canabalism

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In cannibalism the victim doesn’t serve himself **and **continue to be seated at table making conversation at the same time.
VCI’m not so sure. I have heard of some vegetarians eating the afterbirth, or placenta, after a woman gives birth. I would say that in some sense this qualifies as cannibalism - it certainly has the “ick” factor, and yet I assume that in most such cases the “victim” partakes in the meal as well.
 
Teflon:

Yes, I was also in a similar boat myself. Born and raised a Seventh Day Adventist, an anti-Catholic sect, it was nothing but the infinite grace of God that allowed me to recognize the truth. Often I attempt to show an Adventist the truth of the Church in the Scriptures but to no avail. Their total inability to see and recognize in the Bible what is so very plain and simple makes me shake my head and thank God for the great grace which brought me home to Rome.

Marsha
Catholics read the Bible very differently than Protestants do. We read it in light of the whole of Scripture, requiring that everything within be consistent with everything else. They begin with their tradition, itself nothing more than theology by subtraction in that they started with the Catholic Church and whittled away the parts of it they didn’t like, and dig out of Scripture only those verses which support it, ignoring those which do not, and ignoring the whole context of chapter and book and Testament. Between these verse fragments they insert their theology.
 
VociMike,

Although I can see the merit in your response, I tend to look at it a different way – which might prove simpler and less prone to problematic objections. First, I’ll illustrate the possible problematic responses, then give my view.

…
My approach, rather would be to focus solely on something you touched upon but which should be, in my opinion, at the forefront of our argument against the charge of cannibalism, namely that the body of Christ is not rendered asunder – or to be be even more clear – the body of Christ is not diminished.

Receiving communion is to receive the Body of Christ, not under His natural mode of existence, but rather under a sacramental mode of existence. Cannibals eat bodies under their natural, proper mode of existing, with all that entails (such as, at a minimum, actually touching the natural body.) But we don’t touch the natural body of Christ. You don’t chew His natural body. His natural body is not even moved by local motion under the appearances of bread.

The huge difference between cannibalism and Holy Communion can be seen quite readily when you consider that cannibals can’t eat the same body over and over in many different places. Cannibalism always diminishes a body. Christ’s body, in the sacrament, is not diminished. And this is not primarily because of His Divinity or His resurrection, but primarily because He is sacramentally, and not naturally, present.

Thoughts?
VC
VC, I think you are getting into some very interesting concepts here. If we go back to Eden we see man being compelled by Satan to disobey God to consume the apple out of a core desire to be like God. Apart from the sin of trusting a complete stranger (the serpent) over the natural friendship owed God for creating them and God’s deserving of belief the fundamental transgression is one of envy, pride and desire to posses beyond the limit of one’s freely GIVEN good created nature. I really think we need to see the Eucharist in the concept of an antidote, or medicine; a salvific fruit from the Tree of Life (the cross where God hangs Himself as a fruit to be taken). This view of Eucharist removes the repulsion to any form of cannibalism. In fact, those that entertain the idea of cannibalism are working DIRECTLY to Satan’s agenda who rather than playing the old game of enticing us to eat the forbidden fruit is swapping the lie around. Satan is now trying to convince us that the salvific fruit is poison and a new forbidden fruit (cannibalism) so we don’t eat it at the very same time we are all dieing from his original lie!!! Let me demonstrate my view of Eucharist in a scripturally integrative way.

In essence God, through the Eucharist is giving a new invitation with a positive commandment (i.e. “eat so you may live”) that results in an award of life rather than a negative commandment (i.e. “do not eat from the forbidden fruit least you die”). Both approaches are based on personal choices and consistent with our created nature of free choice and our nature of hunger. I see all aspects of our human existence (need, hunger, love, desire for intimacy, growth, awe of the scale of the cosmos) as a metaphorical and self evident lesson that compels us to seek a higher nature that is available to us only through Christian teaching and the credible hope of God’s favor. In Eucharist, a new Divine invitation to “eat my body and drink my blood” replaces an old imperative commandment of avoidance of he forbidden fruit. Eucharist itself is completely integrative with an ancient old covenant based on Law (that all builds on the same principals we originally see in Eden’s only commandment) AND with the new covenant that based on trust and acceptance of Love.

