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ralphinal
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Yes. Sorry. I was mixed up on that
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R
ralphinal
Guest
A deathbed conversion is not the norm. Certainly that is possible. We should not count on it, though.Well the Bible does say that faith without works is dead. So I would say that that normally I agree that is a contradiction.
However, I do believe in the possibility of deathbed conversions. For example the thief on the cross never had the possibility of growing into “doing what He taught”.
The important point is that the good works start on day 1.01 as it were.
Eternal life does not start with one performing some grand and glorious good deed that so impresses God that He grants him eternal life. Nor is it a matter of God grading on some curve where the relative goodness of my life must be above some unknown cutoff point.
I agree that it is not about a grand deed to get his attention. And I agree that it is not about God grading on a curve. However, if you do not do anything, you do not have faith. It is that clear. Jesus even said that not everyone who calls out Lord, Lord shall be saved but only those who do the will of the Father.
THis is where Protestants and Catholics differ. We will gladly say that faith without works is dead and embrace the implications. Non-Catholics are not so quick to do so. We MUST act as Jesus commanded, otherwise we do not have faith. It is faith that works through love that compells us, not the reward of heaven.
W
With_Questions
Guest
We agree hereA deathbed conversion is not the norm. Certainly that is possible. We should not count on it, though.
We agree here except that I would add one word to this sentenceI agree that it is not about a grand deed to get his attention. And I agree that it is not about God grading on a curve. However, if you do not do anything, you do not have faith. It is that clear. Jesus even said that not everyone who calls out Lord, Lord shall be saved but only those who do the will of the Father.
However, normally, if you do not do anything, you do not have faith.
I am not sure of this. I have always believed that faith without works is dead myself. So have all the churches I have attended.THis is where Protestants and Catholics differ. We will gladly say that faith without works is dead and embrace the implications. Non-Catholics are not so quick to do so.
In fact I will come out and say that the phrase “faith alone” makes me a little uncomfortable. I would prefer that the phrase be clarified as “living faith alone” to eliminate possible confusion (I think it means that anyway). But that’s me I suppose.
Where we do differ is that we would never answer this question with a laundry list of things to do. The laundry list muddies the waters simply because this list of things to do does not start the process of eternal life.
Our Muslim friends here need to know what to do to get started. That is simply repentance and faith in Christ.
Once they get started, they will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and have a completely new nature. Then the laundry list of things to do take on a totally different meaning. They have the new nature in Christ and can begin to work on being conformed to His image and leading a life of greater obedience to Christ.
Again with the exception of deathbed conversions and maybe some other boundary cases I have not thought of, I agree.We MUST act as Jesus commanded, otherwise we do not have faith. It is faith that works through love that compells us, not the reward of heaven.
F
Fisher
Guest
Carefully notice James 2:21, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the** ROOT **of Abraham’s faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham’s faith. We read in Romans 4:3, “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Paul doesn’t mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Yet, James declares in James 2:21, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown at least old enough to speak clearly to his father (Genesis 22:7). ** James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person’s life to show it. ** BUT, **James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved–they aren’t! Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us…” **Well the Bible does say that faith without works is dead. So I would say that that normally I agree that is a contradiction.
B
brkn1
Guest
It is God that does all the work to bring a chosen sheep home to Heaven. Salvation “is the work of God.” (John 6:29)
The Great Shepherd does not lose any of the sheep that the Father gives Him.
Jesus is the “last Adam” Who “was made a quickening Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45) A quickening Spirit makes a dead spirit alive.
“…Except a man be born of (water) and of the (Spirit), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
The (water) is Jesus as the “living water”, which Jesus offered to the Samaritan woman at the well.
The (Spirit) is the Holy Spirit, Who makes a sinner, dead in sin, to recognize that he is spiritually dead, hopeless, and helpless. This causes a sinner to thirst for the only cure, which makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to then point that sinner, in true belief of, and to the Lamb of God (Jesus), the Living Water, Who came to take away the sin of the world.
It is all of the Will of God that a sinner gets born again by God’s Grace. Man can not effect his own salvation by any of his own works, or he could glory in his doing some works to save himself.
To God alone goes all the glory! Praise Him forever!
The Great Shepherd does not lose any of the sheep that the Father gives Him.
Jesus is the “last Adam” Who “was made a quickening Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:45) A quickening Spirit makes a dead spirit alive.
“…Except a man be born of (water) and of the (Spirit), he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
The (water) is Jesus as the “living water”, which Jesus offered to the Samaritan woman at the well.
The (Spirit) is the Holy Spirit, Who makes a sinner, dead in sin, to recognize that he is spiritually dead, hopeless, and helpless. This causes a sinner to thirst for the only cure, which makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to then point that sinner, in true belief of, and to the Lamb of God (Jesus), the Living Water, Who came to take away the sin of the world.
