Canadian and American Catholics?

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Hello the purpose of this thread is twofold; (1) I am posting on traditional Catholics because when one wants to ask or post on a general issue or question on today’s Catholic Church there is no general discussion place…that point is more of a housekeeping point…and (2) as a Canadian Catholic I am seeing some remarkable differences in soci-cultural thinking between American and Canadian Catholics…its really neat…do others share that perception with me?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Concept for Transformation)
 
I don’t quite take your meaning Trickster. How are you seeing us as different. Can you say more about that?

I live pretty far south of Canada,so maybe my ignorance is fostered by distance. We have passed through on vacation from time to time and generally found Canadians to be really nice people, but can’t remember differences in Catholics.
 
trickster said:
Hello the purpose of this thread is twofold; (1) I am posting on traditional Catholics because when one wants to ask or post on a general issue or question on today’s Catholic Church there is no general discussion place…that point is more of a housekeeping point…and (2) as a Canadian Catholic I am seeing some remarkable differences in soci-cultural thinking between American and Canadian Catholics…its really neat…do others share that perception with me?

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Concept for Transformation)
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I think it’s to be expected, though we must always keep in mind that such differences are trends which may have many exceptions. Out of curiosity what are some things you’ve observed?
 
There are sub cultures in Catholicism. In the Byzantine Rite this usually means an establishment of a separate sui juris Church.

Catholicism in Canada is driven early on by the French, and then today mostly by Filipino immigrants.

In the US its a mix. It started with mostly a Protestant-Anglican nation with some English Catholics and the French. Then today its mostly South American Catholics.
 
One of the most notable things that I have observed in the American Catholic conversation is the black and white dualism between “types” of Catholics…it is almost like the no middle ground stand off between the republicans and democrats…I fear that the US seems to be imploding upon itself…no room for compromise…equally the directed attacks on fellow Catholics between liberals on consevatives and vice versa bother me because, well, they don’t really feel Catholic or Christian…

I guess in Canada we are much more open to the “grey” areas more so than the Americans…we don’t get too upset about gay marriage (cause it has been legal in our country for 10 years now)…we have a live and let live attitude where no one really has to be right…we just have to live in harmony and pay taxes in either official language 🙂

However, I can say that I have never been more proud of the Catholic Church than I was when I saw the work of the El Paso Diocese with respect to Mexican refugee work…that is the church that I understood and grew up with…so I think Americans are more dramatic than we are…

Thoughts?

Bruce Ferguson
 
trickster said:
I guess in Canada we are much more open to the “grey” areas more so than the Americans…we don’t get too upset about gay marriage (cause it has been legal in our country for 10 years now)…we have a live and let live attitude where no one really has to be right…we just have to live in harmony and pay taxes in either official language 🙂
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Are we not upset? I think we’re mostly quiet about it because its a hate crime to speak against their lifestyle.
 
ConstantineTG said:
There are sub cultures in Catholicism. In the Byzantine Rite this usually means an establishment of a separate sui juris Church.

Catholicism in Canada is driven early on by the French, and then today mostly by Filipino immigrants.

In the US its a mix. It started with mostly a Protestant-Anglican nation with some English Catholics and the French. Then today its mostly South American Catholics.
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That is a very well thought out treatment of the issue…thank you Constantine…as you can see by my response…I wasn’t thinking that analytical about things…but your right…it was the Oblates of Mary Immaculate that did most of the historical work here in Canada and yes we had a Catholic Church - I forgot the name fo the thing - but the Chruch in New France was subject to the Government of France of the day and not to Rome…“Gallican” Cathoicism I think…

I think that our tradition in compromise (i.e. two founding nations, two founding languages - bilingual and multicultural orientation of Canada itself) has shaped a Catholicism that can be distinguised from the Americans…I jsut find Catholicism to be more controversial in the states…but I grant that is totally a subjective observation on my part…

Thanks again…that is a good analysis.

Bruce Ferguson
 
ConstantineTG said:
About gays. I’ve heard priest talk about it but they are indeed very careful about their language.
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Ok…got it…well I think we should be talking respectfully about everyone including gay people because they too are creation of God and therefore deserving of the dignity God created in human life… … I don’t think it is 'hate crime" in Canada because our legislation was very clear in supporting gay rights to marriage while maintaining the rights of faith communities to follow thier teachings…otherwise to impose this on churches would be a denial of the Charter of Rights and basic human freedoms…that Canada stands for…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickstewr
 
Hey Trickster,
It is probably fair to say that our respective politics shape and color our respective expressions of Catholicism. Left and Right are first and foremost political constructs or adjectives, so when they are applied to religion, they invariably have political overtones.