Clearly, we see in the Eucharist and the entirety of the scriptural message that God comes as our rescuer and gives us a new Divine Invitation:
‘Come! Extend your hand and choose your portion as your forefathers did in Eden. But this time I open access to The Tree of Life and now invite you to not withhold your hand from the forbidden fruit but to instead take freely from the fruit of the Tree of Life!. Take care to not be deceived a second time by the serpent - he wants you as his children and to make you his thralls. But as I rescued the Jews from slavery and delivered them to the promised land I will rescue you from slavery to sin and bring you to the promised land of my Kingdom. Your parents Adam and Even trusted the serpent over me. You children of Adam and Eve listen to me this 2nd time so you may live. The serpent is NOT your friend. He does not want you to eat of this salvific fruit - why should you listen to him after you have all experienced such sorrow, death and sadness? The serpent offers you nothing and I offer you restoration to My friendship and life eternal. Yet he uses false teachers and ministers of deceit to compel you from the Truth that this salvific fruit will restore you. In Eden ther serpent compelled your parents to believe that equality with God was a thing to be grasped at; and so through disobedience, as I warned, your inherited a nature that became poisoned and subject to death. But shall I deem it just to let all their children suffer for the transgressions of their parents? No! I will give you new parents and adopt you as My children! Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for my sake. But I withheld his hand and replaced his offered sacrifice of faith with my only Son - Jesus. Can you not now through Abraham’s willing grief in the notion of losing his son empathize with my grief in sacrificing my only son Jesus? From My Son’s sacrifice is planted the seed of life by which The Tree of Life becomes available to you; and it bears much fruit! So, come again now and grasp as your parents first did. But this time do so through my invitation to reach for friendship with you God. For I make myself your Father! See, I come to you as real food and real drink so that you may ascertain that I am suitable and good for you to eat and drink. Consume Me. Bring Me into you to offset the transgression your parents did with consuming the forbidden fruit. Do not listen to the serpent a 2nd time to reject what I say. Come, trust me, and eat from the Divine Fruit born of my Son’s obedience and Love for Me and you. If you eat this Divine Salvific Fruit from the Tree of Life it will heal you; and will restore you to friendship and transform you into My very nature. Do you not still desire to be like Me?! I give what the serpent could not give through a lie. So withhold not your hand then for My Nature is much greater that what I originally created in you and will restore you to eternal life. But you must first trust Me and let mistrust dies so I may live in you. My friendship is your antidote and My nature brings you to a new and better Life. I have ransomed you out of the slavery of sin and will adopt you as My very children. Come and eat!’

Thus in the imagery of Eden we have no semantic of cannibalism but rather a divine mystical experience that transcends mere human semantics. This imagery reachs from earth to heaven in the same manner a tree grows from earth toward the heavens. The Tree of Life produces fruit that arises from the cooperation of creation with God’s natural laws and God working cooperatively through human estate (Jesus and the saints) and whose soil is tilled by man (our sacrificial works in the flood of God’s loving grace). At the end of the day all we have to do is pick the fruit and eat it and not pay ear to Satan teling us to ‘ignore our hunger because God is lieing to us’. God makes it very easy for us since this time since Satan has nothing to offer us to escape death; and all we have to do is satisfy or spiritual hunger by eating.

James
 
VC, I think you are getting into some very interesting concepts here. If we go back to Eden we see man being compelled by Satan to disobey God to consume the apple out of a core desire to be like God. Apart from the sin of trusting a complete stranger (the serpent) over the natural friendship owed God for creating them and God’s deserving of belief the fundamental transgression is one of envy, pride and desire to posses beyond the limit of one’s freely GIVEN good created nature. I really think we need to see the Eucharist in the concept of an antidote, or medicine; a salvific fruit from the Tree of Life (the cross where God hangs Himself as a fruit to be taken). This view of Eucharist removes the repulsion to any form of cannibalism. In fact, those that entertain the idea of cannibalism are working DIRECTLY to Satan’s agenda who rather than playing the old game of enticing us to eat the forbidden fruit is swapping the lie around. Satan is now trying to convince us that the salvific fruit is poison and a new forbidden fruit (cannibalism) so we don’t eat it at the very same time we are all dieing from his original lie!!! Let me demonstrate my view of Eucharist in a scripturally integrative way.

