Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

[DreadVandal]

\

Can you imagine being in heaven, seeing not evil dictators, but people who remarried after their spouses left them, abused women who left their husbands and started new families, women whose lives were endangered by pregnancy and who sterilized themselves because their husbands were controlling and refused to use NFP, young men who succumbed to sexual desire etc.

Can you imagine seeing those people in utter agony for an eternity, never ending, the worst torture you can possibly imagine (in fact it’s so bad you can’t even conceive of it) and feeling proud of God for doing that?

I think if I saw that I’d ask God to go to hell voluntarily because I would not want to do anything with a being who created such an unjust system.

In this life we have little knowledge of the big picture and we are under the sway of the passions. In the resurrection, when we are liberated from the passions and see God face to face, then we should see all of the cold satisfaction with which God sees things.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Nicene:

Just out of curiosity, you’ve said this several times. Where do you get this little bit of stupidity?

On another note, If I believed as you do apparently and my consequences were limited to the mere slap on the wrist I would be any one of the Ghengis Khans, Hitlers, Neros, Diocletians etc. of the world without question. Only a moron wouldn’t take advantage of a sweet deal like that.

If good and bad are relative then there is no reason what so ever not to feed our most base desires and attain them at the expense of others. There is no intrinsic reason to be good at all other than coping out and being a chicken **** for not doing it.

Sending me back God? Thanks, rinse and repeat.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

The saints enjoying sinners in hell refers to what someone said in an earlier post. That saints enjoy the suffering of those in hell or something like that.

So then you would ignore what Christ taught since there would be no “punishment” for it? Maybe we should do that simply because it is the right thing to do and ultimately in our own best interest as it creates a full, rich, and joyful life (and afterlife).

 

[Nicene]

ReformedCatholic:

And is the occasional selfishness, gluttony, or laziness even harmful to others? Does any of it really consist of “mortal” sin?

As far as sex goes, I think there’s a terrible misconception about it being “bad” and “evil” and all that. You combine the millenia old idea that sperm were little people and what I believe to be Augustine’s “reaction formation” (condemning that which one used to practice, only on a subconscious level) to the life of debauchery he lived prior to his conversion.

If sex and the sexual aspect of ourselves is so bad, why even create it? Why bother with having people be “attracted” to each other and so forth? We could have just as easily been indoctrinated to ritualistically reproduce without any emotional involvement at all. Religion can be good at this!

I would suggest reading “Theology of the body.” The church doesn’t consider sex bad, it is the abuse of sex that is bad. It takes something good that God created and turns it into something perverted. Ever wonder why catholic families are so big if we consider sex to be bad? Seems like a dichotomy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

ReformedCatholic:

So then you would ignore what Christ taught since there would be no “punishment” for it? Maybe we should do that simply because it is the right thing to do and ultimately in our own best interest as it creates a full, rich, and joyful life (and afterlife).

I think you misread what I wrote, go back and read the post and what it was replying to.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

But how does that make any sense, really? Why should human beings inherently deserve to be tortured forever? If we’re so rotten, why create us in the first place?

Such is the teaching of Scripture, which is the Word of God.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

melbourne_guy:

Eternal punishment has been the one thing that has sometimes made me qestion my faith and religion. I always sit up at night thinking about how long forever is and if it would be fair for someone to be torured for enternity. I read in the apocalypse of St.Peter that Peter questions jesus about all the suffering in hell and jesus replies in secret something like, dont worry some day the gates of hell will be opened. Now the apocalypse of St.Peter is VERY heretical, but theres apart of me that wants to think that maybe someday the gates of hell will open.

Why not? God can do anything. We’re pretty arrogant to think that He tells use everything and that we should know what He would or would not do!

 

[ReformedCatholic]

melbourne_guy:

Its not that, but I fear for the salvation of my family, could you really enjoy heaven knowing that your mum or dad or whoever you love is being burned?

Excellent point. That wouldn’t really be “heaven” now would it?

 

[DreadVandal]

mike182d:

Ready for a thread hijacking?

If God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful He would know which souls would end up in Hell before even creating them. He would know that after they were created they would never accept Him. Why, then, would He create someone He *knows *will end up in Hell when everything is said and done before they’re even created?

One traditional way of looking at would be to say that a world where some people are punished in hell is a better world than one where there are no people punished in hell. God is free to display all of his attributes, including his wrath toward sin. So there is no contradiction in God’s being all good and God’s freely creating some people he knows will fall into unrepented mortal sin.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

No need to worry if you live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings, and if you fall, as we all do occasionally, just zoom along to Confession.

I wonder if Hitler or Stalin converted and did that just before they died if that would have gotten them into heaven. You see where this can get perplexing.

 

[DreadVandal]

ReformedCatholic:

Excellent point. That wouldn’t really be “heaven” now would it?

Is it possible for God to be in pain? To suffer? If so, then God is limited by being moved by finite things. If God feels no sorry at those who are damned, He can make us so that we will feel no sorrow as well.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

solarwind23:

No, and as I said people should be punished JUSTLY. If you remarry after having been abandoned you hardly merit ETERNAL suffering. Maybe a few years of punishment, but not forever.

Come on.

Why would you even be punished for that at all? Because you were a victim of someone else’s behavior and you wanted to make the best of your life? Doesn’t make sense.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DreadVandal:

In fact, most of the Church fathers, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas all argue that the saints in heaven rejoice at the sufferings of the damned.

