Can your Child be too religious? Time article

[3DOCTORS]

No, OCD and schizo-affective are different things, though I’m sure it would be possible for one person to have both. OCD is an anxiety disorder, schizo-affective is a personality disorder.

 

[Cadian]

That was the point of the article though… that if a child’s religious practices seem obsessive, it may be an indication of an underlying disorder that should be treated. It certainly doesn’t bash religion!

Actually they wouldn’t. Not at all. I explained this in the other thread started about this article, but there is a huge difference between extreme sanctity and holiness such as that of Sts Therese Dominic Savio etc and the kind of mental illness this article is talking about. I know because I had to watch my brother suffer though exactly what this article is talking about. It got so bad that through his OCD/Scrupulosity type issues he became catatonic, he was so terrified that any and every thing he might be doing would be sinful that he could not bring himself to do anything, even get up to go to the bathroom or eat. Of course, this was all part of a manifestation of deep mental illness, he was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and is on extremely strong medication for which he needs to go in to the hospital every week for blood tests to even be able to function at the level he currently does, which is still without being able to be a self-supporting adult. This article is spot on and should not be bashed or ignored in any way. There is a huge difference between religiousity and sanctity and the kind of mental illness this article is talking about which can manifest itself through religious expression.

This is the quote that invalidated the whole article from being helpful to be a disguise for those that want to crush religion. This is the quote which speaks loudly as to the author’s and the “Pyschological Community’s” understanding of religion:

If your child switches to a different style of religion, be tolerant If your children are doing well in other areas of their life, don’t panic, says Hathaway. Unless you feel strongly that they are morally wrong, take this shift in stride.

The use of the “T” word is telling. These people would sacrifice religion at the alter of “Tolerance”.

There is only one truth. If a child is lead away from it. It is the parents responsibility to lead them back. NOT be “tolerant”. How I have grown to loathe that word.

I know first hand the dangers of OCD and Scrupulosity. I can tell you from my own experience that this article is pure Hokem with regards to the approaches being presented. Of course there is a grain of truth in it but, that is how the Evil one works. Take a truth and twist it. Do not be fooled by this tactic. This artilce is not as “well intentioned” as you both seem to think

If it the article was well intentioned the FOCUS would not have been on “religion” as the subject but on OCD and obsessive behavior. Obessing over religion is a symptom but, you don’t get that from the article. Again this is the liberal media spinning to suit their agenda. “Tolerant”?

:knight1:

 

[3DOCTORS]

Yes, I would say that “tolerant” isn’t the correct approach - but diplomacy is key. You can voice your objections but try to keep the communication open. Ask questions in a non-threatening manner about why the new religion appeals, and LISTEN without retorting no matter how tempted you may be. Stay calm. And do your homework with reliable apologetics materials, awaiting a teachable moment when you might be able to present that information to your kid. Heated arguments are only counterproductive. :slapfight:

 

[thewanderer]

This is the quote that invalidated the whole article from being helpful to be a disguise for those that want to crush religion. This is the quote which speaks loudly as to the author’s and the “Pyschological Community’s” understanding of religion:

The use of the “T” word is telling. These people would sacrifice religion at the alter of “Tolerance”.

There is only one truth. If a child is lead away from it. It is the parents responsibility to lead them back. NOT be “tolerant”. How I have grown to loathe that word.

I know first hand the dangers of OCD and Scrupulosity. I can tell you from my own experience that this article is pure Hokem with regards to the approaches being presented. Of course there is a grain of truth in it but, that is how the Evil one works. Take a truth and twist it. Do not be fooled by this tactic. This artilce is not as “well intentioned” as you both seem to think

If it the article was well intentioned the FOCUS would not have been on “religion” as the subject but on OCD and obsessive behavior. Obessing over religion is a symptom but, you don’t get that from the article. Again this is the liberal media spinning to suit their agenda. “Tolerant”?

:knight1:

Let me get this straight, so because they used the word intolerent the whole article is bunk.

First off, the part you are complaining about says different *style *of religion, not different religion. Secondly, depending on what you mean by tolerent what problem is there with it? Especially depending on the age of the child (most of these mental illnesses start to develop in the late teens early twenties) there isn’t really much a parent can do about what religion their child practices at that age anyway. You can’t force a 19 year old to be Catholic.

