Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

[melbourne_guy]

I really hope Jesus shows some leniancy for this generation, the most anti-cathoclic generation to hit the earth. I went to a catholic school and i can say over 90% viewed pornography(with the rise of the internet), the teachers didnt even condone masturbation. Hardly any of the kids went to church or knew anything about the churches laws, and i reapeat this is a catholic school im talking about. Wouldnt it be better for God to just purify everyone through purgatory? Every one would end up worthy of heaven in the end.

 

[Pryority7]

I really hope Jesus shows some leniancy for this generation, the most anti-cathoclic generation to hit the earth. I went to a catholic school and i can say over 90% viewed pornography(with the rise of the internet), the teachers didnt even condone masturbation. Hardly any of the kids went to church or knew anything about the churches laws, and i reapeat this is a catholic school im talking about. Wouldnt it be better for God to just purify everyone through purgatory? Every one would end up worthy of heaven in the end

Purgatory does not serve the function of purifying just anyone who dies in a state of rebellion against God (mortal sin). Purgatory is for the saved only. It’s only a removal of the presence of sin in the ones who are saved yet still struggle with residues of self. It’s the removal of our sin natures that have plagued us all of our lives. For God to purify everyone is to eliminate the essence of free will. People will freely reject God and God will respect that. To do what you suggest is basically God making us robots…programmed to love Him, not truly love him. Your concept of purgatory needs purging…

 

[richbansha]

melbourne_guy:

I really hope Jesus shows some leniancy for this generation, the most anti-cathoclic generation to hit the earth. I went to a catholic school and i can say over 90% viewed pornography(with the rise of the internet), the teachers didnt even condone masturbation. Hardly any of the kids went to church or knew anything about the churches laws, and i reapeat this is a catholic school im talking about. Wouldnt it be better for God to just purify everyone through purgatory? Every one would end up worthy of heaven in the end.

I don’t know about others but I am for giving it a chance. We have two ways to attack this:

From Hebrews we know that faith is the substance of things hoped for. So, if enough of us pray for it and really believe in it. It just might happen.

Or, We can pray that the Holy Father decides to use his Keys to the Kingdom to “loose” enough on Earth to counter Hell or even call it off unilaterally. What have we got to lose?

 

[ReformedCatholic]

That would be quite a nice way of handling sin, would it?
The fact is that that is not what the human soul is made for. We were made to be in Heaven. Our individual choices in this life and this life alone determines the permanent state of our souls for eternity. Heaven is not a rehabilitation center for the morally evil. Earth is. What you’re describing is what can potentially happen in the heart of evil people NOW while they are here. The closest thing after death that can be akin to what you described here is purgatory, and even that is for the saved only. Scripture is clear: there is no second chance after death. (Hebrews 9:27). The Hell that awaits the unsaved is the Hell they have chosen in this life. A willful rejection of Love and all that Love is (God) is the essence of damnation. Death removes the last contact to change that, for the soul is in a permanent state after death. The state of salvation or damnation. Our choices are now. Our looking at what we’ve done are now (and perhaps in purgatory). But to think that a Hitler or a Stalin can be changed after they die…nope.

So a Hitler or Stalin could be changed while they were still alive? Would they be “saved?”

What state is the soul actually “in” after death? A permanent state of… what? If we do go to heaven, what do we spend our time doing there?

I think that it’s easier to accept an absolutist concept which is easier to process with our finite minds. But I’m not entirely convinced.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Pryority7:

Purgatory does not serve the function of purifying just anyone who dies in a state of rebellion against God (mortal sin). Purgatory is for the saved only. It’s only a removal of the presence of sin in the ones who are saved yet still struggle with residues of self. It’s the removal of our sin natures that have plagued us all of our lives. For God to purify everyone is to eliminate the essence of free will. People will freely reject God and God will respect that. To do what you suggest is basically God making us robots…programmed to love Him, not truly love him. Your concept of purgatory needs purging…

I thought you were either “saved” or you weren’t. At least that’s what the Protestants think, isn’t it? And if it’s not that way, then why would you go to purgatory if all you have to do is go to Confession before you die?

