Can you get married if you are infertile?

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RobbyS:
Marriage is more than a contract.
Robby,

I’d like to think, and am fairly certain (though I could be wrong) that 1Ke did not mean that he believes that marriage is merely a “contract.” Yeah, Catholics believe it’s a sacrament, and that the civil aspect of it is inseperable from the sacramental aspect, but, like grace is higher than nature, the sacramental (ecclesiastical) is superior to the civil.

I’m sure by “contract” he (or she?) meant something like “fulfill” or “make valid.” Maybe “get” married. The word “contract” can be used in reference to “getting” or “acquiring” something. Like, “I contracted a disease.” That’s just an example.

-Rob
 
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Della:
Yes, so long as you can complete the conjugal act in the normal manner with your spouse.
Hi Della,
I hope you dont mind my tagging onto your post as my answer and following questions are not directed only to you but to all who wish to follow the “rules” of the Roman Catholic church. As I am not a Roman Catholic I dont have any idea of your various rules. I did hear on TV just after the passing of the pope that you have 2000 rules.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful , For they shall receive mercy.
Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means; " I desire mercy and not sacrifice…"
In both quotes it is Jesus talking.
So do you think it is more important to judge these people according to the rules of the church or according to Christ’s words. Be merciful, love one another, He has come to save sinners. Not the righteous in rules. The law looks after those.
Do you want His mercy? To obtain it you need to be merciful.
Is it an act of mercy to allow marriage to an honest handicapped person. Or is it sin?
Walk in love
edwinG
 
Canon Law 1084 (The Code of Canon Law 1983)

Can. 1084 §1 Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have sexual intercourse, whether on the part of the man or on that of the woman, whether absolute or relative, by its very nature invalidates marriage.

§2 If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether the doubt be one of law or one of fact, the marriage is not to be prevented nor, while the doubt persists, is it to be declared null.

§3 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 1098, sterility neither forbids nor invalidates a marriage.

(Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters marriage inveigled by deceit, perpetrated in order to secure consent, concerning some quality of the other party, which of its very nature can seriously disrupt the partnership of conjugal life.)

Impotentcy invalidates marriage but sterility does not? How does that stack up against CCC 1654?

CCC 1654: Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life of full meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
 
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deb1:
I would think that if you deeply loved someone you would want what was best for them. Being locked in a marriage with no hope of children and sexual fufillment seems cruel on the part of the partner with the defect.
Cruel? Let’s hope nobody is pointing a shotgun at the spouse.

Marrying someone with their consent and knowledge of the situation seems less cruel than to get into the marriage expecting children, and then finding out there can be none.

Alan
 
How would one know if he was impotent, if he had not sinned before marriage?
It would seem the Church would hardly condone one particular activity that could prove his ability to, well, uhhh…
Caveat emptor, I suppose. “But Father I was only making sure I was prepared for marriage.”
They accept evidence from memories of someone’s past sins, why not. Don’t know about medical examinations, but some of those could be morally licit. At any rate, they wouldn’t do things like send you to a brothel for a check-up. 😉
most adolescent males experience night dreams and involuntary erections and therefore have first hand knowledge of their bodily function without performing a sinful action
Yeah, temptations are everywhere and people generally know if they ever get stimulated or not. I doubt erection is enough to exclude impotency. I suppose ejaculation would be required here. It generally happens to men who are not sexually active, so they tend to know.
In many case you would certainly know-- congenital deformity, paralysis, serious injury that has mutliated the genital orgns, an injury to the testicles or cancer that required their removal for example.
There are cases where it might not be known beforehand, most likely in the case of a female, but in many cases it would.
There are marriages in periculo mortis. Sometimes subsequent death is absolutely certain. It makes no difference whatsoever if the person is impotent or not since there won’t be any consummation. Death row convicts can marry before execution. And so on and so forth. So people who got a bulled in the lungs can marry but people whose whole body below the waist has got shattered by debris can’t?
They would not be able to do so. To my knowledge, impotence is not an impediment which can be dipsensed because consummation is required to contract the marriage validly.
There are valid marriages without consummation. The only case where Catholics actually do have divorce, apart from Pauline privilege or Petrine privilege. The Pope can dissolve valid and sacramental but unconsummated marriages. It’s not legalised polygamy. In a way, the marriage is treated as if it hadn’t existed, so this is more like a real annulment, as opposed to the declaration of nullity which is normally referred to as “annulment” (and this way of calling it makes people think that divorce is allowed under a different name, contributing to the “Catholic divorce” myth).
Marriage is more than a contract.
But if the contract is invalid, there’s no marriage. You must be conscious, consenting, informed and able to deliver.
You would never start off a marriage to live as “brother and sister.” When you get married, you intend to consumate the marriage with the marital act and be open to fertility.
Chastity-sworn lay saints have married like that to avoid scandal. Political alliances were concluded that way in middle ages. Even now, there are such marriages for people who are considered to be on high levels of spiritual development. As they obviously won’t consummate (although they can be dispensed from the vow of chastity by the Pope if not bishop), what difference does impotence make? Perhaps it’s enough that they could be dispensed, I don’t know. Another thing is that they don’t intend children and the Canon Law says you have to be open to children to marry validly. So I don’t know on what basis such marriages are granted but they are.
So a “brother and sister marriage” must be preceded by a consummate marriage??? There aren’t any circumstances that allow just a “brother and sister marriage”??? Thanks and God Bless.
There have been and are such circumstances. Don’t know any specifics, though. Perhaps a Google search on “josephite marriage” or “chaste marriage” or whatever such could help.
Supposedly there was one marriage like that. Back about 2000 years ago.
Do you suppose the marriage of Joseph and Mary would have held up under annulment hearings? They never consummated their marriage.
Consummation has no effect on validity. Couples are allowed to abstain if both parties agree.
 