This article is not just talking about OCD and scrupulosity, it is talking about a much deeper and more serious problem of a true mental illness. And this is a real problem for parents to look out for. Looking back, there were signs early on with my brother, but nobody realized it until his illness had already gotten much worse when it was impossible to miss. The earlier you catch it the more treatable it is. And you are trying to act as though this article has no worth based off of your own interpretation of one word in it. Unbelievable.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I agree the whole article shouldn’t be dismissed because of the “T-word.” But some of us have gotten burned out on hearing it the way it’s being used - and overused - these days. The poster to whom you are responding may be in that frame of mind at the moment. Be tolerant and cut her or him some slack, hm?

@ Cadian - try to take the “T-word” with a grain of salt and see if the article does indeed have some good to offer. Jesus Himself pointed out in the parable of the weeds and the wheat that sometimes you can’t always separate them until harvest time…

 

[thewanderer]

I agree the whole article shouldn’t be dismissed because of the “T-word.” But some of us have gotten burned out on hearing it the way it’s being used - and overused - these days. The poster to whom you are responding may be in that frame of mind at the moment. Be tolerant and cut her or him some slack, hm?

Yes, you are absolutely right. Thanks for calling me out on that.

 

[Cadian]

Let me get this straight, so because they used the word intolerent the whole article is bunk.

First off, the part you are complaining about says different *style *of religion, not different religion. Secondly, depending on what you mean by tolerent what problem is there with it? Especially depending on the age of the child (most of these mental illnesses start to develop in the late teens early twenties) there isn’t really much a parent can do about what religion their child practices at that age anyway. You can’t force a 19 year old to be Catholic.

This article is not just talking about OCD and scrupulosity, it is talking about a much deeper and more serious problem of a true mental illness. And this is a real problem for parents to look out for. Looking back, there were signs early on with my brother, but nobody realized it until his illness had already gotten much worse when it was impossible to miss. The earlier you catch it the more treatable it is. And you are trying to act as though this article has no worth based off of your own interpretation of one word in it. Unbelievable.

This article is part of the “boiling the frog” tactic used by people attempting to attack religion obfuscated behind something benign in this regards.

Again I fully understand the woes that come with OCD and scrupulocity. You didn’t address the fact that they did not need to highlight religion in the way the did in the article as oposed to talking about the root issue which is OCD. The obssesive religious behavior in this case is a symptom of the the OCD. The article really doesn’t read that way. This is a canard to make you think they are compassionate and tolerant when they are exactly the oposite. Religion is the problem to them not OCD. OCD is an excuse for them to attack religion. Using certain buzz words is telling. Tollerance is one of them.

I fully understand the dangers of scrupulosity. It cost me 28yrs of my life due to having no one to direct me otherwise. I feel for your brother. I do. But, I for one am not going to let people and organizations like the author and the publisher attempt to foist their agendas upon us and engage if further social re-engineering. :knight1:

 

[thewanderer]

This article is part of the “boiling the frog” tactic used by people attempting to attack religion obfuscated behind something benign in this regards.

I do not at all see how this article is an attack on religion, even with the “boiling the frog” type argument because this article makes a very clear distinction between healthy religious practices and unhealthy ones which are a sign of deeper mental issues.

Again I fully understand the woes that come with OCD and scrupulocity. You didn’t address the fact that they did not need to highlight religion in the way the did in the article as oposed to talking about the root issue which is OCD. The obssesive religious behavior in this case is a symptom of the the OCD. The article really doesn’t read that way. This is a canard to make you think they are compassionate and tolerant when they are exactly the oposite. Religion is the problem to them not OCD. OCD is an excuse for them to attack religion. Using certain buzz words is telling. Tollerance is one of them.

If the point of the article were to talk about OCD and scrupulosity in general, then you might have a point. However, when the point of the article is to spread awareness that sometimes the early signs of not just OCD and scrupulosity but severe mental illness comes through unhealthy religious practices then of course they are going to talk about it all specifically with respect to religion. This article was very careful to distinguish healthy from unhealthy religious practices, ‘buzzwords’ notwithstanding. Are some people going to misunderstand this article to mean that religion is bad? I do not at all doubt it. Does that mean this article was written with bad intent or with hostility against religion? not at all. It is trying to spread awareness of a very real problem while at the same time trying to make a distinction between problematic religious practices and healthy good religious practices.

