Can you lose your salvation

[horselvr]

I just got off of the phone with an old dear friend and I fear damage has been done. For several years I have ignored her jabs at the Church and saying some pretty ignorant things about the Church but tonight she kept it up and finally I broke.

It all started by talking about the Wheaton College incident. This college is right down the road from her and she is disgusted that a statement was made by one of the staff that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I let her go on how this is not true and they do not worship the same God as we do. I asked her if they do not then what God do they worship. Our God said he is the alfa and the omega that there is no other God----so what god are they worshipping then. Not a good question to ask a protestant and one that is already ticked off.

From there she told me I needed a Bible study program “The Bible Study Fellowship” so I could learn about the Bible and Christ. When I said since it was a protestant bible study and if I went would she also go to a Catholic Bible study she immediately came out with “There aren’t any Catholic Bible study classes” I told her I just finished one and she might want to consider the Bible Timeline.

So things went down from there as she continued her attack on the CC. I told her I was quite surprised at her level of anti-Catholicism she lost it claiming we believe we have to work to get into Heaven and that we worship statues and when I told her that we do not and that she believes the stuff her preacher wrongly claims she went nuts claiming all the normal untruths that protestants believe. I told her that even God ordered cheribs to be carved into the Ark of the Covenant she practically called me a liar. I told her “It’s in the Bible” to look it up.

Needless to say the rest of the conversation did not go well and I told her I love her but had to go because the phone battery was about to shut us off.

Now that I have gone through this whole speel here’s my question. I asked if she was now a non-denom and she hemmed and hawed trying not to answer. I asked if she believed you must be baptised to be saved and she does not believe that. She also does not believe that she could loose her salvation. She believes OSAS but I pointed out that Sola Scriptura should believe the whole bible and not just parts of it. She does not believe Luther took books out of the Bible and that we Catholics should be thankful to Luther because of him we have a bible to read instead of having it chained to the pulpit. OHY it was not a good conversation. I am wondering if she is a fundamentalist. LOL

 

[Porknpie]

I just got off of the phone with an old dear friend and I fear damage has been done. For several years I have ignored her jabs at the Church and saying some pretty ignorant things about the Church but tonight she kept it up and finally I broke.

It all started by talking about the Wheaton College incident. This college is right down the road from her and she is disgusted that a statement was made by one of the staff that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I let her go on how this is not true and they do not worship the same God as we do. I asked her if they do not then what God do they worship. Our God said he is the alfa and the omega that there is no other God----so what god are they worshipping then. Not a good question to ask a protestant and one that is already ticked off.

From there she told me I needed a Bible study program “The Bible Study Fellowship” so I could learn about the Bible and Christ. When I said since it was a protestant bible study and if I went would she also go to a Catholic Bible study she immediately came out with “There aren’t any Catholic Bible study classes” I told her I just finished one and she might want to consider the Bible Timeline.

So things went down from there as she continued her attack on the CC. I told her I was quite surprised at her level of anti-Catholicism she lost it claiming we believe we have to work to get into Heaven and that we worship statues and when I told her that we do not and that she believes the stuff her preacher wrongly claims she went nuts claiming all the normal untruths that protestants believe. I told her that even God ordered cheribs to be carved into the Ark of the Covenant she practically called me a liar. I told her “It’s in the Bible” to look it up.

Needless to say the rest of the conversation did not go well and I told her I love her but had to go because the phone battery was about to shut us off.

Now that I have gone through this whole speel here’s my question. I asked if she was now a non-denom and she hemmed and hawed trying not to answer. I asked if she believed you must be baptised to be saved and she does not believe that. She also does not believe that she could loose her salvation. She believes OSAS but I pointed out that Sola Scriptura should believe the whole bible and not just parts of it. She does not believe Luther took books out of the Bible and that we Catholics should be thankful to Luther because of him we have a bible to read instead of having it chained to the pulpit. OHY it was not a good conversation. I am wondering if she is a fundamentalist. LOL

There are two kinds of people: those open to the truth and those that are not. The “fundamental” question here is which is she? The Holy Spirit however can soften even the hardest heart.

Perhaps a good thing here is to put an apologetics book in her hand that she can read on her time. Patrick Madrid’s book “Answer Me This” is a relatively small book that provides concise answers to most if not all of her misconceptions. It can plant some seeds and she can argue with the book and not you.

I would think as a friend that she would be quite willing to share what Church she is going to. I find this odd that she wouldn’t share it if true. Keep asking. In all likelihood, it will have a Statement of Beliefs. You can use this as a future talking point with her, highlighting where and why the Catholic Church differs - and very positively, where you agree.