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edwinG:
So do you think it is more important to judge these people according to the rules of the church or according to Christ’s words. Be merciful, love one another, He has come to save sinners. Not the righteous in rules. The law looks after those.
Hi, Edwin!

Do you really need to ask this? We’re talking sex here. When it comes to sex we specify all the details. We don’t do it ourselves because we are too holy and celebate, but we know how it is to be done and you had better do it that way or hit the highway to hell.

I suppose it’s finally time to unleash another of the used-to-be-a-priest recordings of Alan Watts, called “Sex and the Church.” I have uploaded it to wordsfree.org/catholic/audio/

Alan
 
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chevalier:
They accept evidence from memories of someone’s past sins, why not. Don’t know about medical examinations, but some of those could be morally licit. At any rate, they wouldn’t do things like send you to a brothel for a check-up. 😉
Aw, shucks, then count me out! 😛
Yeah, temptations are everywhere and people generally know if they ever get stimulated or not. I doubt erection is enough to exclude impotency. I suppose ejaculation would be required here. It generally happens to men who are not sexually active, so they tend to know.
Actually I suspected that many men would know, but we’re not supposed to admit to it, I figured.
There are valid marriages without consummation. The only case where Catholics actually do have divorce, apart from Pauline privilege or Petrine privilege. The Pope can dissolve valid and sacramental but unconsummated marriages. It’s not legalised polygamy. In a way, the marriage is treated as if it hadn’t existed, so this is more like a real annulment, as opposed to the declaration of nullity which is normally referred to as “annulment” (and this way of calling it makes people think that divorce is allowed under a different name, contributing to the “Catholic divorce” myth).
So Mary and Joseph could have gotten a real, genuine “annulment” then, it sounds like, had anybody asked.
But if the contract is invalid, there’s no marriage. You must be conscious, consenting, informed and able to deliver.
Yeah, my only problem is that I tended to deliver in advance of the green light.
So I don’t know on what basis such marriages are granted but they are.
There have been and are such circumstances. Don’t know any specifics, though. Perhaps a Google search on “josephite marriage” or “chaste marriage” or whatever such could help.
This all starts to sound like the secular law system. There is always some way around it, if we get technical enough.
Consummation has no effect on validity. Couples are allowed to abstain if both parties agree.
My “common sense” tells me you are right. Previous posters would have seemed to indicate otherwise, as I thought that the “no marriage in case of impotence” rule was what brought this whole part of the discussion about.

I don’t know. I honestly don’t care enough to go look it up, because I have a wonderful family and it’s all I can go to “pull out” of these forums from time to time to get done the things I gotta do. It is fascinating to discuss, though, and I like to ask questions so as to understand better, and to help drive those making assertions to examine their own faith more deeply.