I fully understand the dangers of scrupulosity. It cost me 28yrs of my life due to having no one to direct me otherwise. I feel for your brother. I do. But, I for one am not going to let people and organizations like the author and the publisher attempt to foist their agendas upon us and engage if further social re-engineering. :knight1:

I do not see any agenda in this post besides that of spreading awareness of some of the early warning signs of a very serious problem. That is an agenda I am willing to back 100% .

 

[anon1234567]

… is there something wrong with me? Instead of faith something in my head is possibly making me sick?

Don’t worry you can be devout and not have mental health problems but if you feel as though you are anxious a lot about things in general, or sinning or something else then yes it might be that counselling would help you to cope better with anxiety, depression or something else. I’ll just had that I only studied psychology for a year and I have similar issues to you.

This is the quote that invalidated the whole article from being helpful to be a disguise for those that want to crush religion. This is the quote which speaks loudly as to the author’s and the “Pyschological Community’s” understanding of religion:

The use of the “T” word is telling. These people would sacrifice religion at the alter of “Tolerance”.

There is only one truth. If a child is lead away from it. It is the parents responsibility to lead them back. NOT be “tolerant”. How I have grown to loathe that word.

I know first hand the dangers of OCD and Scrupulosity. I can tell you from my own experience that this article is pure Hokem with regards to the approaches being presented. Of course there is a grain of truth in it but, that is how the Evil one works. Take a truth and twist it. Do not be fooled by this tactic. This artilce is not as “well intentioned” as you both seem to think

If it the article was well intentioned the FOCUS would not have been on “religion” as the subject but on OCD and obsessive behavior. Obessing over religion is a symptom but, you don’t get that from the article. Again this is the liberal media spinning to suit their agenda. “Tolerant”?

:knight1:

I think the quote you have a problem with relates more to the next point in the article about keeping an eye out for a change in religious practice. If the author is atheist then I think they did really well to be fair and balanced about religion, because to someone outside religion looking in at it, it all seems weird just like a devout Catholic would find reading about Hinduism.

 

[Cadian]

Dr. Ray Guarendi of “The Doctor is In” (April 4, 2014 show) on Ave Maria Radio on this article:

Podcast. Listen to the first 10mins.

He agrees with my view that this article is suspect in it’s intentions. Please feel free to research Dr. Guarendi’s background and listen to his show and take him at his word.

:knight1:

 

[thewanderer]

Dr. Ray Guarendi of “The Doctor is In” (April 4, 2014 show) on Ave Maria Radio on this article:

Podcast. Listen to the first 10mins.

He agrees with my view that this article is suspect in it’s intentions. Please feel free to research Dr. Guarendi’s background and listen to his show and take him at his word.

:knight1:

So I just listened to that… he claims that the article is conflating religious practices driven by anxiety with those driven by true and healthy devotion. My problem is that he never actually shows where the article says any such thing, and, honestly, when I read the article I see it doing the exact opposite. It is very careful to make a distinction between healthy and unhealthy religious practices as well as to point out that that difference is not a matter of quantity. In other words, there is no reason to think that just because a child spends more time in prayer than any others his age there is something wrong with him. This in particular is interesting because the speaker from your link explicitly claims that the article is saying otherwise, a sign that this speaker did not bother to actually read the article with an open mind and instead read it through his own slant of what it was saying by ignoring all the important qualifiers in the article and then claiming that since the article doesn’t have any such qualifiers it is bashing religion. I’m sorry, I don’t care how much education or experience a person has, when they display so much bias about a piece that they claim it says something which it explicitly rejects (that if your son wants to spend an hour in the evening reading the bible he has problems because thats ‘too much time’ to spend on religious practices) then what he has to say about that particular piece is worthless.