I have lived and even studied Theology in the USA, so I think that it is fair to say that some on both sides of the border see their Theology through their own political lens, and you have already fairly described how that can sometimes play out. Catholic theology, or Catholicism, I believe, was always to supersede our nationalistic or political identities (that’s why many Americans were opposed to the Kennedy Presidency) but over time, the secularization of religion has given us many Catholics (including 4 Canadian Prime Ministers) whose conduct in office did not reflect their compartmentalized Catholic values.

I am afraid this may end up being mostly a “Canuck” discussion, as we are more aware of US politics and Church than vice-versa, by virtue of our respective sizes. Here’s hoping that someone south of me will prove me wrong!
 
trickster said:
Ok…got it…well I think we should be talking respectfully about everyone including gay people because they too are creation of God and therefore deserving of the dignity God created in human life… … I don’t think it is 'hate crime" in Canada because our legislation was very clear in supporting gay rights to marriage while maintaining the rights of faith communities to follow thier teachings…otherwise to impose this on churches would be a denial of the Charter of Rights and basic human freedoms…that Canada stands for…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickstewr
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I agree, and the CCCB did recently come out with a statement on how the situation is handled. I am sympathetic of the kids who commit suicide because they were bullied for being gay. I mean, when heterosexual men boast of their promiscuity, they are applauded. Gays are bullied. I’m not calling for the celebration of their sin, but rather we should not allow such despicable acts be committed just because they sin.
 
Hi Witzy…thank you for that analysis…what did you study in theology…I took my theology in “postmodern” theology at Vancouver School of Theology and am intersested in theological framworks that allow us to think about how indigenous spirituality can be in conversation with the Catholic Church and the process is quite interesting and rewarding…

Look forward to hearing more from you…

Bruce Ferguson
 
ConstantineTG said:
I agree, and the CCCB did recently come out with a statement on how the situation is handled. I am sympathetic of the kids who commit suicide because they were bullied for being gay. I mean, when heterosexual men boast of their promiscuity, they are applauded. Gays are bullied. I’m not calling for the celebration of their sin, but rather we should not allow such despicable acts be committed just because they sin.
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I still think that there is a bit of homophobia in our thinking as Catholics…because we are much more tolerant of straight sexual misconduct and sin…than we are of gay misconduct and sins…we are all human and therefore subject to human sexuality…I believe that we should show the same tolerance for gay lovers as we do for straight people living in sin…we do not condone the sin…but we also don’t differentiate between gay sin and straight sin…(ah that caught my theological mind…going to work with that 🙂

Bruce
 
ConstantineTG said:
There are sub cultures in Catholicism. In the Byzantine Rite this usually means an establishment of a separate sui juris Church.

Catholicism in Canada is driven early on by the French, and then today mostly by Filipino immigrants.

In the US its a mix. It started with mostly a Protestant-Anglican nation with some English Catholics and the French. Then today its mostly South American Catholics.
Click to expand...
I think you made a big mistake, The Catholic Church in the US was shaped to a large extent by the Irish. The first significant waves of Irish immigration began in the early
1800’s, Before that time there were very few Catholics outside of Maryland and areas controlled by the Spanish or French-The South-West, the Louisiana area and Florida.
A good example of this are the earliest Catholic churches in Boston, New York City and Richmond Virginia, all of which date from between 1800 and 1810. As soon as the Irish got settled in the US, they brought over priests to service their communities.
And bear in mind, there was rabid anti-catholic sentiment throughout the United States up until the election of John Kennedy. In the 1840’s there was severe anti-Irish immigration (read anti-Catholic) feeling in the US resulting in the Know Nothing Party. The Irish problem was not resolved until the end of the American Civil War and then only because it was recognized that the North won the war because of the huge number of Irish in their army.
Then you have the enormous Italian, South German (Bavarian) and Polish immigration of the late 19th and early 20th Century. However, by this time the Irish Clergy predominated and controlled the US Church. This very conservative clergy stayed in power until V II, by which time they were thoroughly assimilated into and tolerant of US culture.
All of this coupled with a predominately Irish clergy made for a very conservative, ultra-orthodox Catholic Church pre V II. Then, the libral faction of the Catholic clergy took over post V II and we have what we have now.
 