In essence God, through the Eucharist is giving a new invitation with a positive commandment (i.e. “eat so you may live”) that results in an award of life rather than a negative commandment (i.e. “do not eat from the forbidden fruit least you die”). Both approaches are based on personal choices and consistent with our created nature of free choice and our nature of hunger. I see all aspects of our human existence (need, hunger, love, desire for intimacy, growth, awe of the scale of the cosmos) as a metaphorical and self evident lesson that compels us to seek a higher nature that is available to us only through Christian teaching and the credible hope of God’s favor. In Eucharist, a new Divine invitation to “eat my body and drink my blood” replaces an old imperative commandment of avoidance of he forbidden fruit. Eucharist itself is completely integrative with an ancient old covenant based on Law (that all builds on the same principals we originally see in Eden’s only commandment) AND with the new covenant that based on trust and acceptance of Love.

Clearly, we see in the Eucharist and the entirety of the scriptural message that God comes as our rescuer and gives us a new Divine Invitation:
'Come! Extend your hand and choose your portion as your forefathers did in Eden. But this time I open access to The Tree of Life and now invite you to not withhold your hand from the forbidden fruit but to instead take freely from the fruit of the Tree of Life!. Take care to not be deceived a second time by the serpent - he wants you as his children and to make you his thralls. But as I rescued the Jews from slavery and delivered them to the promised land I will rescue you from slavery to sin and bring you to the promised land of my Kingdom. Your parents Adam and Even trusted the serpent over me. You children of Adam and Eve listen to me this 2nd time so you may live. The serpent is NOT your friend. He does not want you to eat of this salvific fruit - why should you listen to him after you have all experienced such sorrow, death and sadness? The serpent offers you nothing and I offer you restoration to My friendship and life eternal. Yet he uses false teachers and ministers of deceit to compel you from the Truth that this salvific fruit will restore you. In Eden ther serpent compelled your parents to believe that equality with God was a thing to be grasped at; and so through disobedience, as I warned, your inherited a nature that became poisoned and subject to death. But shall I deem it just to let all their children suffer for the transgressions of their parents? No! I will give you new parents and adopt you as My children! Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for my sake. But I withheld his hand and replaced his offered sacrifice of faith with my only Son - Jesus. Can you not now through Abraham’s willing grief in the notion of losing his son empathize with my grief in sacrificing my only son Jesus? From My Son’s sacrifice is planted the seed of life by which The Tree of Life becomes available to you; and it bears much fruit! So, come again now and grasp as your parents first did. But this time do so through my invitation to reach for friendship with you God. For I make myself your Father! See, I come to you as real food and real drink so that you may ascertain that I am suitable and good for you to eat and drink. Consume Me. Bring Me into you to offset the transgression your parents did with consuming the forbidden fruit. Do not listen to the serpent a 2nd time to reject what I say. Come, trust me, and eat from the Divine Fruit born of my Son’s obedience and Love for Me and you. If you eat this Divine Salvific Fruit from the Tree of Life it will heal you; and will restore you to friendship and transform you into My very nature. Do you not still desire to be like Me?! I give what the serpent could not give through a lie. So withhold not your hand then for My Nature is much greater that what I originally created in you and will restore you to eternal life. But you must first trust Me and let mistrust dies so I may live in you. My friendship is your antidote and My nature brings you to a new and better Life. I have ransomed you out of the slavery of sin and will adopt you as My very children. Come and eat!’

Thus in the imagery of Eden we have no semantic of cannibalism but rather a divine mystical experience that transcends mere human semantics. This imagery reachs from earth to heaven in the same manner a tree grows from earth toward the heavens. The Tree of Life produces fruit that arises from the cooperation of creation with God’s natural laws and God working cooperatively through human estate (Jesus and the saints) and whose soil is tilled by man (our sacrificial works in the flood of God’s loving grace). At the end of the day all we have to do is pick the fruit and eat it and not pay ear to Satan teling us to ‘ignore our hunger because God is lieing to us’. God makes it very easy for us since this time since Satan has nothing to offer us to escape death; and all we have to do is satisfy or spiritual hunger by eating.

