothers who taught me stated that a faith that cannot resist challenge is no faith at all. If I had applied some of the beliefs I have read on this thread in the course of my education, I would no longer be Catholic or Christian. God is “out there” in the universe and He is a lot more complex and wonderful than our fallen nature can comprehend. We are created in the image and likeness of God, right?

The issue here is “creationism”. I state without a doubt that God created the universe and created us. Credo. Since I was created in the image and likeness of God, it means that God gave me a brain to use which I have used. My governer here in Louisiana is a convert from Hinduism and a firm believer in creationism… I reject creationism.

Four hundred years ago, the official posture of HMC was to believe that the cosmos revolved around the Earth and that Jerusalem was the center point of Creation.

I am in awe of God’s Creation. I am thankful that I can see His actions and, hopefully, one day understand them. Chardin was right. Something is indeed afoot in the universe.
 
Four hundred years ago, the official posture of HMC was to believe that the cosmos revolved around the Earth and that Jerusalem was the center point of Creation.
The sun revolving around the Earth is a whole different story than the cosmos revolving around the Earth.

The Earth / Sun both revolve around the center of gravity for the solar system, so those that say the Earth revolves around the Sun are also wrong.

Now expanding outward…Is the Earth and/or Jerusalem specifically the center of the entire cosmos? Science cannot tell us one way or the other.
 
It’s permissible to believe that the ‘a day is as a thousand years’ idea means ‘a day for the Lord is a very long time’ and not take that literally.

But Genesis must normatively be taken as literal, because it is expressed as such. And many parts of it have been explicitly declared not to be altered in their understanding, and that it is heresy to do so.

I.E. The literal existence of Adam and Eve, and all mankind’s descent from these two people. Etc.
Response of the Biblical Commission:

2121 Question I: Whether the various exegetical systems which have been proposed to exclude the literal historical sense of the three first chapters of the Book of Genesis, and have been defended by the pretense of science, are sustained by a solid foundation? – Reply: In the negative.

2122 Question II: Whether, when the nature and historical form of the Book of Genesis does not oppose, because of the peculiar connections of the three first chapters with each other and with the following chapters, because of the manifold testimony of the Old and of the New Testaments; because of the almost unanimous opinion of the Holy Fathers, and because of the traditional sense which, transmitted from the Israelite people, the Church always held, it can be taught that the three aforesaid chapters of Genesis do not contain the stories of events which really happened, that is, which correspond with objective reality and historical truth; but are either accounts celebrated in fable drawn from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and adapted by a holy writer to monotheistic doctrine, after expurgating any error of polytheism; or allegories and symbols, devoid of a basis of objective reality, set forth under the guise of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or, finally, legends, historical in part and fictitious in part, composed freely for the instruction and edification of souls? – Reply: In the negative to both parts.

2123 Question 111: Whether in particular the literal and historical sense can be called into question, where it is a matter of facts related in the same chapters, which pertain to the foundations of the Christian religion; for example, among others, the creation of all things wrought by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the oneness of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given to man by God to prove his obedience; the transgression of the divine command through the devil’s persuasion under the guise of a serpent; the casting of our first parents out of that first state of innocence; and also the promise of a future restorer?–Reply: In the negative.

2124 Question IV: Whether in interpreting those passages of these chapters, which the Fathers and Doctors have understood differently, but concerning which they have not taught anything certain and definite, it is permitted, while preserving the judgment of the Church and keeping the analogy of faith, to follow and defend that opinion which everyone has wisely approved? – Reply: In the affirmative.

…snip…
TMC, I too regard the story as mythic, like the Greek story of evil arising out of Pandora’s curiosity and disobedient insistence on opening the box that contained it.

StAnastasia
I have been reading this thread with interest but I have refrained from posting because I don’t believe that any of us should have our faith questioned or be subjected to the implication of heresy.
If you are actually saying that we should not have our motives questioned, then you might have a point, but…even then there are a lot of posts you haven’t read.

On the issue of heresy, that is a serious charge and we shouldn’t make it lightly.

With regard to faith - of course some of us should have our faith questioned, especially if we make statements which are contrary to Catholic teaching. Are we here on Earth just to come up with our own versions of biblical events? Our own interpretation of the bible? Our own definition of good and evil? The Protestants are each and every one their own pope. We don’t need that sort of thing.

Why do we need a church, if not to teach us our faith? And tell us when we’re wrong?
 
If you do not believe in the dogmas of the Church because you do not know them, if you instead believe something contrary to them, you are a material heretic. If you do not believe in the dogmas of the Church after you have been instructed in them, you are a formal heretic.

This offends God greatly.

I am not saying this out of any desire for negativity, but because these is serious matter. **It is essential to believe the dogmas of the Church, as proposed by the Church, to be a Catholic. ** This is serious. People need to understand how important these truths are to God and the soul. They are so important than one’s eternal salvation is at stake, and not only one’s own.

People who are journeying, investigating, on the way but not yet Catholic, it is one thing – but for people who propose that they are Catholic, it is quite another.

To be a Catholic is to submit to revealed truth, both understood and not understood, because it is revealed by God, whether it be transubstantiation, grace, or Adam and Eve. 😃

I strongly urge picking up both Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, and Denzinger’s Sources of Catholic Dogma. Then you can start from dogma, and have a solid foundation for thought on these matters.

The types of people who would speculate without doing this, and without also going to tradition – people who are minimalists. . . Do not please God, far from it. It is a sign of hubris that people with such lack of sanctity and basic knowledge of the Faith would attempt to forge ahead theologically rather than learning what God has taught us through Revelation and the saints.

This incredible imprudence in regards to Revelation is hard to comprehend considering the gravity and sacred nature of the deposit of the Faith.

From what I have seen written here, there is among some a desire to prefer to refer to as authorities people who have no sanctity, who are against the Church, who found illusionary sciences and people who do not respect tradition. Referring to doctors, saints, Councils, etc. there seems to be an allergic reaction against. This is a sign of the spirit of the world at work, of being lost in error.

An example of Carl Jung:

"Following this break with Freud, he came close to a mental breakdown. He deliberately allowed his irrational side to function freely and he kept detailed notes of his strange experiences, dreams and visions. Certainly many strange events were reported around this time. His house felt haunted, his daughters claimed to have seen ghosts and he himself saw a crowd of spirits bursting into the house. As they disappeared, he went into a three day state of automatic writing leading to the production of his work entitled The seven sermons.

Jung was visited by a spirit guide who he named Philemon, a “pagan who brought with him an Egypto-Hellenistic atmosphere with a Gnostic coloration.” Although he may have suggested that the spirit guide was a figment of his imagination, in truth, as far as he was concerned it was a real being, “an old man with the horns of a bull. I was walking up and down the garden with him and to me he was what the Indians call a Guru.” He also became acquainted with another spirit guide named Ka. “Ka’s expression had something demonic about it - one might almost say Mephistopholean.” This is a highly pertinent observation as Jung, like Freud, was fascinated by the Faust-Mephistopheles legend about the doctor who sold his soul to the devil in order to obtain secret knowledge. Jung had by now obtained a whole series of messages from his spirit guides which were to determine the nature of his beliefs. The Jungian expert Doctor Anthony Storr concluded: “Jung thought of these spirit guides as existing in an imperishable world and manifesting themselves from time to time through the psyche of an individual.” "
Now anyone who knows anything about the demonic obviously can see the source of and foundation of Carl Jung’s work and how little value it has towards understanding the world because of its total separation from true science at its foundation.
 
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