Can you pray for suffering to be reduced in Hell?

[ReformedCatholic]

As previously mentioned the Catholic Church is the church established by Christ and is the Deposit of Faith with the authority to spread his word. Rejecting the teachings of the Church (which are the teachings of Christ ) and the Sacraments (all of which were instituted by Christ)is a mortal sin which by you separate yourself from God which means you have rejected his love. Our salvation is in Christ and the way to Christ is to be in full communion with his Church.

Yes, I’ve heard this before. So basically you’re argument is that we really don’t need Christ, instead we just need the Catholic Church and rituals. But the rationale used is ultimately that Christ bascially IS the Catholic Church, despite that “Christianity” encompasses much more than just the Catholic Church.

With regard to your comments to Pryority7 you might well be right about 90% but whatever percentage you pick it relates ONLY to those who are saved. Nobody is in Purgatory who is not saved. The condemned go immediately to Hell.
My understanding is that there will be a sort of free will in Heaven but there is no free will upon death to choose God once you realise that you are to go to Hell. Your choice of destination is made while you are still alive. It is fixed upon your death. No second chance exists after you die.

That makes no sense. If you are indeed saved then there is no use for purgatory. Christ died for your sins, right? Sins absolved, right?

I’m thinking the concept of purgatory was intended as a concept to address exactly the problem of people “outside” the church. It’s almost as if the church is embracing a concept of karma, which is actually pretty cool.

Why does it seem to give some folks around here some sense of smug satisfaction that some people are going to hell? That’s the impression I get.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Pryority7:

Yes, I am saying that there are no second chances after death. Hebrews 9:27 is clear. It is destined for us to die once and after that comes judgement. Our ability to choose is not taken away after death. It is consummated…solidified to the state we chose while still alive on earth. If a person chooses evil and rejects all that is good, all that is of God, that person is choosing to reject the beauty that God made him to be. Free will is a risk, and that risk involved the created person in God’s image to reject the source of His life. To reject life is to choose death…spiritual death. The damned are in Hell because they don’t WANT GOD. They don’t want to do what it takes to be in Heaven…deny themselves, die to themselves, their sin, their selfishness. They need that because in essence, that becomes their god in place of the True God. Man by nature is a worshipper. If the true God is rejected, other gods must be worshipped (money, power, sex, etc). Hell is the everlasting death of that sin. The hardened sinner will not want to let that go…WILL NOT want to let it go. That is the essence of Hell. For God to have the unsaved go to Heaven anyway is like dragging a child kicking and screaming to a place he does not want to go. To go against their will. Where is free will there?
You sound like you don’t want anybody to be in Hell, but Jesus spoke more about Hell than anybody in the Bible. Most of what we know about the subject came from His lips! The Cross of
Christ is a mockery if the most unrepentant and evil people in the word who die in that state still go to Heaven against their will of course!

You make some good points. I agree that those choosing something other than God choosing it above God will result in hell. And I’m certainly not saying that people who don’t want to go to Heaven will be forced or even allowed to.

Yes, He did speak more about it, but it’s descriptors and concept has certainly evolved throughout the centuries. My understanding is that Gahenna, for instance, was a big garbage dump outside the city that they burned, and it often burned for months at a time, seemingly forever! It was used as a metaphorical point of reference to send home the concept of how bad one would be outside the presence of God.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Hebrews 9:27 is clear.

Perhaps, but it seems to be half of a sentence, which would imply that one must read it along with 9:28 to get the full meaning.

I could read 9:28 in the same fashion and completely reason away the need for the church.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

ReformedCatholic:

Perhaps, but it seems to be half of a sentence, which would imply that one must read it along with 9:28 to get the full meaning.

I could read 9:28 in the same fashion and completely reason away the need for the church.

Who wrote Hebrews, anyway?

 

[thistle]

ReformedCatholic:

Who wrote Hebrews, anyway?

Who the author is has long been disputed but because of the reference to Timothy it suggests connections to the circle of Paul and his assistants.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

thistle:

Who the author is has long been disputed but because of the reference to Timothy it suggests connections to the circle of Paul and his assistants.

Thanks.

 

[udral]

What doesn’t make any sense to me is how it’s so black and white. A person can love God, can be a good person, but at the same time can persist in some behaviors that you call mortal sin.

The way you guys have set it up seems that you’re either 100% perfect and go to heaven, or you persist in one imperfection and go to hell. This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Why can’t there be differnet stages of “separation from God”? Why must it be either total union or total separation?

What if a person is 99% good but persists in one “mortal sin” without repenting? What if that person spends most of his time doing charitable works, contributing to society, performing other various works of mercy?

How can there ever be a total absence of God anyway, God has to sustain sometheing in order for it to exist.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

udral:

What doesn’t make any sense to me is how it’s so black and white. A person can love God, can be a good person, but at the same time can persist in some behaviors that you call mortal sin.

The way you guys have set it up seems that you’re either 100% perfect and go to heaven, or you persist in one imperfection and go to hell. This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Why can’t there be differnet stages of “separation from God”? Why must it be either total union or total separation?