 

[Cadian]

So I just listened to that… he claims that the article is conflating religious practices driven by anxiety with those driven by true and healthy devotion. My problem is that he never actually shows where the article says any such thing, and, honestly, when I read the article I see it doing the exact opposite. It is very careful to make a distinction between healthy and unhealthy religious practices as well as to point out that that difference is not a matter of quantity. In other words, there is no reason to think that just because a child spends more time in prayer than any others his age there is something wrong with him. This in particular is interesting because the speaker from your link explicitly claims that the article is saying otherwise, a sign that this speaker did not bother to actually read the article with an open mind and instead read it through his own slant of what it was saying by ignoring all the important qualifiers in the article and then claiming that since the article doesn’t have any such qualifiers it is bashing religion. I’m sorry, I don’t care how much education or experience a person has, when they display so much bias about a piece that they claim it says something which it explicitly rejects (that if your son wants to spend an hour in the evening reading the bible he has problems because thats ‘too much time’ to spend on religious practices) then what he has to say about that particular piece is worthless.

Your scales are clouding your vision (and hearing). You are mischaracterizing what Dr. Guarendi is saying. I will leave it for those with more open minds to listen to the Podcast and form their own opinions on the matter. You take the time to go out of your way to talk about how much “eductation he has” vs. “personal bias” which he stated none, to change the message. This is akin to Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals tactics to twist the message when it doesn’t agree with your agenda. Dr. Guarendi is a well respected CATHOLIC Psychologist with a long standing radio show and years of practice and more than one book on healthy child development. He at the end of the ten minute review just cautions that the article was not completely fair and could be characterized as the SECULAR MEDIA and SECULAR Psychologist going on to warn against religion PERIOD. That is the underlying fear. When those that practice “social engineering” get the world they want don’t be surprised because you did nothing to stop it. :knight1:

 

[thewanderer]

Your scales are clouding your vision (and hearing). You are mischaracterizing what Dr. Guarendi is saying. I will leave it for those with more open minds to listen to the Podcast and form their own opinions on the matter. You take the time to go out of your way to talk about how much “eductation he has” vs. “personal bias” which he stated none, to change the message. This is akin to Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals tactics to twist the message when it doesn’t agree with your agenda. Dr. Guarendi is a well respected CATHOLIC Psychologist with a long standing radio show and years of practice and more than one book on healthy child development. He at the end of the ten minute review just cautions that the article was not completely fair and could be characterized as the SECULAR MEDIA and SECULAR Psychologist going on to warn against religion PERIOD. That is the underlying fear. When those that practice “social engineering” get the world they want ** don’t be surprised because you did nothing to stop it. **:knight1:

I understand that we are going to have to agree to disagree here about his interpretation of this article. Although, honestly, the fact that he claimed, well, I guess I should say implied, that this article is saying something that the article itself explicitly warns against seems like pretty obvious bias, or, at the very least, misunderstanding of the article in question.

Your last line, however, is completely uncalled for. I would appreciate it if you would rethink the assumptions underlying this and realize that they are not, in fact, founded by anything I have said on this thread. Please be more careful in the future about making assumptions about others simply because they disagree with your interpretation of a particular article.

 

[3DOCTORS]

:slapfight: :stretcher: :crutches: :crutches:

Why not just “consider the source,” and take what is useful and good from the article and ignore the rest? Even if someone reads it and gets a misconception, we Catholic apologists are here if they need us. No worries!

 

[BobCatholic]

If a child does not worship the mirror, Time magazine thinks they’re in the wrong religion, and/or thinks they are too religious.

 

[thewanderer]

:slapfight: :stretcher: :crutches: :crutches:

Why not just “consider the source,” and take what is useful and good from the article and ignore the rest? Even if someone reads it and gets a misconception, we Catholic apologists are here if they need us. No worries!

lol, I already said we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I absolutely understand that this article could be misconstrued to be anti religion, and no doubt many readers will take it that way, but I just don’t see it if you actually take the article at face value. Again, people will just have to agree to disagree, but just please be aware that this article is highlighting a very important and real problem, even if you don’t like the manner in which it does this.

 

[3DOCTORS]

lol, I already said we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I absolutely understand that this article could be misconstrued to be anti religion, and no doubt many readers will take it that way, but I just don’t see it if you actually take the article at face value. Again, people will just have to agree to disagree, but just please be aware that this article is highlighting a very important and real problem, even if you don’t like the manner in which it does this.