Well, then we need to rethink the concept of “saint” because that’s the behavior of a sociopath.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Nicene:

And there you have the gist of it. What or who made you self aware? What or who gave you the ability to distinquish right from wrong?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Right, so God made us self-aware. He gave us free will. He sent Christ to us to teach us how to live. Sounds like He had it all covered.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Sure it does, it shows contempt for the other person as a self aware person, It also shows contempt for God who is in them.

This seems to be based on antiquated views of sexuality.

Show imperically the existance or non existance of a soul. That part of us which tells us something is intrinisically good or evil.

There’s no need. One doesn’t have to prove an opinion.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

solarwind23:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Bin Laden believed in God. He is not exactly gaining a lot by being a terrorist. Wasn’t he born into one of the richest families? He could have been very powerful and successful. Instead he’s spending his money promiting a belief system that’s caused him to be on the run from various authorities who want to capture/kill him. What he’s doing is pretty consistent with conservative Islamic teaching/ literal interpretation of Quran.

Maybe authoritative religion in general was invented by people who wanted control over others. Any system that’s about obedience to an earthly authority whether it be the imams/mullahs/Islamic State/Catholic Church smacks of that to me.

The purest religion is what exists between a free individual and God. Whether God actually exists is another question, but whenever obedience is brought into the equation so is power. And we both know how people throughout history have desired power over others.

Very true. This has certainly been done, even in the Catholic Church.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

solarwind23:

I don’t know how consciousness works, maybe one day I will.

As far as right and wrong goes, my intellect, things I have learned. Morality has varied throughout time. Back in the Old Testament days there was polygamy, slavery, stonings for various offenses, even in Christ’s time and the Church’s time there was slavery, dreadful treatment of women in society etc.

Gradually over time human beings have learned better, have come up with more compassionate and evolved moral codes. Now we forbid slavery, consider women equal to men, value freedom of speech and thought and democracy etc.

My morality is based on my own thoughts and what I have learned from culture. The fundamental moral principle I operate under is compassion/empathy/love of fellow man. What changes is my understanding of what’s best for people and how best to protect each other.

Very nice.

 

[solarwind23]

Nicene:

First, the Pope doesn’t get to act individually no matter what you may have been taught. He may be able to impose sanctions within the church individually but he doesn’t get to go off the cuff and declare whatever he pleases. That’s a falacy that’s been sold. He is there to serve. Have there been those who have abused their office? Yep, but few and far between over 2 millenia.

The pope and Church hierarchy control a fair bit of Catholic life. In the past they controlled more, they even had a list of forbidden books Catholics could not read.

While I appreciate that you think we are all drones I think it is a fair assesment that the charity throughout the history of the church i.e. taking care of the poor, prison etc. as well as higher education speaks for itself.

I don’t think you or other Catholics are all drones. I’ve met many very individual Catholics in my life. But I do think that’s where obedience ultimately leads: you end up letting another person define who you are, what you think, how you live your life. I’m sorry if what I said offended you. I think we all get carried away in debates at times.

As far as Church taking care of the poor, that’s great! But you know, governments also take care of the poor with welfare systems, health care, etc. Did you see the huge amounts of money donated by governments and coroporations after the tsunami hit Asia? Governments now provide education etc. And thumbs up to all these organization who do these good things.

What governing body (theological or otherwise) has lasted 2 thousand years. That in itself is a miracle. Not because of the church, but in spite of her because of Christ’s promise. That is heavenly protection, not becuase of the bad things that have happened, but because of all the good the church has done throughout the centuries, contrary to all the selective propoganda thrown our way.

Well, other religious traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism have been around even longer. Judaism is also still around, and it predates Christianity.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Nicene:

As far as the borg comment, you have just displayed what I mentioned ealier, the athiestic Lion. So much for compassion and working together to help others /shrug.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Not sure I follow. I do understand the Borg analogy though. I think the difference here lies in the perception that ANY individuality is “bad.” I don’t see that it is. We are all unique human beings- no two are the same. I think we can both be “individuals” and work together simultaneously. I don’t see why we couldn’t.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Nicene:

God has no desire to torture anyone. Predestination presupposes such a system. It makes God into a kid with a chemistry set holding a rat over a flame. Enter free will. We choose hell over heaven. God in his justice lets us have which we want. You have a lifetime to choose it in. In choosing to do evil over good we show contempt for God and his creation. In choosing good over evil, we show the love we have for God by loving our fellow man. (That doesn’t necessarily mean hugs and kisses, you can love someone without liking them too much)

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Which brings me back to a previous question: why can we not “repent” after we die? Why could we not ask God for His forgiveness, which is supposedly infinite?

 

[solarwind23]

DreadVandal:

One traditional way of looking at would be to say that a world where some people are punished in hell is a better world than one where there are no people punished in hell. God is free to display all of his attributes, including his wrath toward sin. So there is no contradiction in God’s being all good and God’s freely creating some people he knows will fall into unrepented mortal sin.

So God creates people knowing in advance they’ll be enduring unbearable torture for an ETERNITY just so that he could show off is wrath toward sin?

This God cannot claim to be good or loving.

I mean, really, imagine human parents had some children who they knew in advance would be obedient and whom they’d love infinitely and treat well and some who they knew in advance would be disobedient (i.e. they knew such a child would result before they had sex but did it anyway) for the sole purpose of torturing in the most vile ways so they can demonstrate how wrathful they can be toward children who disobey them.

If such a God exists then we’re all screwed. It means he WANTS some of us to be in hell so that he could show off his wrath toward sin, and knowing in advance that some people will choose hell he deliberately creates them for that very purpose.

Hmmmmmmmmmm