Can you lose your salvation

[fhansen]

Only God knows with 100% certainty whether we have it to begin with.

 

[Abu]

The reality is that ALL of these authoritative synod definitions on the books in the Bible were the same, culminating in the defined Canon of the Council of Trent.

Yet Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T.

The Missing Books of the Bible
FR. WILLIAM SAUNDERS
‘In 1534, Martin Luther translated the Bible into German. He grouped the seven deuterocanonical books (Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I & II Maccabees) of the Old Testament under the title “Apocrypha,” declaring, “These are books which are not held equal to the Sacred Scriptures and yet are useful and good for reading.” Luther also categorized the New Testament books: those of God’s work of salvation (John, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, I Peter, and I John); other canonical books (Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, rest of Pauline epistles, II Peter, and II John); and non-canonical books (Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation, and books of the Old Testament). Many Church historians speculate that Luther was prepared to drop what he called the “non-canonical books” of the New Testament but refrained from doing so because of possible political fall-out.’
catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-missing-books-of-the-bible.html

There was nothing “reformed” by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies. An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 – exposed and corrected the same year by the great *Casti Connubii *of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.”

The tragedy of the scattering is the thousands of sects today all led by those who feel they know better than Christ and His Magisterium.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I just got off of the phone with an old dear friend and I fear damage has been done. For several years I have ignored her jabs at the Church and saying some pretty ignorant things about the Church but tonight she kept it up and finally I broke.

It all started by talking about the Wheaton College incident. This college is right down the road from her and she is disgusted that a statement was made by one of the staff that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. I let her go on how this is not true and they do not worship the same God as we do. I asked her if they do not then what God do they worship. Our God said he is the alfa and the omega that there is no other God----so what god are they worshipping then. Not a good question to ask a protestant and one that is already ticked off.

From there she told me I needed a Bible study program “The Bible Study Fellowship” so I could learn about the Bible and Christ. When I said since it was a protestant bible study and if I went would she also go to a Catholic Bible study she immediately came out with “There aren’t any Catholic Bible study classes” I told her I just finished one and she might want to consider the Bible Timeline.

So things went down from there as she continued her attack on the CC. I told her I was quite surprised at her level of anti-Catholicism she lost it claiming we believe we have to work to get into Heaven and that we worship statues and when I told her that we do not and that she believes the stuff her preacher wrongly claims she went nuts claiming all the normal untruths that protestants believe. I told her that even God ordered cheribs to be carved into the Ark of the Covenant she practically called me a liar. I told her “It’s in the Bible” to look it up.

Needless to say the rest of the conversation did not go well and I told her I love her but had to go because the phone battery was about to shut us off.

Now that I have gone through this whole speel here’s my question. I asked if she was now a non-denom and she hemmed and hawed trying not to answer. I asked if she believed you must be baptised to be saved and she does not believe that. She also does not believe that she could loose her salvation. She believes OSAS but I pointed out that Sola Scriptura should believe the whole bible and not just parts of it. She does not believe Luther took books out of the Bible and that we Catholics should be thankful to Luther because of him we have a bible to read instead of having it chained to the pulpit. OHY it was not a good conversation. I am wondering if she is a fundamentalist. LOL

Before anyone gets to it there are plenty of articles about whether or not Christians and Muslims worship the same God on Catholic Answers and before someone says Allah is a pagan moon god all it is just Arabic for God and is also used by Christians and Jews. Your post looks very fundamentalist to me in some aspects I don’t doubt you are Catholic but arguing with something that was proclaimed in Vatican two seems kind of odd to me.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks Jon.

I can honestly say that I do not know one Catholic that goes out of their way to verbally attack the protestants unless first met with this hostility. I am to the point that I no longer wish to have much to do with them because it always comes around to this. My brother-in-law is Lutheran and has never ever insulted us with any anti Catholic statements and we would never do that to him either.

The silly questions that some protestants bombard us with can be googled but are not just so they can spew their silliness about Catholicism.

We were taught not to have conversation like this with the protestants and so I at least endured ugliness from the protestants ever since I was a child. Now I no longer hold my tongue.

I am happy that your brother-in-law has acted like a responsible Lutheran. No Lutheran should ever participate in attacks like you can see online by others. There are people such as David J.Stewart, who not only attack Catholics but Lutherans with equal vitriol.

I would only urge you to direct your attacks to those who attack you. More and more, Lutherans are not part of that group. The LCMS has stood with you in opposition to the HHS Mandate, as allies. And there is a growing level of dialogue between us, and I pray they bear fruit. In many ways, we have so much in common, and in this world, we need each other more and more.

Jon

 

[horselvr]

Jon I do not go out of my way to attack those of other faiths which is why I am disgusted by my friends attitude. She use to send me Jack Chick pamphlets which I just threw away—after reading them and just never mentioned them to her. She would also send my booklets on salvation yata yata which I also threw away and never mentioned. Now her attacks have become verbal over phone conversations. I have to wonder what makes someone think this is appropriate. But no i do not call her up and attack her but when she does get nasty about Catholicism i am not afraid to hit her with hard cold facts.

