canabalism

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I always thought Jesus was a loaf of bread. I must have been missing something. The desciples were all butter cruisants weren’t they? What is with the Jesus wasn’t bread stuff? My church must be completely wrong! I have been buying Savior Jesus’s bread for years now, and following all the ads throughout my church. Wow. Thank you Pastor Jim for bringing me to the light!
 
And I will choose to believe the word of God.
Is this a new euphemistic expression for ‘God only speaks through PJs mind’? That’s more authority than even a Catholic Pope has!! :eek:

Even the Pope works in communion with over 450 bishops (all with PhDs in theological studies, church history and philosophy and a life’s works of experience and personal reflection and study), and the insights from the hundreds and hundreds of bookshelf miles in the Vatican Library containing historical evidential archives of saints and martyrs lives, records of the early church and 2000 years of Apostolic Tradition; not to mention the most obvious thing - apostolic succession that comes to us DIRECTLY from people who actually personally knew Jesus and died for him. What’s your family tree and pedigree that make you think you should trust your own salvation to your own private council ? Here is a little secret the forefathers of the “Age of Enlightenment” never wanted to let out. And that is, ‘that truth is not a function of belief’. No matter how much we want to believe something that is false to be true and no matter how much faith we have in our own self sufficiency - what is false remains false and is not transformed by an act of false faith. Stubbornness is also not an admissible substitute for faith and is the essence of pride.

James
 
Pastor Jim, can you tell us where you learned what you know? And where that person learned it, and so on?

If you site the bible as the source of your knowledge, please list the edition, translator, and editor. Thanks.
 
Pastor Jim could you take the time to answer my questions

we don’t belive he is a door or wood.

But you should notice something from
Scripture no one walked away from Jesus when he said he was a door of wood

Why did they walk away from Jesus when they heard hiM say his flesh is real food? could it be that they did not think he was talking simbolicly as he did with the door no one wlked away when he said he was a door

Why would Jesus not tell them the meaning behind what he said so they would not be confused and walk away ? He always explained the parables. When not understood?

They understood Jesus but they could not except it

Read the whole chapter these people walked a long distance. Just to hear Jesus say he is symbolicly in the bread as if that would be hard for these men to except.

How many have left your church because he is symbolically in your bread?
 
Pastor Jim could you take the time to answer my questions

we don’t belive he is a door or wood.

But you should notice something from
Scripture no one walked away from Jesus when he said he was a door of wood

Why did they walk away from Jesus when they heard hiM say his flesh is real food? could it be that they did not think he was talking simbolicly as he did with the door no one wlked away when he said he was a door

Why would Jesus not tell them the meaning behind what he said so they would not be confused and walk away ? He always explained the parables. When not understood?

They understood Jesus but they could not except it

Read the whole chapter these people walked a long distance. Just to hear Jesus say he is symbolicly in the bread as if that would be hard for these men to except.

How many have left your church because he is symbolically in your bread?
I think poor PJ is getting backlogged with all our questions. Let’s make it easy for him with multiple choice replies so he doesn’t have to break everything down to his catch all phrase “because that’s not what the bible says”.

Why did the non-believers walk away when Jesus told the crowd that unless they eat His flesh and drink His blood they have no life in them?
  • A - They simply could not believe that eating Jesus’ real flesh and drinking His real blood was Kosher.
  • B - They had a premonition that John would write about them and if they stuck around too long some academic would put in chapter and verse numbers that marked their unbelief with the mark of the beast! (e.g. John 6:66)
  • C - An early Anabaptist hiding among the rank and file started an uprising when he said this would lead to paganistic practices, announced an “altar call” at City Hall and a large number went to pay their tax to Caesar and get saved at the same time.
  • D - Someone arrived with the basket of leftover loaves and fishes and they all went out to lunch.
  • E - Because what Jesus said sounded non-biblical and a lot ran home to look it up.
:rolleyes:

James
 
He is not calling His followers to eat His literal flesh, but to take part in His crucifixion, just as we’re told we must in Romans 6:6 and Galatians 2:20.**
Jim:

you are half right here. Jesus calls His followers to take part in His crucifixion, to participate if you will in His sacrifice. Now how does one participate in a Sacrifice? If you study the Bible as a whole, you will discover that one participates in a Sacrifice by eating it. Eating it! Jesus is the paschal lamb, we are called to participate in His crucifixion by EATING HIM. 👍 That is why we call it the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Marsha
 
It has nothing to do with what I think He meant. It is what the Bible says.
I don’t know what translation you’re reading from, but it is not accurate.
Jesus is pretty clear here: John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
 
I agree. When we partake of the bread and wine representing Christ’s body and blood, we should not have any unrepentant sin.