What if a person is 99% good but persists in one “mortal sin” without repenting? What if that person spends most of his time doing charitable works, contributing to society, performing other various works of mercy?

How can there ever be a total absence of God anyway, God has to sustain sometheing in order for it to exist.

Exactly my point. I don’t understand it either. I think it has something to do with the need for absolutism to sustain a reliance on organized religion or something. I’m not sure.

I believe there are stages of “separation,” but I have no idea how to explain it.

 

[Gerrygarvin]

I’m sort of confused about why conservative Catholics argue against this. Doesn’t the prayer go

“save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who most need your mercy”

 

[Nicene]

Gerrygarvin:

I’m sort of confused about why conservative Catholics argue against this. Doesn’t the prayer go

“save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who most need your mercy”

Yes the prayer is: Oh My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, but help especially those most in need of thy mercy.

The key word is “us”, meaning those on earth. You aren’t saying, Oh my Jesus, forgive “those in hell their” their sins, save “them” from the fires of hell (If the prayer were specifying those already in hell).

In saying “us”, we mean “us”, those on earth and/or the church militant. It’s a prayer and call to repent and rely on Christs mercy.

St. Faustina’s dialogues with Jesus are well worth the time to read. I would highly encourage it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[thistle]

Nicene:

Yes the prayer is: Oh My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, but help especially those most in need of thy mercy.

The key word is “us”, meaning those on earth. You aren’t saying, Oh my Jesus, forgive “those in hell their” their sins, save “them” from the fires of hell (If the prayer were specifying those already in hell).

In saying “us”, we mean “us”, those on earth and/or the church militant. It’s a prayer and call to repent and rely on Christs mercy.

St. Faustina’s dialogues with Jesus are well worth the time to read. I would highly encourage it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

I totally agree with you. The prayer is for those on earth.
Once in Hell there is no escape.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Gerrygarvin:

I’m sort of confused about why conservative Catholics argue against this. Doesn’t the prayer go

“save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who most need your mercy”

That’s a good point.

 

[Pryority7]

ReformedCatholic, I see that there are issues you have with the Catholic Church, church organization, ritual, purgatory, etc…

That’s okay, but I would lovingly challenge you to really research these things, especially purgatory. Purgatory is not further additional cleansing of sin to add to the cross by us. That would be a system of salvation by works, and that I completely reject, just like you do.
But purgatory is NOT that. Purgatory is the completion of what God is doing with us now to prepare us for Heaven. He is sanctifying us daily as we submit our wills to Him. Purgatory is not us paying for our sins, it is us being removed from the presence of sin, notably the sin we personally struggle with. This sin is already paid for by Christ, of course, but that once and for all sacrifice is applied to us by means of His daily outpouring of love for us. This is consumated at purgatory, which is more of a state than a place. Purgatory is actually the beginning of Heaven, Heaven’s orientation room so to speak. We have sin natures that we will always struggle with until the day we die. The blood of christ cleanses us from all sin. Purgatory is merely the final stage of that. It’s a life long process. Purgatory is for the saved only, that’s why its’ the beginning of Heaven.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Pryority7:

ReformedCatholic, I see that there are issues you have with the Catholic Church, church organization, ritual, purgatory, etc…

That’s okay, but I would lovingly challenge you to really research these things, especially purgatory. Purgatory is not further additional cleansing of sin to add to the cross by us. That would be a system of salvation by works, and that I completely reject, just like you do.
But purgatory is NOT that. Purgatory is the completion of what God is doing with us now to prepare us for Heaven. He is sanctifying us daily as we submit our wills to Him. Purgatory is not us paying for our sins, it is us being removed from the presence of sin, notably the sin we personally struggle with. This sin is already paid for by Christ, of course, but that once and for all sacrifice is applied to us by means of His daily outpouring of love for us. This is consumated at purgatory, which is more of a state than a place. Purgatory is actually the beginning of Heaven, Heaven’s orientation room so to speak. We have sin natures that we will always struggle with until the day we die. The blood of christ cleanses us from all sin. Purgatory is merely the final stage of that. It’s a life long process. Purgatory is for the saved only, that’s why its’ the beginning of Heaven.

Now that is the best explanation of purgatory that I have seen. That makes sense. Thank you for that.

 

[TheRaiders]

ReformedCatholic:

Yes, I’ve heard this before. So basically you’re argument is that we really don’t need Christ, instead we just need the Catholic Church and rituals. But the rationale used is ultimately that Christ bascially IS the Catholic Church, despite that “Christianity” encompasses much more than just the Catholic Church.

That makes no sense. If you are indeed saved then there is no use for purgatory. Christ died for your sins, right? Sins absolved, right?

I’m thinking the concept of purgatory was intended as a concept to address exactly the problem of people “outside” the church. It’s almost as if the church is embracing a concept of karma, which is actually pretty cool.

Why does it seem to give some folks around here some sense of smug satisfaction that some people are going to hell? That’s the impression I get.