Alan
 
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Shepard:
If you know before hand that you cannot physically ever conceive a child, can you still get married in the Church? Thanks everyone. (Just hypothetical)
Yes, but you have the duty to inform your spouse-to-be of your infertility prior to the marriage.
 
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RobbyS:
Marriage is more than a contract.
Let me repeat:

The** Church ** governs marriage and the Church states that impotence is an impediment to a valid marriage-- and it cannot be dispensed.

The person who originated this thread asked if infertility was an impediment, but they meant impotence. I answered the question. If you don’t like the answer, I am sorry, but it is NOT really up for debate. It is a fact. Look it up in Canon Law.
 
Reformed Rob:
I’d like to think, and am fairly certain (though I could be wrong) that 1Ke did not mean that he believes that marriage is merely a “contract.” -Rob
I’m a she, and you are correct. I was using it as a verb, not a noun.
 
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philipbenedict:
Canon Law 1084 (The Code of Canon Law 1983)

Can. 1084 §1 Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have sexual intercourse, whether on the part of the man or on that of the woman, whether absolute or relative, by its very nature invalidates marriage.

§2 If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether the doubt be one of law or one of fact, the marriage is not to be prevented nor, while the doubt persists, is it to be declared null.

§3 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 1098, sterility neither forbids nor invalidates a marriage.

(Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters marriage inveigled by deceit, perpetrated in order to secure consent, concerning some quality of the other party, which of its very nature can seriously disrupt the partnership of conjugal life.)

Impotentcy invalidates marriage but sterility does not? How does that stack up against CCC 1654?

CCC 1654: Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life of full meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice.
Hi philipbenedict,
Is this law or is this mercy?
walk in love
edwinG
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Hi, Edwin!

Do you really need to ask this? We’re talking sex here. When it comes to sex we specify all the details. We don’t do it ourselves because we are too holy and celebate, but we know how it is to be done and you had better do it that way or hit the highway to hell.

I suppose it’s finally time to unleash another of the used-to-be-a-priest recordings of Alan Watts, called “Sex and the Church.” I have uploaded it to wordsfree.org/catholic/audio/

Alan
Hi Alan,
I am so close to being licketly split out of here that I haven’t got time today to go to that site.
No not all the details, not mercy that is for sure. In fact we are definitely not talking about sex but the lack of it.
Would people here propose that two people who could not consummate a marriage live together as man and wife without being married? Do you think that such an act is setting a bad example for others? I mean they wont write a message on the door of their house telling the world that they are not having sex because they are physically unable. So people would misconstrue the situation. What do you require of these people who love each other? Are they meant to always live alone?
Lets explore their situation.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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1ke:
Let me repeat:

The** Church **governs marriage and the Church states that impotence is an impediment to a valid marriage-- and it cannot be dispensed.

The person who originated this thread asked if infertility was an impediment, but they meant impotence. I answered the question. If you don’t like the answer, I am sorry, but it is NOT really up for debate. It is a fact. Look it up in Canon Law.
Hi 1ke,
I am using your post because you have the words I am wishing to stress. Law. My stress is on mercy.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi 1ke,
I am using your post because you have the words I am wishing to stress. Law. My stress is on mercy.
walk in love
edwinG
You can stress whatever you want to, but the Divine Law remains and ultimately we must all conform to it-- if you love me you will keep my commands.
 
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Shepard:
If you know before hand that you cannot physically ever conceive a child, can you still get married in the Church? Thanks everyone. (Just hypothetical)
I say, talk to a priest!
 
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edwinG:
Hi philipbenedict,
Is this law or is this mercy?
walk in love
edwinG
Hello edwinG! I can see the mercy but also am adopted and that makes it difficult to understand the mechanics behind the law. I will try to remember to ask my parish priest about this one.
 
