Can you pray for those in hell?

[thistle]

The prayers are not wasted because you don’t know if they are in hell. I believe God makes those prayers ‘retroactive’ & applies them to the person before they die. This gives them a chance to repent before their final abode!

We don’t know what specific individuals are in Hell but we do know with certainty that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell forever. That is the infallible Church teaching supported by what Christ said in Scripture.
God does not retroactively give them the chance to repent. That is nonsense. I would be very interested in you showing me such a Church teaching.

 

[truetofaith]

We don’t know what specific individuals are in Hell but we do know with certainty that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell forever. That is the infallible Church teaching supported by what Christ said in Scripture.
God does not retroactively give them the chance to repent. That is nonsense. I would be very interested in you showing me such a Church teaching.

It’s not nonsense. It is more foolish to say God applies your prayers to someone else! How does He pick the soul to get the “wasted” prayers?

I’m not saying the prayers are applied to the person after they are dead…I say God hears the prayers that are said, years before the person dies and applies them before the person’s death. They still may or may not help the person.

 

[seagal]

It’s not nonsense. It is more foolish to say God applies your prayers to someone else! How does He pick the soul to get the “wasted” prayers?

I’m not saying the prayers are applied to the person after they are dead…I say God hears the prayers that are said, years before the person dies and applies them before the person’s death. They still may or may not help the person.

It’s certainly possible. God is after all outside of time, so whenever you pray for someone it’s always “now” for God. But I don’t think it’s foolish to think that God could apply the prayers to another soul. He would know who was is most need.

 

[WT1]

It’s not nonsense. It is more foolish to say God applies your prayers to someone else! How does He pick the soul to get the “wasted” prayers?

The same way he applies general prayers for the souls in purgatory. Praying for the dead is as old as the church and assuming God wouldn’t know exactly how to apply those prayers is pretty presumptive.

 

[thistle]

It’s not nonsense. It is more foolish to say God applies your prayers to someone else! How does He pick the soul to get the “wasted” prayers?

I’m not saying the prayers are applied to the person after they are dead…I say God hears the prayers that are said, years before the person dies and applies them before the person’s death. They still may or may not help the person.

The thread topic is about praying for those in Hell. Prayers are completely wasted on those who are in Hell.
Whether God directs these prayers to those not in Hell (i.e. those still alive or those who are dead but in Purgatory) is not what this thread is about and the Church has no teaching on it.

 

[alphawoman]

Sorry DaddyGirl, but this is wishful thinking. The people in Hell will not accept God’s help, and He will not force himself on anyone who does not want him. As a result of this, the people in Hell are there permanently by their own choice, not because God forces them in there.

OP, you cannot pray for the people in Hell, they are beyond help. However, as we cannot know who is and isn’t in Hell this side of eternity, you can pray for any individual, no matter how evil they may have been. We can pray for Hitler if we want, or Mou, or Stalin, anyone. If they are in in Purgatory, they will welcome your prayers; if they are in Heaven, they will given them to God. If they are in Hell, then God will put them towards something beneficial.

Logically, the state of the individual being in hell can be a counterfactual scenario that is prevented by God’s acceptance of future prayers for the affected individual. That is what is meant when we say that, because God exists outside time, prayers can influence people’s final resting place. God is able to measure out blessings and mercy in a temporally nonlinear fashion, potentially dispensing mercies before they are offered.

It is possible that, through the prayers of people through time and other mechanisms unknown to us at God’s disposal, there is no human soul in hell. The Church acknowledges that don’t know how God judges. Hell can remain a place of eternal separation from God without that option being exercised against humans. We don’t know the head count there. I hope that even the worst sinners are able to repent sincerely and avoid eternal separation from God. They need our prayers most.

 

[TK421]

Prayers for the dead that are not needed because they are in Heaven or Hell will be accepted as prayers for the those in purgatory that don’t have an intercessor. No prayer goes to waste.

Prayers are never needed in the absolute sense (God doesn’t require our prayers to distribute his graces) but in the moral sense (it is fitting for God to act through those channels).

Maybe, the charity of the just is a torment for the wicked. That even those on Earth - so far yet removed from the unspeakable beauty & selflessness of Heaven - pray for a person that happens to be in hell, is a punishment upon that person in hell, since that person - in turn - can desire nothing but the damnation of the very person that is praying for them, since they are removed from all love.

Praying for a person already in Heaven is an integral part of the Beatific Vision, and is a reward for that person in Heaven.

So even in Heaven or hell, prayers on Earth serve a moral purpose in providing for that person what they deserve.

Our Lady has asked for us to pray for all sinners, so that they do not join those who she already revealed to be in the Lake of Fire.

 

[alphawoman]

God is not a vending machine. To pray such prayers and think that they automatically free someone from damnation is hubris. We can pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet a thousand times for someone but if they were obstinate unto death in their denial of God’s mercy they cannot be saved. We can pray for ourselves but if we are stuck in sin, unrepentant, and do not avail ourselves of God’s Mercy we, too, will not be saved.

Wow. You need to trust in God more. To assume that prayers are useless is to accept a despairing and fatalistic view of life.

How do you think any of us ever found our way to praying and living a Catholic life? It certainly wasn’t through our own merits! It originated in grace from God. God gave himself to the world – a gift of INFINITE value. Do you really think that infinite grace can’t overcome finite human sin? How God ultimately chooses to allocate his mercy and love is unknown to us. Why discourage prayer when we are called as Catholics to be hopeful?

The Church teaches that those who die in unrepentant mortal sin are destined for hell. However, it is conceivable that God, in His omniscience and omnipotence, channels mercy and grace to individuals such that they are able to repent fully even if in an unfortunate state of mortal sin at the cusp of life and death.