 

[horselvr]

Thank you so much Porknpie.

I will definitely get the book you mention here as I think it could help us both. She really is a wonderful person and I have known her forever and we have shared a lot of laughs/tears through the years. I just never realized she is so anti-Catholic and I could hear the venom in her voice. I am praying for her and I am sure she is praying for me too.

She really wants me to go to a Bible Study Fellowship where she believes I will finally
encounter God-----(see now I take that as a rip on Catholicism) so I asked since this bible study is opened to all it must be protestant directed? Sure enough when I read the mission statement of this bible study you have to sign the statement practically denouncing your beliefs and accepting theirs.

I did ask why 30,000 different protestant churces all believing different things—she said they don’t believe differently and I asked really, then why all the different churches—if you believe the same why not just one church. I’m afraid this one question put here over the edge.

Thank you for the response and I will definitely get this book.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Thank you so much Porknpie.

I will definitely get the book you mention here as I think it could help us both. She really is a wonderful person and I have known her forever and we have shared a lot of laughs/tears through the years. I just never realized she is so anti-Catholic and I could hear the venom in her voice. I am praying for her and I am sure she is praying for me too.

She really wants me to go to a Bible Study Fellowship where she believes I will finally
encounter God-----(see now I take that as a rip on Catholicism) so I asked since this bible study is opened to all it must be protestant directed? Sure enough when I read the mission statement of this bible study you have to sign the statement practically denouncing your beliefs and accepting theirs.

I did ask why 30,000 different protestant churces all believing different things-–she said they don’t believe differently and I asked really, then why all the different churches—if you believe the same why not just one church. I’m afraid this one question put here over the edge.

Thank you for the response and I will definitely get this book.

We could ask the same about Catholics, the Orthodox churches and SSPX. All claim the “true Catholic faith”…

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Yes, you can lose your salvation. You can also lose friends by arguing with them.

May I suggest to you, if you want to engage her about faith, study her faith from her perspective. You obviously have learned the RC “script” just as most Protestants have learned their “script”. If you study Protestantism from Protestant theologians you will be able to meet her where she is and plant seeds about what the church believed prior to the Reformation.

Without being able to"speak Protestant" you will just butt heads until your friendship dissolves.

 

[Della]

Yes, you can lose your salvation. You can also lose friends by arguing with them.

May I suggest to you, if you want to engage her about faith, study her faith from her perspective. You obviously have learned the RC “script” just as most Protestants have learned their “script”. If you study Protestantism from Protestant theologians you will be able to meet her where she is and plant seeds about what the church believed prior to the Reformation.

Without being able to"speak Protestant" you will just butt heads until your friendship dissolves.

The only problem with that is she really doesn’t know anything about Protestant theologians, she only knows and believes what she hears from her particular ecclesial group, which obviously is very anti-Catholic. Most lay people have no interest in or knowledge of anything beyond what they hear in their churches. They don’t have time to study theology when they are run off their feet just living modern life.

horselvr, what drives your friend is fear–fear of losing her salvation and fear that you aren’t saved. You cannot argue with a feeling, and sadly, most people rely on their feelings instead of on facts. You’re going to have to let it go. If she wants to debate religion steer her onto another topic. If she won’t let it go, then tell her you won’t discuss it with her as long as she won’t give your words a fair chance and continues to attack your beliefs. A real friend doesn’t proselytize a friend. If she’s really a friend she will accept your not rising to the bait. If not, she’ll dump you as a lost cause. I’m afraid Jesus’ words about losing friends for the sake of the truth is all too real. It’s a pity, but sometimes it just can’t be avoided.

 

[Abu]

ChurchSoldier #4
You obviously have learned the RC “script” just as most Protestants have learned their “script”.

Perhaps it is time to consider what Jesus actually did and said in establishing His own Church, and no other, to be led by His chosen Peter.

Jesus explicitly made four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So since the Catholic “script” is that of the Christ, what other “script” can claim authenticity from God Himself?

 

[TonyBS]

So since the Catholic “script” is that of the Christ, what other “script” can claim authenticity from God Himself?

The answer to this is relevant to Salvation.

All Prophets of God that have recorded Word is Script from God.

The Script of the Old Testament as Attributed to the Prophets. The Script of the New Testament as Attributed to Jesus Christ. The script of the Koran which was recorded from Muhammad and the Script from the Bab and Baha’ullah that was recorded by Thier own pens and recorded from Their Talks.

Salvation is obtained in each Age/Dispensation of God when we accept and put into practice the Message given by God.

We thus loose Salvation if we Live in the age a message is given and have Failed to accept God and His Messenger.