I submit that purgatory would be for those individuals not truly deemed as “saved” but rather the more average person that was not.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

melbourne_guy:

I really hope Jesus shows some leniancy for this generation, the most anti-cathoclic generation to hit the earth. I went to a catholic school and i can say over 90% viewed pornography(with the rise of the internet), the teachers didnt even condone masturbation. Hardly any of the kids went to church or knew anything about the churches laws, and i reapeat this is a catholic school im talking about. Wouldnt it be better for God to just purify everyone through purgatory? Every one would end up worthy of heaven in the end.

I suspect this trend will continue, not “anti-catholicism,” but non-catholicism in the future. There will be a segment that grows that is completely secular and non-religious, and there will be another segment that will reject traditional churches and church teachings, viewing them as antiquated. That’s what I’m guessing anyway.

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

I thought you were either “saved” or you weren’t. At least that’s what the Protestants think, isn’t it? And if it’s not that way, then why would you go to purgatory if all you have to do is go to Confession before you die?

I submit that purgatory would be for those individuals not truly deemed as “saved” but rather the more average person that was not.

You are wrong. When you die the soul is immediately judged (The Particular Judgement) and you are either condemned (go to Hell) or saved (go to Heaven most likely via Purgatory for purification).
For a fuller explanation see the website below:

www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

 

[melbourne_guy]

ReformedCatholic:

I suspect this trend will continue, not “anti-catholicism,” but non-catholicism in the future. There will be a segment that grows that is completely secular and non-religious, and there will be another segment that will reject traditional churches and church teachings, viewing them as antiquated. That’s what I’m guessing anyway.

yes thats what i meant sorry, non-catholicism. Im a very strong catholic but even i think the church will fade away. Our parish priest even told us in a sermon last week that the next generation of catholics wont experience the same catholicism as we do today. He also mentioned the priesthood is slimming.

 

[thistle]

melbourne_guy:

yes thats what i meant sorry, non-catholicism. Im a very strong catholic but even i think the church will fade away. Our parish priest even told us in a sermon last week that the next generation of catholics wont experience the same catholicism as we do today. He also mentioned the priesthood is slimming.

The Catholic Church will never fade away. If it did then it would mean that Christ had lied when he said the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

You are wrong. When you die the soul is immediately judged (The Particular Judgement) and you are either condemned (go to Hell) or saved (go to Heaven most likely via Purgatory for purification).
For a fuller explanation see the website below:

www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Of all the Catholic doctrines, purgatory actually makes the most sense to me. And if what you assert is correct, then most people would end up in pergatory whether they were “saved” or not. To go to “hell” one must demonstrate a willful and sustained turning away from God, yes? If I’m an average Joe who lived a decent life, that sounds like somebody good for purgatory- where he can become “purified” and then go to God.

The Hebrews reference they use is half the sentence: “Just as it is appointed that human beings die once and after this the judgement…” but what they left off was “…so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.”

This arguably changes the entire meaning of the passage! From this one can infer that salvation will be granted to those who “eagerly await Him.” No church, no confession- just eagerness, enthusiasm- LOVE perhaps? Very interesting…

 

[ReformedCatholic]

melbourne_guy:

yes thats what i meant sorry, non-catholicism. Im a very strong catholic but even i think the church will fade away. Our parish priest even told us in a sermon last week that the next generation of catholics wont experience the same catholicism as we do today. He also mentioned the priesthood is slimming.

I don’t think it will fade away either, but I do agree that it will lose a significant number of its members (and potential members). I suspect more progressive denominations will grow, absorbing some of those people, during this period as well.