The impression I get from you is that you get a smug satisfaction from saying anything controversial, and testing people. But you are just searching for answers to questions in your heart. The deposit of faith comes from the Catholic Church, and if some other Christian church out there has enough of it for salvation then that is great, but remember where the source of it is and where all of it resides and you should promote everyone coming to know it.
The people who are “good people” by today’s standards (never been to jail, never been in a fight, never been a satan worshiper, work a steady job) may get to heaven, who knows. I’d say most of those people, though, are no “better” than the ruffian who’s been in countless fights and maybe even robbed a bank, but comes to know Jesus and changes his heart. That other “good person” was a product of their environment (being raised in a ethical environment) and mild temperment which is genetic. Why would God judge based on those things. What if they smugly never gave thanks to God for their good life? So there must be more to life than being a good person. Jesus talked about the lowly and the sinners. These people NEED the church and some seek it out. Some are saved. The lukewarm “good” people of which you speak God said He’d spit them out of His mouth. Actually, I believe he said He’d vomit them.
So these good people, who are maybe even Christian by name will face just as much judgement as the rest of us rabble.
In the last few hundred years Christians have resided outside the Church in mass numbers, but very few of them openly reject the Catholic Church. It is their leaders, driven by pride, and fear of loosing their position that sometimes lead the rest of the Protestants astray. The average “reformed Chrisitan” doesn’t know they are rejecting anything worthwhile. Some only know that they love Jesus, and that their pastor makes fun of Catholics every Sunday. But if someone knowingly rejects Christ’s church, God knows what’s in there hearts. Maybe they did it out of ignorance of what catholicism truly is. I’d say that is the case many times, and it seems to be the case with you Mr. Reformed. Maybe they did it out of pride, or lack of faith. That is where damnation may come in, but that’s up for God to decide, not us. The Church and its Sacraments are all we have and they are things Jesus himself left us. To promote denying these things is dangerous for other people’s souls. Why can’t you just look at the beauty of the faith you inherited and throw away your pride? The choices you make will drag down other’s too (your kids, your friends, and fellow catholics).
Patrick

 

[ReformedCatholic]

TheRaiders:

The impression I get from you is that you get a smug satisfaction from saying anything controversial, and testing people. But you are just searching for answers to questions in your heart. The deposit of faith comes from the Catholic Church, and if some other Christian church out there has enough of it for salvation then that is great, but remember where the source of it is and where all of it resides and you should promote everyone coming to know it.
The people who are “good people” by today’s standards (never been to jail, never been in a fight, never been a satan worshiper, work a steady job) may get to heaven, who knows. I’d say most of those people, though, are no “better” than the ruffian who’s been in countless fights and maybe even robbed a bank, but comes to know Jesus and changes his heart. That other “good person” was a product of their environment (being raised in a ethical environment) and mild temperment which is genetic. Why would God judge based on those things. What if they smugly never gave thanks to God for their good life? So there must be more to life than being a good person. Jesus talked about the lowly and the sinners. These people NEED the church and some seek it out. Some are saved. The lukewarm “good” people of which you speak God said He’d spit them out of His mouth. Actually, I believe he said He’d vomit them.
So these good people, who are maybe even Christian by name will face just as much judgement as the rest of us rabble.
In the last few hundred years Christians have resided outside the Church in mass numbers, but very few of them openly reject the Catholic Church. It is their leaders, driven by pride, and fear of loosing their position that sometimes lead the rest of the Protestants astray. The average “reformed Chrisitan” doesn’t know they are rejecting anything worthwhile. Some only know that they love Jesus, and that their pastor makes fun of Catholics every Sunday. But if someone knowingly rejects Christ’s church, God knows what’s in there hearts. Maybe they did it out of ignorance of what catholicism truly is. I’d say that is the case many times, and it seems to be the case with you Mr. Reformed. Maybe they did it out of pride, or lack of faith. That is where damnation may come in, but that’s up for God to decide, not us. The Church and its Sacraments are all we have and they are things Jesus himself left us. To promote denying these things is dangerous for other people’s souls. Why can’t you just look at the beauty of the faith you inherited and throw away your pride? The choices you make will drag down other’s too (your kids, your friends, and fellow catholics).
Patrick

Thank you for your perspective. You make some interesting and valid points.

I do believe the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, and I believe that salvation exists within Her. It is a very beautiful faith. I just have some issues with certain aspects of what has “evolved” within it over the centuries.

The good people I’m refering to are a little more “good” than some to which you refer, but I get your point. It is not out of pride that I question, but out of a desire to truly understand the faith. My only satisfaction is when I acheive some insight during the course of these conversations.

Ultimately, I think Heaven is intended for everyone, but I do not believe everyone will get there. You’re right though, God only knows who will get there.

 

[TheRaiders]

Reformed,
Well said. After I wrote that post I realized it was a bit too harsh on you, especially after I read your reply to another person. But it was too late to edit it (there’s a time limit).
I won’t pretend to be someone who can always put aside doubt and accept what the Church believes. It is thinking about these things and discussing them in serious debate that lead the Church to deeper and deeper understanding over the last 2000 years. Keep it up.
Patrick