Of course our ultimate demise or salvation is as God so Wills, as he Doeth Whatsoever He Willeth and it is not for us to question why.

Regards Tony

 

[Starwarsfan2]

You can fall from grace , so yes.

 

[TonyBS]

You can fall from grace , so yes.

May the Force be with all

Regards Tony

 

[horselvr]

Church Soldier my intent is not to argue. There really are protestants that just itch to let a Catholic know they are not appreciated. I feel that if she is happy where she is so be it but she at every turn feels she must convert me and honestly, I am getting a little tired of some protestants trying to tell me about MY religion especially when they re so off base.

She is Sola Scriptura based and OSAS and told me that we are silly to tell our sins to a man and to have to receive the last rites. I explained that what we believe is in the Bible or tradition.

I am just so sick of ignorant protestants. I kept telling her that I did not want to discuss this at all but she kept on attacking the Church and our beliefs.

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[Abu]

TonyBS #7
All Prophets of God that have recorded Word is Script from God.

The Script of the Old Testament as Attributed to the Prophets. The Script of the New Testament as Attributed to Jesus Christ. The script of the Koran which was recorded from Muhammad and the Script from the Bab and Baha’ullah that was recorded by Thier own pens and recorded from Their Talks.

.
“Attributed to” is not the same as the reality. The reality that is Jesus of Nazareth has no time for false prophets and there is no “Script from God” other than His Prophets of the Old Testament and the Church which he personally established as you now know.
As the Christ warned: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.

Christ proved that He is God by His death on the Cross and Resurrection which no other can show. This redeemed humanity from the cataclysm of Original Sin. No other religion has faith in a God who has taken a human nature, historically has been crucified and risen, with the testimony of many eye-witnesses. The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

 

[Michael68]

I just got off of the phone with an old dear friend and I fear damage has been done. For several years I have ignored her jabs at the Church and saying some pretty ignorant things about the Church but tonight she kept it up and finally I broke.

It all started by talking about the Wheaton College incident. This college is right down the road from her and she is disgusted that a statement was made by one of the staff that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I let her go on how this is not true and they do not worship the same God as we do. I asked her if they do not then what God do they worship. Our God said he is the alfa and the omega that there is no other God----so what god are they worshipping then. Not a good question to ask a protestant and one that is already ticked off.

From there she told me I needed a Bible study program “The Bible Study Fellowship” so I could learn about the Bible and Christ. When I said since it was a protestant bible study and if I went would she also go to a Catholic Bible study she immediately came out with “There aren’t any Catholic Bible study classes” I told her I just finished one and she might want to consider the Bible Timeline.

So things went down from there as she continued her attack on the CC. I told her I was quite surprised at her level of anti-Catholicism she lost it claiming we believe we have to work to get into Heaven and that we worship statues and when I told her that we do not and that she believes the stuff her preacher wrongly claims she went nuts claiming all the normal untruths that protestants believe. I told her that even God ordered cheribs to be carved into the Ark of the Covenant she practically called me a liar. I told her “It’s in the Bible” to look it up.

Needless to say the rest of the conversation did not go well and I told her I love her but had to go because the phone battery was about to shut us off.

Now that I have gone through this whole speel here’s my question. I asked if she was now a non-denom and she hemmed and hawed trying not to answer. I asked if she believed you must be baptised to be saved and she does not believe that. She also does not believe that she could loose her salvation. She believes OSAS but I pointed out that Sola Scriptura should believe the whole bible and not just parts of it. She does not believe Luther took books out of the Bible and that we Catholics should be thankful to Luther because of him we have a bible to read instead of having it chained to the pulpit. OHY it was not a good conversation. I am wondering if she is a fundamentalist. LOL

I run into this insanity all the time and most likely the reason for my agressive posts

 

[TonyBS]

Christ proved that He is God by His death on the Cross and Resurrection which no other can show.

Have you read of the Revelation and the subsequent Martyrdom of the Bab?

It may surprise you.

Regards Tony

 

[JonNC]

I just got off of the phone with an old dear friend and I fear damage has been done. For several years I have ignored her jabs at the Church and saying some pretty ignorant things about the Church but tonight she kept it up and finally I broke.

It all started by talking about the Wheaton College incident. This college is right down the road from her and she is disgusted that a statement was made by one of the staff that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I let her go on how this is not true and they do not worship the same God as we do. I asked her if they do not then what God do they worship. Our God said he is the alfa and the omega that there is no other God----so what god are they worshipping then. Not a good question to ask a protestant and one that is already ticked off.