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1ke:
You can stress whatever you want to, but the Divine Law remains and ultimately we must all conform to it–** if you love** me you will keep my commands.
Hi 1ke,
Great quote.
So did Jesus give those commands that are your Divine Law or are they from men. Are all these laws accepted as written by the Holy Spirit -as is scripture.
Jesus said “love one another”
James says, “mercy overcomes judgement” Laws make judgements. The Holy Scripture says we are not under law but grace.
So I ask you 1ke, is putting stumbling blocks in someones path an act of love. Does this action by one person ( or a block of people) cause these two people ( at least) to become bitter or angry. Does your refusal, your will, seek to dominate their will. Where does Jesus say we are to make people angry. Jesus was only angry at the lawmakers, but He did not condemn them.
It is not our place to inflict our will over the law of love. Is there any reference anywhere where Jesus condemns such unions. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. So now you are in his shoes, what makes you think you would be happy to live in isolation. What makes you stronger, and even if you are stronger than everyone else, are you being mindful.
Where is your Holy fear and reverence. Judge not less you be judged and in the same manner.
Me, when I am before Christ I want to be judged with mercy because without mercy I am doomed.
walk in love
edwinG
 
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edwinG:
Hi 1ke,
Great quote.
So did Jesus give those commands that are your Divine Law or are they from men. Are all these laws accepted as written by the Holy Spirit -as is scripture.
Jesus said “love one another”
James says, “mercy overcomes judgement” Laws make judgements. The Holy Scripture says we are not under law but grace.
So I ask you 1ke, is putting stumbling blocks in someones path an act of love. Does this action by one person ( or a block of people) cause these two people ( at least) to become bitter or angry. Does your refusal, your will, seek to dominate their will. Where does Jesus say we are to make people angry. Jesus was only angry at the lawmakers, but He did not condemn them.
It is not our place to inflict our will over the law of love. Is there any reference anywhere where Jesus condemns such unions. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. So now you are in his shoes, what makes you think you would be happy to live in isolation. What makes you stronger, and even if you are stronger than everyone else, are you being mindful.
Where is your Holy fear and reverence. Judge not less you be judged and in the same manner.
Me, when I am before Christ I want to be judged with mercy because without mercy I am doomed.
walk in love
edwinG
Both Scripture and Natural Law make the purpose of marriage very clear-- be fruitful and multiply. Impotent people cannot do that. Jesus made the authority given to the church very clear: “WHATEVER you bind on earth, I will bind in heaven”. Yes, the Church does have this authority, and yes we are bound to follow.

You work from the premise that our lives are our own-- but the Bible says our lives are not our own, they were BOUGHT AT GREAT PRICE. So, in this case the persons should bear their cross as Christ did. As if being single is the worst thing in the world-- give me a break. The person who becomes “angry” or “bitter” and walks away is no different that the follower of Jesus who walked away in John 6 because he gave them a hard teaching they could not accept… and Jesus did NOT call them back. When you selectively look at Scripture and find only the soft and squishy Jesus you are not being honest-- God is both Just and Merciful.

Look-- you and I will agree to disagree. I reject the Protestant “bible only” heresy and you obviously can’t get past it. The Faith is far more than selective verses in the Bible.
 
1ke said:
Both Scripture and Natural Law make the purpose of marriage very clear-- be fruitful and multiply. Impotent people cannot do that. Jesus made the authority given to the church very clear: “WHATEVER you bind on earth, I will bind in heaven”. Yes, the Church does have this authority, and yes we are bound to follow.

You work from the premise that our lives are our own-- but the Bible says our lives are not our own, they were BOUGHT AT GREAT PRICE. So, in this case the persons should bear their cross as Christ did. As if being single is the worst thing in the world-- give me a break. The person who becomes “angry” or “bitter” and walks away is no different that the follower of Jesus who walked away in John 6 because he gave them a hard teaching they could not accept… and Jesus did NOT call them back. When you selectively look at Scripture and find only the soft and squishy Jesus you are not being honest-- God is both Just and Merciful.

Look-- you and I will agree to disagree. I reject the Protestant “bible only” heresy and you obviously can’t get past it. The Faith is far more than selective verses in the Bible.

Bolded by me.

I need a clarification here. You say that *impotent *people can’t be fruitful and multiply. People who are *infertile *can’t be fruitful and multiply either. Infertile people can have a normal marital act as opposed to a permanent impotent person.

Is it you opinion that infertility (not permanent impotent) are an impediment to marriage?
 
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AlanFromWichita:
How would one know if he was impotent, if he had not sinned before marriage?

It would seem the Church would hardly condone one particular activity that could prove his ability to, well, uhhh…

Caveat emptor, I suppose. “But Father I was only making sure I was prepared for marriage.”

Alan
Well, I would think that he would know. I would have to believe that any problems in that regard would be communicated.
 
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