My brother-in-law is a great guy and so is his brother who is a rev in the Lutheran church.
Yes we do have much in common and I also tried to sway the phone conversation with my friend in that direction but she was hell bent on letting my know exactly what she thought of the CC. So be it.

 

[JonNC]

Jon I do not go out of my way to attack those of other faiths which is why I am disgusted by my friends attitude. She use to send me Jack Chick pamphlets which I just threw away—after reading them and just never mentioned them to her. She would also send my booklets on salvation yata yata which I also threw away and never mentioned. Now her attacks have become verbal over phone conversations. I have to wonder what makes someone think this is appropriate. But no i do not call her up and attack her but when she does get nasty about Catholicism i am not afraid to hit her with hard cold facts.

My brother-in-law is a great guy and so is his brother who is a rev in the Lutheran church.
Yes we do have much in common and I also tried to sway the phone conversation with my friend in that direction but she was hell bent on letting my know exactly what she thought of the CC. So be it.

Don’t misunderstand, I am not saying you have gone out of your way to attack.
I will say this, if she is sending you Jack Chick tracts, then the issue is simply stupidity, by which I mean, “the ability to learn, the opportunity to learn, and choosing not to do so.” No thinking Christian would use Chick tracts to make their point.

In terms of religious conversation, my sense from a distance is that it is time to “shake the dust off your feet.”

Jon

 

[horselvr]

Jon she and I have been through marriages, divorces, deaths, births. We have known each other for probably 40 yrs. I am very saddened by all this especially because I believe you could be right when you said to shake the dust from my feet. Thanks

 

[JonNC]

Jon she and I have been through marriages, divorces, deaths, births. We have known each other for probably 40 yrs. I am very saddened by all this especially because I believe you could be right when you said to shake the dust from my feet. Thanks

Note, though, only in terms of religious debate, might you have to shake the dust. At the same time, try to maintain the friendship in a secular way.

I pray for a softening of her heart, and a brightening of your friendship.

Jon

 

[Della]

Note, though, only in terms of religious debate, might you have to shake the dust. At the same time, try to maintain the friendship in a secular way.

I pray for a softening of her heart, and a brightening of your friendship.

Jon

I agree 100% with this. This friend is the one who has put an impediment on the friendship. If she can’t let go of her animus, that’s one thing, but to keep after a friend, attacking her beliefs, and sending unwanted material, etc. are not acts of a friend but of a proselytizer. If she won’t desist when asked then she will have to be told, firmly, but charitably, that this behavior will no longer be tolerated.

In every relationship there are boundaries, she has not only stepped over the boundary of common courtesy, she has trampled it under foot in the name of faith. That’s not evangelizing, that’s bullying. It’s painful to potentially lose a friend, but this person is no longer a friend, sad to say.

 

[JonNC]

I agree 100% with this. This friend is the one who has put an impediment on the friendship. If she can’t let go of her animus, that’s one thing, but to keep after a friend, attacking her beliefs, and sending unwanted material, etc. are not acts of a friend but of a proselytizer. If she won’t desist when asked then she will have to be told, firmly, but charitably, that this behavior will no longer be tolerated.

In every relationship there are boundaries, she has not only stepped over the boundary of common courtesy, she has trampled it under foot in the name of faith. That’s not evangelizing, that’s bullying. It’s painful to potentially lose a friend, but this person is no longer a friend, sad to say.

Well, we don’t know if the OP will continue to have as a friend or not, as we are not informed of their total relationship. Certainly, however, what you say is possible.

As we look at the future, the story should give all Christians pause about how we treat each other. The enemies of our faith do not distinguish between our communions as we do. They see all of us as infidels, worshipper of the cross, or even superstitious fools. We better learn to get along

Jon

 

[Della]

Well, we don’t know if the OP will continue to have as a friend or not, as we are not informed of their total relationship. Certainly, however, what you say is possible.

Well, I hope you never have to experience this kind of harassment form a friend. It’s very real, I’m afraid. It’s up to the friend to moderate her behavior. If she won’t, she may drive her friend away, and for good reasons.

As we look at the future, the story should give all Christians pause about how we treat each other. The enemies of our faith do not distinguish between our communions as we do. They see all of us as infidels, worshipper of the cross, or even superstitious fools. We better learn to get along

Jon

Getting along is fine, of course. Compromising truth to do so isn’t. We can all love each other as fellow Christians, but we cannot give into indifferentism. As I see it, that’s the real enemy of our faith in modern times.

 

[Porknpie]

She really wants me to go to a Bible Study Fellowship where she believes I will finally encounter God-----(see now I take that as a rip on Catholicism) so I asked since this bible study is opened to all it must be protestant directed? Sure enough when I read the mission statement of this bible study you have to sign the statement practically denouncing your beliefs and accepting theirs.

Sigh. We have a non-denominational bible study in our town, across several churches and Catholics are welcome. They just can’t be a team leader. Oh well, I’ve never attended. This was a number of years ago I found out about this and I have a friend who is a team leader. Some years later now, I find myself now keeping an eye out for the right opportunity, perhaps a study on the Gospel of John. ;

I did ask why 30,000 different protestant churches all believing different things—she said they don’t believe differently

Well you are right and she errors. I’ve found that baptism is a good starting point to dialogue.