James
very good thank you James

:clapping:
 
Originally Posted by Pastor Jim
And I will pray directly to God for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Jim forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Where in the Bible does it say that God shows mercy to sinners based on the prayers of others?

According to you, what good would praying for us do???

Another extrabiblical doctine?? In which post were you mistaken? It has to be one of these.
Sean Boyle I dont think Pastor Jim answered your question

🙂
 
Originally Posted by Pastor Jim

And I will pray directly to God for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Boyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Jim
Where in the Bible does it say that God shows mercy to sinners based on the prayers of others?

According to you, what good would praying for us do???

Another extrabiblical doctine?? In which post were you mistaken? It has to be one of these.

Sean Boyle I dont think Pastor Jim answered your question

🙂
Excellent observation Odell. But I don’t think PJ can see the Holy Spirit working right through him like you and I can. In his message to Sean he asks a rhetorical question about where God shows mercy to sinners based on the prayers of others. Then the Holy Spirit reveals to PJ through his own words and thoughts that prayer works and even makes him state it publicly in his own sarcastic retort “…And I will pray directly to God for you.” The man, or I should say the Holy Spirit answers PJs own questions but PJ is too blind by hubris and error to even fathom that God is stating the plain truth right through him.

Right now I am chuckling and somehow can’t get the OT imagery of God being able to speak even through the mouth of a donkey (Balaam’s) out of my mind. 😉
Numbers 22:28-32:
Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”
“No,” he said.

31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
Ironically in Ballam’s case his remedy was to slay the donkey with the sword and was confronted by his own standards of judgement by an angel of God ready to slay him with a sword. The lesson here is clearly - ‘don’t judge’ but pray for the man or we face the same judgement that we might normally be humanly inclined to inflict on the man in our own frustrated judgement. So, at this point it’s beyond words guys. Pray for PJ that his eyes will be opened…

James
 
Sean Boyle I dont think Pastor Jim answered your question

🙂
🙂 I’ve been watching for Pastor Jim to pop-up on another thread. He been asked the same thing in a couple of different places.🙂
 
While I know t hat the Holy Euchrist - the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our oord Jesus Christ is not canabalism, I can not articulate why. Therefore, why?
Even the symbolic-only Protestants (Baptist types, etc.) are committing symbolic cannabalism.

It was God who gave us the Eucharistic service of bread & wine; body & blood. Let them take it up with Him.
 
The text says that Jesus broke off a piece of bread and gave it to them, not flesh.
It happens to be Divine Flesh that is called “bread”.

Your error is not accepting that the scripture writer has already established the equivalence of the language lexicon “bread” as “flesh” in the real-sense. What you are opportunistically trying to create here is a false dichotomy by taking advantage of a lexiconic artifact that arises in conventions of natural language expression. In the Eucharist we are dealing with unconventional concepts that are not of this world and therefor there were previously no direct ways of literally expressing the concept of transubstantiation without describing it in the manner the writer used. Don’t forget the apostles themselves did not understand all that was happening and it took centuries to develop our understanding of Christology.

Let me give you an example:
A writer for your local church pamphlet puts out a news release stating: "Today Jim Smith made an altar call and proclaimed “I am Jim Smith and I am a poor sinner just like the rest of you. I believe in The Lord and come to be saved.” Jim was immediately baptised on the spot to wild applause and gospel singing. Shortly afterwords Jim looking all wet on the outside but pretty much the same and no worse for wear said exuberantly “I know I still look like the same old sinner I always was but I know I am a new creation - hallelujah!”.

A new creation or just the same ol’ Jim who is now just all wet? :rolleyes:

James
 
Anyone notice how dozens of valid points get posted and ignored while the one that is responded to are ones like this?
This is typical when discussing matters of import with people wedded to the notion of Theology By Subtraction.

It is very common around here. I’m sure someone will teach Pastor Jim that the proper response is to ask a plethora of completely irrelevant questions which will keep us busy and bury the inconvenient questions deep within the thread. Then, when we repost the original, ignored questions, he can say “Old question. We’ve moved on” or somesuch.

I’m sure someone more skilled in evasiveness on these forums will PM him the playbook at some point.

In the meantime, all we can do is repost and keep politely requesting a response.
 
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