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

Of all the Catholic doctrines, purgatory actually makes the most sense to me. And if what you assert is correct, then most people would end up in pergatory whether they were “saved” or not. To go to “hell” one must demonstrate a willful and sustained turning away from God, yes? If I’m an average Joe who lived a decent life, that sounds like somebody good for purgatory- where he can become “purified” and then go to God.

The Hebrews reference they use is half the sentence: “Just as it is appointed that human beings die once and after this the judgement…” but what they left off was “…so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.”

This arguably changes the entire meaning of the passage! From this one can infer that salvation will be granted to those who “eagerly await Him.” No church, no confession- just eagerness, enthusiasm- LOVE perhaps? Very interesting…

Christ took away our sins when he died but anyone sinning after his death is not automatically saved because they would be in a state of mortal sin. They would require the Sacrament of Reconciliation and forgiveness after repentence. If you are in a state of mortal sin when you die you are not saved.
It is definitely not the case as Protestants suggest that it does not matter how much you sin you are saved if you believe in Jesus. That argument makes no sense. Even Satan believes in Jesus.

Anyone who finds themselves in Purgatory IS saved and will endure the purification process before going into Heaven. There is nobody in Purgatory who is not saved.
Your destination is decided by the choice you make in this life. If you choose to reject God’s love and at the time of death you are in mortal sin then your soul is condemned to Hell. If you are in a state of grace when you die you are saved and either go to Heaven directly or via Puragtory first but in any event you are saved.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

Christ took away our sins when he died but anyone sinning after his death is not automatically saved because they would be in a state of mortal sin. They would require the Sacrament of Reconciliation and forgiveness after repentence. If you are in a state of mortal sin when you die you are not saved.
It is definitely not the case as Protestants suggest that it does not matter how much you sin you are saved if you believe in Jesus. That argument makes no sense. Even Satan believes in Jesus.

Anyone who finds themselves in Purgatory IS saved and will endure the purification process before going into Heaven. There is nobody in Purgatory who is not saved.
Your destination is decided by the choice you make in this life. If you choose to reject God’s love and at the time of death you are in mortal sin then your soul is condemned to Hell. If you are in a state of grace when you die you are saved and either go to Heaven directly or via Puragtory first but in any event you are saved.

What if I love God and choose to accept His Love, and live a moral life, and do good works, but never go to Church or have the Sacraments? Hell, then? Some would say that the Church’s argument(s) on this (and other) issues make no sense.

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

What if I love God and choose to accept His Love, and live a moral life, and do good works, but never go to Church or have the Sacraments? Hell, then? Some would say that the Church’s argument(s) on this (and other) issues make no sense.

By rejecting the Church’s teachings you are rejecting his love and you would put yourself in a state of mortal sin.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

By rejecting the Church’s teachings you are rejecting his love and you would put yourself in a state of mortal sin.

You’ve done exactly what Christ asked you to do. You love God above all else, and you’ve loved others as He loved you (the Two Commandments), you love Christ and are eager for His return, yet if you don’t go to Church you go to Hell? That doesn’t really make any sense. I think I’ve just provided the formula that makes the Church (any church) unnecessary for “salvation” or reunification with God. Sounds like Church is optional to me.

 

[Pryority7]

So a Hitler or Stalin could be changed while they were still alive? Would they be "saved?

Yes…that’s exactly what I’m saying. God created even those two guys for His glory. But they willfully chose to reject Him and His Son and His love, and in their case the results were catostrophic, both for them and for countless others.
It is in this world and in this life alone that we design the final piece of what will make us, “us”. After death our souls become fixed in the state that we’re in when we die, either united with God or separated from Him.

I will make this clear…Purgatory is NOT A SECOND CHANCE FOR THE DAMNED. There are no second chances after death. Where are you getting the idea that there’s hope even for the hardened sinner after death?