What does the bible say:

• Is it salvific or not?
• Should infants be baptized or should baptism be delayed to the age of reason?
• Baptism by full immersion, pouring or sprinkling ?

What do the writings of the early Church say on both points above, way before there was ever a bible?

What did the 16th century reformers say … who said salvific and who said not?

Why did they not agree with each other and who had the authority to disagree with 1,500 years of Church teaching? Where did this authority come from? (OK we’re straying from the strict topic of Baptism now)

I asked really, then why all the different churches—if you believe the same why not just one church. I’m afraid this one question put here over the edge.

I may be wrong, but this indicates to me that she has thought of the question and the possible answers. Interesting that I have watched many of the EWTN Journey Home episodes and so very frequently, those converts to Catholicism admit that this bothered them very much previous to their conversion. It’s understandable. How can a book that is the “Final Authority” be so unclear. And what did Christ then mean when he promised to lead his Church to all truth.

I will definitely get this book.

Many good books but this one …very simple, pithy really, was one that sparked me a number years ago to better catechize myself. From there to Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, the Founder of Catholic.com / Catholic Answers. I was less interested in the historical foots of fundamentalism and more the excellent apologetics Keating scribed in the book.

In the end, drop seeds. Don’t bomb her. If she’s open to the book great. In talking to her, tell her ahead of time what you topic you would like to discuss, ie, baptism. Be prepared. Stay on that one subject to the extent possible and frankly, make her answer your questions. If she doesn’t know that’s fine. Help her. But close the door to her asking about 20 different subjects in 30 seconds without breathing (interesting … that Catholic’s too are quite capable of this as well). When done with subject #1, let her pick subject #2. Alternate. That’s fair. Also…best to talk over coffee and cake. Hard for me to get mad at anyone when I’m drinking my coffee and eating cake.

I wouldn’t go to her bible study. But that’s just me. I would especially reject anything that someone would make me sign that tried to mitigate at all the apostolic faith handed down.

Good luck! Let me know. All reactions from her are possible.

Personal note from above…my friend who is a Church of God member was always afraid of my salvation. That was years ago. Now I hear him tell me that he believes me to be saved.

You don’t know how good that makes me feel. :dancing:

Not that he has any authority to say so.

 

[horselvr]

adamhovey: “your post looks very fundamentalist to me in some aspects I don’t doubt you are Catholic but arguing with something that was proclaimed in Vatican two seems kind of odd to me.”

She is not Catholic and hasn’t a clue what Vatican 2 is or what it proclaims.

I happen to be Catholic to the bone. What on earth are you talking about???

Everyone else thanks for the most helpful responses and advice and steering me towards books that are helpful.

Personally, I do not feel that our friendship can survive this as I am pretty well tired of her opinions on the Catholic Church.

I asked if she has ever been to Mass-----NO.

I asked if she had ever been to Catechism classes to see for herself exactly what we believe—NO

I asked where she gets her information on what Catholics believe—she said from those that have left Catholicism to join her church.

I have explained before that asking about Catholicism from those that don’t have a clue is useless.

Anyway I need to quit rehasing this because the more I think about it the angrier I become. And to think I put up with her anti-Catholicism for years just so there would not be an argument. I have learned one thing from this that some protestants really enjoy this game hoping they will catch a Catholic not knowing but once they step into it and the tables get turned around by a Catholic that is pretty well up in her religion they get their panties in a bunch.

 

[horselvr]

PorknPie: You have hit the nail on the head when you said this:

“We have a non-denominational bible study in our town, across several churches and Catholics are welcome. They just can’t be a team leader.”

I went on the Bible Study Fellowship site and noticed that I would have to sign a statement denouncing my own faith and that I would not be able to be a team leader just as you stated.

This shows me that I do not want to be a part of this at all.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

adamhovey: “your post looks very fundamentalist to me in some aspects I don’t doubt you are Catholic but arguing with something that was proclaimed in Vatican two seems kind of odd to me.”

She is not Catholic and hasn’t a clue what Vatican 2 is or what it proclaims.

I happen to be Catholic to the bone. What on earth are you talking about???

Everyone else thanks for the most helpful responses and advice and steering me towards books that are helpful.

Personally, I do not feel that our friendship can survive this as I am pretty well tired of her opinions on the Catholic Church.

I asked if she has ever been to Mass-----NO.

I asked if she had ever been to Catechism classes to see for herself exactly what we believe—NO

I asked where she gets her information on what Catholics believe—she said from those that have left Catholicism to join her church.

I have explained before that asking about Catholicism from those that don’t have a clue is useless.

Anyway I need to quit rehasing this because the more I think about it the angrier I become. And to think I put up with her anti-Catholicism for years just so there would not be an argument. I have learned one thing from this that some protestants really enjoy this game hoping they will catch a Catholic not knowing but once they step into it and the tables get turned around by a Catholic that is pretty well up in her religion they get their panties in a bunch.

Just pray for your mom. Jesus was also rejected by those who knew him, or at least thought they did.