However, that doesn’t mean that Jesus is a loaf of bread.
Unfortunately, you’ll need to provide the evidence where Christ says the Eucharist is merely symbolic.

At the same time, why not show us where the wine at Cana was merely symbolic, the loaves and fishes were merely symbolic, and the manna from heaven which fed the Israelites in the desert was merely symbolic?
 
And since John 6 is so important to this discussion, let’s see that in the full context that non-Catholics tend to abhor:

1: After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2: And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3: And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4: And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5: When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6: And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7: Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8: One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him,
9: There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10: And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11: And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12: When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13: Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14: Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16: And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17: And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18: And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19: So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20: But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21: Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22: The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23: (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24: When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25: And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26: Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27: Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them,** I am the bread of life**: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said,** I am the bread which came down from heaven**.
42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51:** I am the living bread which came down from heaven**: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58:** This is that bread which came down from heaven**: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

The real question is how many times Christ must say something before he is believed. I posted the link to the ECFs on the Eucharist; they believed.

It is an irony that many of those who insist upon biblical literalness suddenly catch the metaphorical vapors when it comes to John 6. Many who claim to love the purity of the Early Church treat the ECFs as fools when it comes to their Eucharistic practices. Many who take a dim view of the Jews who simply couldn’t “get” Christ — notwithstanding the fact that Christ himself spoke of the scales before there eyes, something which happened to not be of their making — suddenly wish to join the Jews who left the disciples upon hearing Christ teach the Eucharist in John 6.

It would be an impenetrable mystery but for one thing—anti-Catholic tradition.
 
Take a look at Numbers 11 and judge whether the manna referred to was real or not:

1: And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
2: And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.
3: And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the LORD burnt among them.
4: And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
5: We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick:
6: But our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.
7: And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdellium.
8: And the people went about, and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar, and baked it in pans, and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil.
9: And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.
10: Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the LORD was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
11: And Moses said unto the LORD, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
12: Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
13: Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.
14: I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me.
15: And if thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray thee, out of hand, if I have found favour in thy sight; and let me not see my wretchedness.
16: And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
17: And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.
18: And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.
19: Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days;
20: But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?
21: And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month.
22: Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them?
23: And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD’s hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
24: And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25: And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26: But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27: And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28: And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29: And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’s people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
30: And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.
31: And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day’s journey on this side, and as it were a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
32: And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
33: And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
34: And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.
35: And the people journeyed from Kibroth-hattaavah unto Hazeroth; and abode at Hazeroth.

Consider how the incidents recounted above tie to John 6.
 
I have said it before and now I say it again, in this chapter Jesus provides us with three proofs that He was speaking literally not figuratively. I have marked those proofs in red with my comments about them in blue
John6:26: Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27: Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34: Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35: And Jesus said unto them,** I am the bread of life**: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said,** I am the bread which came down from heaven**. Jesus literally did come down from heaven, ergo Jesus is literally the Bread and the Bread is literally Jesus42: And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43: Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51:** I am the living bread which came down from heaven**: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus was speaking literally when He saiys he will raise us up on the last day, He is speaking literally when He promises us eternal life, ergo He is speaking literally when He commands u s to eat His flesh and drink His blood
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58:** This is that bread which came down from heaven**: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? We know that Jesus literally ascended into heaven where He was before. Here He provides his disciples with literal proof that He was speaking literally when He said His flesh was meat indeed.63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
 
The real question is how many times Christ must say something before he is believed. I posted the link to the ECFs on the Eucharist; they believed.
True.

And a companion question similar by symmetry is how many times must a Protestant say “I believe” before he knows he is really, really, really, really… saved and not just doing dry runs before he can have the confidence that he has arrived to the blissful nirvana of an irrevocable OSAS; and be confident that he is unable to ever again commit a consequential sin again and go have fun messing around with the nextdoor Catholic heathen’s wife? 😉

James
 
Marsha, you’ve raised an excellent point with your three proofs. We also have the fact that Christ typically makes it very clear when he is speaking in parable and usually explains what he means by it to the disciples.
 
Marsha, you’ve raised an excellent point with your three proofs. We also have the fact that Christ typically makes it very clear when he is speaking in parable and usually explains what he means by it to the disciples.
Teflon:

You’re absolutely correct, but I’ve found that sometimes just being clear isn’t always enough, because there is always someone out there who wants to twist things around and muddy the waters. When that happens, it is nice to be able to take the obvious and wave it like a flag.

Marsha
 
Jim:

you are half right here. Jesus calls His followers to take part in His crucifixion, to participate if you will in His sacrifice. Now how does one participate in a Sacrifice?
By crucifying the flesh.
If you study the Bible as a whole, you will discover that one participates in a Sacrifice by eating it.
Which verses say this?
 
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