Well, for the record, I agree with you. A magazine such as Time has to pitch its articles to a wider audience, unlike Catholic Answers Magazine which has more leeway to “preach to the choir” as it were. Most in the secular world have no clue what religious scrupulosity is, and this article might provide the lightbulb moment :idea: for a parent who sees troubling symptoms in their child to investigate the matter further. Hopefully they will find a helper for their child, if it goes that far, who is not close-minded toward genuine spiritual and religious matters but rather focuses on helping the child find a healthy, anxiety-free balance. :twocents:

 

[LoveandMercy]

Disagree otherwise everyone from Moses to the disciples could be mentally ill aswell as many priests… lets just agree… the Devil is at work… lets fight it

 

[englishredrose]

For all that, it has a point

How do adults suddenly become Scrupules - a word I learned here by the way.

But connected to obsessive compulsive dissorder in that they worry, heavily worry about their sins.

Where does it come from? It probably has been with them all their lives and just waiting to manifest itself onto sins rather than cleaning in non Catholics. If you not been a Catholic then probably would suffer from some form of OCD may be?

So if this can be identified in childhood then may be these children can be given a break from their obsessiveness of prayer and learn to recognise it so it dont become into obsessiveness over sin in adult Catholic life. Faith is meant to be free-ing of the soul and trusting in God. Not being tied down into some routine.

I would think that the children who do have OCD in religious ness, if it hadn’t been for the religion they may have developed it in other forms and by identifying it in children at a young age, through cognitive behavioural thereapy may mean that issues like overworrying about sin may never happen or at least learn to trust their priest a whole lot more so the worry is dealt with in proportion in confession ?

It may be propegander material but it does serve a reminder about how many adult suffer with worrying about sin and if this is caught in childhood then their adult time may be more at peace than current adults where it not been caught in childhood.

 

[3DOCTORS]

For all that, it has a point

How do adults suddenly become Scrupules - a word I learned here by the way.

But connected to obsessive compulsive dissorder in that they worry, heavily worry about their sins.

Where does it come from? It probably has been with them all their lives and just waiting to manifest itself onto sins rather than cleaning in non Catholics. If you not been a Catholic then probably would suffer from some form of OCD may be?

I would think so. Mine was with me from the time of First Communion prep - and there were some stresses and traumas in my life leading up to that point and my grandpa died during that school year. The training for First Communion at that time in my parish did not skip over the topic of Hell. It was not like they dwelt on it excessively, it’s just that my personality, already anxious and guilt-ridden, seized upon it and the fear just exploded out of control in my little mind.

During my youth and teenage years, I had what is known as a delicate conscience and most of the time I took my Faith seriously. Which was not easy to do in the 1960s and 70s with all the moral permissiveness being promulgated in society.

My mom (who, interestingly, was Protestant) sometimes was my initial “confessor” - I can still vividly recall breaking down and admitting to her my theft of a classmate’s pencils (the classmate stole my Troll doll, but that didn’t give me the right to steal her pencils! ). Once I sobbed my heart out to Mom, I felt comforted. Then whenever Dad took me to Confession I could confess. It was always an anxious time standing in that Confession Line! :bigyikes:

Then when I was in college, I succumbed to some of the temptations that young adults sometimes succumb to, then after repenting, the scruples hit, which is also a common pattern. I suppose I was trying to protect myself from falling back into sin.

So if this can be identified in childhood then may be these children can be given a break from their obsessiveness of prayer and learn to recognise it so it dont become into obsessiveness over sin in adult Catholic life. Faith is meant to be free-ing of the soul and trusting in God. Not being tied down into some routine.

I would think that the children who do have OCD in religious ness, if it hadn’t been for the religion they may have developed it in other forms and by identifying it in children at a young age, through cognitive behavioural thereapy may mean that issues like overworrying about sin may never happen or at least learn to trust their priest a whole lot more so the worry is dealt with in proportion in confession ?

It may be propegander material but it does serve a reminder about how many adult suffer with worrying about sin and if this is caught in childhood then their adult time may be more at peace than current adults where it not been caught in childhood.

One would hope that with the parental awareness, the parent and priest (and if necessary a counselor) could help the child. I think if a Catholic parent is well-versed in his/her Faith and has an understanding of what scrupulosity is - and also how sensitive some children are, sometimes simply by inborn temperament, sometimes by traumas and news headlines, whatever the cause(s) - the parent could be the one the scrupulous child could trust. The child should be able to come to the parent and say “Mom/Dad, I did this - do you think it’s a sin I need to confess to Father?”