From there she told me I needed a Bible study program “The Bible Study Fellowship” so I could learn about the Bible and Christ. When I said since it was a protestant bible study and if I went would she also go to a Catholic Bible study she immediately came out with “There aren’t any Catholic Bible study classes” I told her I just finished one and she might want to consider the Bible Timeline.

So things went down from there as she continued her attack on the CC. I told her I was quite surprised at her level of anti-Catholicism she lost it claiming we believe we have to work to get into Heaven and that we worship statues and when I told her that we do not and that she believes the stuff her preacher wrongly claims she went nuts claiming all the normal untruths that protestants believe. I told her that even God ordered cheribs to be carved into the Ark of the Covenant she practically called me a liar. I told her “It’s in the Bible” to look it up.

Needless to say the rest of the conversation did not go well and I told her I love her but had to go because the phone battery was about to shut us off.

Now that I have gone through this whole speel here’s my question. I asked if she was now a non-denom and she hemmed and hawed trying not to answer. I asked if she believed you must be baptised to be saved and she does not believe that. She also does not believe that she could loose her salvation. She believes OSAS but I pointed out that Sola Scriptura should believe the whole bible and not just parts of it. She does not believe Luther took books out of the Bible and that we Catholics should be thankful to Luther because of him we have a bible to read instead of having it chained to the pulpit. OHY it was not a good conversation. I am wondering if she is a fundamentalist. LOL

Well, let’s see.
#He that believes and is baptized… Baptism is necessary.
#Scripture is clear that we can reject grace.
#Perseverance of the saints is unscriptural
#The description of sola scriptura is somewhat off in the paragraph.
#She is right that Luther did not take books out of the Bible. His translation had 74 books. There’s an irony there, I’m sure. By the same token, I think it historically inaccurate to say that Catholicism added books.

I think it unfair to say that the CC “chained the Bible to the pulpit”.​

If you value her friendship, perhaps seeking points of agreement would soften the conversation.

Jon

 

[CuriousMike]

While I’m not entirely in the same position as you, I’ve been dealing with this sort of “discussion” lately - with a Church of England minister.
Obviously, it puts me, an ordinary person (and being younger) in this “inferior position,” where I can’t really defend my belief without being jumped on. People such as this hear things, or read bits and pieces of Catholic Doctrine and it causes them to “bark up the wrong tree,” as it were.

What often ends up happening in any sort of discussion I’ve had with Protestants is this immediate attack on MY beliefs, and that of the Church. Apparently everyone BAR Catholics know what the Catholic Church teaches and what they teach that isn’t biblical.
The ripper I got was that Catholics hold the Catchechism ‘equal to or higher than’ The Bible.

In response to your question, YES - It is possible to loose your salvation - and I might say its just as easy to loose as it is to gain: Every time we commit mortal sin, we KNOWINGLY turn our backs on God in favour of what we KNOW is not right.
Often times, upon realising what we’ve done, we come back to God, begging His forgiveness.

I would suggest reading some material here on CAF about Salvation - as I can’t really do it credit myself with my own explanation:
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/can-we-lose-our-salvation

 

[Reuben_J]

Apparently everyone BAR Catholics know what the Catholic Church teaches and what they teach that isn’t biblical.

Not surprising. We often met these types in our lives.

If they happened to be your friends then it would be tough though. But then again, it depends on the level of your friendship. If it is above petty religious difference, you can laugh it off. You even can take the positive out of it by actually learning your Bible and the catechism.

I had a Muslim friend from high school and when we stayed in college and experienced religious awakening which we picked up along the way, I remembered how we argued along the line ‘my religion is better than your religion’. In retrospect I often thanked the experience because it led me into research of my own religion and became what I am now. We are still friends though and there is mutual respect for each other, minus the childish argument.

 

[horselvr]

From the EWTN network.
"In the 16th century, Martin Luther adopted the Jewish list, putting the Deuterocanonical books in an appendix. He also put the letter of James, the letter to the Hebrews, the letters of John, and the book of Revelation from the New Testament in an appendix. He did this for doctrinal reasons (for example: 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 supports the doctrine of purgatory, Hebrews supports the existence of the priesthood, and James 2:24 supports the Catholic doctrine on merit). Later Lutherans followed Luther’s Old Testament list and rejected the Deuterocanonical books, but they did not follow his rejection of the New Testament books.

Finally, in 1546, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional list of the Catholic Church."

JonNC: Luther moved these books to a separate location in the Bible because HE thought they were not inspired. Eventually these books were removed because of luther stating they were not inspired. I’d like to know what authority he had to cause such upheaval and to rearrange the Bible.