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Pryority7:

Yes…that’s exactly what I’m saying. God created even those two guys for His glory. But they willfully chose to reject Him and His Son and His love, and in their case the results were catostrophic, both for them and for countless others.
It is in this world and in this life alone that we design the final piece of what will make us, “us”. After death our souls become fixed in the state that we’re in when we die, either united with God or separated from Him.

I will make this clear…Purgatory is NOT A SECOND CHANCE FOR THE DAMNED. There are no second chances after death. Where are you getting the idea that there’s hope even for the hardened sinner after death?

I’m not saying it is a second chance for the damned. I’m just saying that it’s probably where 90% of folks go.

Where are you getting that there are no second chances after death? Are you also saying that there is no free will after death? Are you saying there are no disembodied priests that could hear confessions? You know this for a fact?

Where do I get the idea? From Christ and His teachings.

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

You’ve done exactly what Christ asked you to do. You love God above all else, and you’ve loved others as He loved you (the Two Commandments), you love Christ and are eager for His return, yet if you don’t go to Church you go to Hell? That doesn’t really make any sense. I think I’ve just provided the formula that makes the Church (any church) unnecessary for “salvation” or reunification with God. Sounds like Church is optional to me.

As previously mentioned the Catholic Church is the church established by Christ and is the Deposit of Faith with the authority to spread his word. Rejecting the teachings of the Church (which are the teachings of Christ ) and the Sacraments (all of which were instituted by Christ)is a mortal sin which by you separate yourself from God which means you have rejected his love. Our salvation is in Christ and the way to Christ is to be in full communion with his Church.

With regard to your comments to Pryority7 you might well be right about 90% but whatever percentage you pick it relates ONLY to those who are saved. Nobody is in Purgatory who is not saved. The condemned go immediately to Hell.
My understanding is that there will be a sort of free will in Heaven but there is no free will upon death to choose God once you realise that you are to go to Hell. Your choice of destination is made while you are still alive. It is fixed upon your death. No second chance exists after you die.

 

[Pryority7]

ReformedCatholic:

I’m not saying it is a second chance for the damned. I’m just saying that it’s probably where 90% of folks go.

Where are you getting that there are no second chances after death? Are you also saying that there is no free will after death? Are you saying there are no disembodied priests that could hear confessions? You know this for a fact?

Where do I get the idea? From Christ and His teachings.

Yes, I am saying that there are no second chances after death. Hebrews 9:27 is clear. It is destined for us to die once and after that comes judgement. Our ability to choose is not taken away after death. It is consummated…solidified to the state we chose while still alive on earth. If a person chooses evil and rejects all that is good, all that is of God, that person is choosing to reject the beauty that God made him to be. Free will is a risk, and that risk involved the created person in God’s image to reject the source of His life. To reject life is to choose death…spiritual death. The damned are in Hell because they don’t WANT GOD. They don’t want to do what it takes to be in Heaven…deny themselves, die to themselves, their sin, their selfishness. They need that because in essence, that becomes their god in place of the True God. Man by nature is a worshipper. If the true God is rejected, other gods must be worshipped (money, power, sex, etc). Hell is the everlasting death of that sin. The hardened sinner will not want to let that go…WILL NOT want to let it go. That is the essence of Hell. For God to have the unsaved go to Heaven anyway is like dragging a child kicking and screaming to a place he does not want to go. To go against their will. Where is free will there?
You sound like you don’t want anybody to be in Hell, but Jesus spoke more about Hell than anybody in the Bible. Most of what we know about the subject came from His lips! The Cross of
Christ is a mockery if the most unrepentant and evil people in the word who die in that state still go to Heaven against their will of course!

 

[Pryority7]

The saved in Heaven’s free will is consummated in their life long desire to serve God and love Him.

The damned in Hell’s free will is consummated their life long desire to serve self and love self.

Free will is always given, always been a part of the image of God in man. It is this free will that chooses Hell. That choice is finally consummated at death. Not afterwards.
Read C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce” It really opened my eyes to the wonders of free will.