The lesson we should learn from the Church is to live God’s commandments in our own lives and pray ardently for the salvation of humanity. Our finite little brains can’t comprehend the splendour of God, so let’s not impose any arbitrary limitations on His potential mercy.

 

[alphawoman]

The thread topic is about praying for those in Hell. Prayers are completely wasted on those who are in Hell.
Whether God directs these prayers to those not in Hell (i.e. those still alive or those who are dead but in Purgatory) is not what this thread is about and the Church has no teaching on it.

We have no idea the mechanisms through which prayers are used by God. Why do you presume that damnation is a foregone conclusion?

 

[alphawoman]

It’s certainly possible. God is after all outside of time, so whenever you pray for someone it’s always “now” for God. But I don’t think it’s foolish to think that God could apply the prayers to another soul. He would know who was is most need.

Yes! It’s not like God’s power is restricted by the throughput of human prayer or existence. This is, after all, the creator of EVERYTHING who we are taking about. Trust him, pray!

 

[thistle]

We have no idea the mechanisms through which prayers are used by God. Why do you presume that damnation is a foregone conclusion?

Damnation is a CERTAINTY for those who die in a state of mortal sin.
Whether a person dies in a state of mortal sin or state of grace is the free choice of that person. God gave us freewill. WE determine our own destination.
This is the infallible teaching of the Church.

 

[seagal]

Damnation is a CERTAINTY for those who die in a state of mortal sin.
Whether a person dies in a state of mortal sin or state of grace is the free choice of that person. God gave us freewill. WE determine our own destination.
This is the infallible teaching of the Church.

The point is WE DON’T KNOW the state of the soul of the person who has died. So it’s always a good idea to pray for EVERYONE. God will sort it out.

 

[thistle]

The point is WE DON’T KNOW the state of the soul of the person who has died. So it’s always a good idea to pray for EVERYONE. God will sort it out.

I completely agree with you. My point is that whoever is in Hell is there forever and prayers are wasted on them. Prayers can only benefit the living and those in Purgatory.

 

[truetofaith]

The thread topic is about praying for those in Hell. Prayers are completely wasted on those who are in Hell.
Whether God directs these prayers to those not in Hell (i.e. those still alive or those who are dead but in Purgatory) is not what this thread is about and the Church has no teaching on it.

As most threads turn out the Topic has expanded from the original post…

…but to answer the orig. ques…NO you can’t pray for those in hell !

 

[alphawoman]

Damnation is a CERTAINTY for those who die in a state of mortal sin.
Whether a person dies in a state of mortal sin or state of grace is the free choice of that person. God gave us freewill. WE determine our own destination.
This is the infallible teaching of the Church.

Yes, we have ownership of our decisions, but grace can guide our decisions and be injected into our lives non linearly by God; for instance, through the prayer and fasting of others, or through God’s own outpouring of grace. (I would accept arguments that God’s grace subsumes third party graces, as He is the source of all grace.)

I think we are arguing at cross purposes. You are stating that souls that die in a state of mortal sin are sent to hell. Correct, that is Church teaching. I am arguing that the (name removed by moderator)uts into our time-bound decisions need not coincide temporally with our decisions to affect us and our final resting place. It is entirely possible that, though such a penalty exists for mortal sin, it is never actually exercised due to an outpouring of grace upon individuals in their final moment. A concrete example might help.

My yet unborn great-great-great-great-grandchild might pray for my hell-bound soul long after my death physically transpires. God, existing in the eternal now, could take those prayers that are in the future to mortal me (but in the present to God) and channel them back to me to inspire a full confession and/or change of behaviour prior to my death. In this way, two scenarios emerge:

1. The (counterfactual) control scenario: I am hell-bound based on my decisions and receive no third party prayers.
2. The (realized) treatment scenario: I was hell-bound, but third party prayers are used to elicit a favourable behaviour change in me that allows me to avoid hell.

Scenario 2 transpires, scenario 1 never occurs. This example is both logically feasible and consistent with Church teaching.

 

[alphawoman]

As most threads turn out the Topic has expanded from the original post…

…but to answer the orig. ques…NO you can’t pray for those in hell !

Sure you can. I’m doing it right now. What you’re debating is whether prayers for those in hell are efficacious or not.

 

[mikekle]

The souls in hell have made their choice, for eternity, and cannot be helped by our prayers or charity.

So, free will is taken away at some point then…right?

 

[seagal]

So, free will is taken away at some point then…right?

Not in the way I think you mean. Our whole life is a journey and along the journey we make choices. At the end of the journey there is no more need to make choices, we’re at our final destination.

 

[truetofaith]

Sure you can. I’m doing it right now. What you’re debating is whether prayers for those in hell are efficacious or not.

I’m getting tired of repeating myself. If someone’s in hell, you can pray for them, but you can’t get them out of there.

I said many posts ago…God looks into the future & hears those prayers & applies them to the same person before they are dead and sent to their reward or punishment.

If nobody understands this, too bad, I can’t say it any clearer.

 

[mdgspencer]

Posts here show great insight.
We haven’t the least idea who is in hell and who isn’t there. It is an act of love and faith to pray for whoever has died, whether we didn’t know them or we knew them, including our friends and family members. Saint Paul said the greatest virtue is love. To pray for the dead is a such a virtuous act. We all pray for things we don’t get and shouldn’t get–but even then our prayers can be of benefit to our souls.
To pray for someone in hell is no use. An old saying is that posted over the gate to hell are the words “abandon all hope, those who enter here.” But we don’t know who is there, and I expect we will be surprised at who we will find in heaven, if we earn that reward from God.