It is all of the Will of God that a sinner gets born again by God’s Grace. Man can not effect his own salvation by any of his own works, or he could glory in his doing some works to save himself.
To God alone goes all the glory! Praise Him forever!
F
Fisher
Guest
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man** be born of water **and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Water speaks of physical (or natural) birth
In Genesis 1:20, we read of the first mention of life, and this life comes from water, “…Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life…”
Water speaks to us of the word of God
In Ephesians 5:26, concerning the church we read, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.” The Psalmist in Psalm 119:9 writes “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.” Reading the Bible has a cleansing effect on the reader. Christians would do well to sit and read, study and meditate together on the word of God.
Water speaks to us of the purification of the Christian
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Water speaks to us of spiritual life
In Genesis 2 we read of the perfect conditions of the garden of Eden. This garden was watered by a river (v10). Without water, the garden would have died, as plants, animals and humans cannot survive without water. It seems to me that this river is a beautiful picture of the life that Christ gives to His children through the Spirit of God. Consider the following verses that speak of this:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
This water is the everlasting life that we enjoy now in Christ. That’s why the scripture says in 1 John 5:12 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” Without water there cannot be life: Without the Lord Jesus Christ there cannot be eternal life. It’s interesting to me that the greatest expanse of water in the world today is the sea. The sea in scripture is a fascinating subject, and one we can’t go into here. However, I would encourage you to look at the references and you will see that the sea often speaks to us of restlessness and tribulation (See Matthew 14:22-33, Mark 6:47-52, John 6:15-21). Note, in all of these passages, the seas were calmed by the Lord Jesus. When we follow these thoughts through, we read those lovely words in Revelation 21:1.
Revelation 21:1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
Water speaks of physical (or natural) birth
In Genesis 1:20, we read of the first mention of life, and this life comes from water, “…Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life…”
Water speaks to us of the word of God
In Ephesians 5:26, concerning the church we read, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.” The Psalmist in Psalm 119:9 writes “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.” Reading the Bible has a cleansing effect on the reader. Christians would do well to sit and read, study and meditate together on the word of God.
Water speaks to us of the purification of the Christian
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Water speaks to us of spiritual life
In Genesis 2 we read of the perfect conditions of the garden of Eden. This garden was watered by a river (v10). Without water, the garden would have died, as plants, animals and humans cannot survive without water. It seems to me that this river is a beautiful picture of the life that Christ gives to His children through the Spirit of God. Consider the following verses that speak of this:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given: because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
This water is the everlasting life that we enjoy now in Christ. That’s why the scripture says in 1 John 5:12 “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” Without water there cannot be life: Without the Lord Jesus Christ there cannot be eternal life. It’s interesting to me that the greatest expanse of water in the world today is the sea. The sea in scripture is a fascinating subject, and one we can’t go into here. However, I would encourage you to look at the references and you will see that the sea often speaks to us of restlessness and tribulation (See Matthew 14:22-33, Mark 6:47-52, John 6:15-21). Note, in all of these passages, the seas were calmed by the Lord Jesus. When we follow these thoughts through, we read those lovely words in Revelation 21:1.
Revelation 21:1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
R
ralphinal
Guest
I don’t disagree.We agree here
We agree here except that I would add one word to this sentence
I am not sure of this. I have always believed that faith without works is dead myself. So have all the churches I have attended.
In fact I will come out and say that the phrase “faith alone” makes me a little uncomfortable. I would prefer that the phrase be clarified as “living faith alone” to eliminate possible confusion (I think it means that anyway). But that’s me I suppose.
Where we do differ is that we would never answer this question with a laundry list of things to do. The laundry list muddies the waters simply because this list of things to do does not start the process of eternal life.
Our Muslim friends here need to know what to do to get started. That is simply repentance and faith in Christ.
Once they get started, they will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and have a completely new nature. Then the laundry list of things to do take on a totally different meaning. They have the new nature in Christ and can begin to work on being conformed to His image and leading a life of greater obedience to Christ.
Again with the exception of deathbed conversions and maybe some other boundary cases I have not thought of, I agree.
S
Steadfast
Guest
A very good and Evangelical answer, Ralph.well, it is not up to me, is it.
R
ralphinal
Guest
ThanksA very good and Evangelical answer, Ralph.
Sometimes, I wish it was up to me…
S
Steadfast
Guest
I often act like I want it to be up to me but in my better, more recollected moments I realize that I would make a total mess of it and that it’s best just the way it is…Thanks
Sometimes, I wish it was up to me…
R
ralphinal
Guest
I think you are correct. It is better the way that it is.I often act like I want it to be up to me but in my better, more recollected moments I realize that I would make a total mess of it and that it’s best just the way it is…
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