Curious Mike: Understand my question is a rhetorical one I am well aware salvation can be lost—however she does not believe that. I even asked her what if you murdered someone tomorrow and she said she would still go to Heaven. i asked her if she was aware that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. No answer. I am quite well versed on Catholicism and I have the countless protestants that drive down my driveway to tell me I’m going to hell because I am Catholic to thanks for that.

ReubanJ: This is not a matter of “my religion is better than your religion” This was a matter of being attacked and having my religion attacked by a protestant that does not have a good grasp of Catholicism.

I did try to keep pointing out the points of agreement but she was on a roll and in attack mode.

Michael168: I have to honestly say that I am so sick and tired of the ignorance of most of the protestants I come in contact with that my posts are also becoming aggressive and once met with someone that feels like being anti-Catholic well then Katy bar the door. i don’t mind an honest question but really let’s face it the ignorant questions—(why do you worship statues) can be googled.

Abu and Della thanks I agree.

 

[JonNC]

=horselvr;13585804]From the EWTN network.
"In the 16th century, Martin Luther adopted the Jewish list, putting the Deuterocanonical books in an appendix. He also put the letter of James, the letter to the Hebrews, the letters of John, and the book of Revelation from the New Testament in an appendix. He did this for doctrinal reasons (for example: 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 supports the doctrine of purgatory, Hebrews supports the existence of the priesthood, and James 2:24 supports the Catholic doctrine on merit). Later Lutherans followed Luther’s Old Testament list and rejected the Deuterocanonical books, but they did not follow his rejection of the New Testament books.

First, Lutherans do not “reject” the DC books. The Lutheran confessions make no table of contents. Luther’s position on them are his opinion, but it is an opinion shared by many prior to him, and contemporary with him, including Cardinal Cajetan, who was otherwise no friend. The very fact that a Cardinal could hold essentially the same view publicly indicates the fact that these positions were accepted as part of Christian liberty prior to Trent. Luther’s view, while in the minority, was permitted.

Finally, in 1546, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional list of the Catholic Church."

It is Trent’s decision that would have made Luther’s, and Cajetans, and St. Jerome’s, and numerous others view of the canon outside Catholic teaching. Even at Trent, the position of the DC books as canonical was debated by those in attendance. Why? Because for the Catholic Church it was still not a settled matter.

JonNC: Luther moved these books to a separate location in the Bible because HE thought they were not inspired.

Exactly. It was his opinion. He held the commonly held (though not majority) view that they were not of the same level as the universally attested books. It was his opinion, an opinion he was permitted to hold, an opinion shared by others.

Eventually these books were removed because of luther stating they were not inspired. I’d like to know what authority he had to cause such upheaval and to rearrange the Bible.

Never by Luther himself, however. The 1545 translation has 74 books.
It is noteworthy that Luther, despite his view regarding them, insisted on their translation and inclusion in his 1534 translation. It is obvious by this fact, considering he was under no obligation to include them, spend his time, and that of his colleagues, translating them, the he held them and their traditional inclusion in high regard, the later polemical statements of his intentions notwithstanding.

There would have been no upheaval, save it was Luther and not some one the CC approved of at the time. Further, to my knowledge, there was no canon rule requiring the books to be ordered in a particular way. I also do not think there was a canon law prohibiting the inclusion of the Prayer of Manasseh.

A reading of his prefaces to the DC books is a good way of dispelling the misrepresentations by some apologists of Luther’s intentions and view of these books.

Michael168: I have to honestly say that I am so sick and tired of the ignorance of most of the protestants I come in contact with that my posts are also becoming aggressive and once met with someone that feels like being anti-Catholic well then Katy bar the door. i don’t mind an honest question but really let’s face it the ignorant questions—(why do you worship statues) can be googled.

On this we agree. While we cannot expect everyone to be versed in the traditions and beliefs of others, we can be open to listening to what others say about their beliefs: “Don’t tell me what I believe, tell me what you believe.”
The sad truth is that this happens just as frequently in the other direction, particularly in the form of, “all protestants believe …”, or “why do protestants believe…”.

Jon

 

[horselvr]

Thanks Jon.

I can honestly say that I do not know one Catholic that goes out of their way to verbally attack the protestants unless first met with this hostility. I am to the point that I no longer wish to have much to do with them because it always comes around to this. My brother-in-law is Lutheran and has never ever insulted us with any anti Catholic statements and we would never do that to him either.

The silly questions that some protestants bombard us with can be googled but are not just so they can spew their silliness about Catholicism.

We were taught not to have conversation like this with the protestants and so I at least endured ugliness from the protestants ever since I was a child. Now I no longer hold my tongue.