Hi George, thanks for that perspective on the Irish Catholic…it makes quite a lot of sense in explaining the authority and direction of the Roman Catholic Church in the United States and that would also explain the difference with Canada given that most of the Catholic expeirience in Canada was French Canadian…the french clergy in fact supported Louis Riel to establish Manitoba as a french speaking and therefor Catholic province to stop the stem of the engilsh…“orange” comes to mind but not sure why???

So yeah…there may be a strong historical development of the socio-cultural aspects of our church in each of our countries…

Bruce Ferguson (Scottish Celtic and Aboriginal Canadian person!)
 
ConstantineTG said:
There are sub cultures in Catholicism. In the Byzantine Rite this usually means an establishment of a separate sui juris Church.

Catholicism in Canada is driven early on by the French, and then today mostly by Filipino immigrants.

In the US its a mix. It started with mostly a Protestant-Anglican nation with some English Catholics and the French. Then today its mostly South American Catholics.
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I am unclear what you mean when you say that the Catholic Church is “driven by…,”
Curiously, you do not mention Hispanic or Mexican Catholics in the US south, unless that was what you meant by South American…? Intersting point there, my parents winter in San Bernardino (CA) Diocese, and the fastest growing demographic there is…,
south Asian!
Filipinos are a very important part of the canadian Catholic Church, (and my parish!) but not yet at the level of Bishops or where Church policies are crafted, they are perhaps not a commensurate presence, not yet. Overall, I think your analysis was just too simplistic on both sides of the border!
Theologically, I’m hoping that Rome is still guiding or driving all the flock.
 
I think the people who post on this site are more conservative than average. Most Catholics I know are quite tolerant of differences, and are from all parts of the political spectrum.

I don’t see the Church as either liberal or conservative. It is conservative on some things, such as abortion; but liberal on workers’ rights, immigration, the right of workers to organize, capital punishment, and social justice. I would not, in general, classify Catholics as part of the ‘religious right’.

The American bishops have, indeed, spoken out on same-sex marriage, but I’m not sure that attitude is unanimous among the people in the pews.

I live in the Detroit suburbs, a twenty minute drive from Windsor, Ontario. I used to live in Maryland, which is more Catholic, and, ironically, more liberal.

You are right to observe that America seems more politically polarized than usual–a sign of bad economic times.
 
Thanks Martininthefield…yes that observance of “average American catholics” rings true to me and I spent a year in Texas…and I am not too sure if most of us ‘average" catholics define ourselves as left or right…we have certain priority beliefs that we anchor our decisions on…the dignity of human life is the "umbrella’ core belief that allows us to want to stop abortion, mercy killing, it makes us more or less anti-war, it makes us want to provide more opportuinity for the less fortunate…but those catholic ideals are judged by a secular political field …and hence to a great degree we are labelled right or left…but I am with you…last time I checked I am just Catholic…

Bruce
 
George_Stegmeir said:
I think you made a big mistake, The Catholic Church in the US was shaped to a large extent by the Irish. The first significant waves of Irish immigration began in the early
1800’s, Before that time there were very few Catholics outside of Maryland and areas controlled by the Spanish or French-The South-West, the Louisiana area and Florida.
A good example of this are the earliest Catholic churches in Boston, New York City and Richmond Virginia, all of which date from between 1800 and 1810. As soon as the Irish got settled in the US, they brought over priests to service their communities.
And bear in mind, there was rabid anti-catholic sentiment throughout the United States up until the election of John Kennedy. In the 1840’s there was severe anti-Irish immigration (read anti-Catholic) feeling in the US resulting in the Know Nothing Party. The Irish problem was not resolved until the end of the American Civil War and then only because it was recognized that the North won the war because of the huge number of Irish in their army.
Then you have the enormous Italian, South German (Bavarian) and Polish immigration of the late 19th and early 20th Century. However, by this time the Irish Clergy predominated and controlled the US Church. This very conservative clergy stayed in power until V II, by which time they were thoroughly assimilated into and tolerant of US culture.
All of this coupled with a predominately Irish clergy made for a very conservative, ultra-orthodox Catholic Church pre V II. Then, the libral faction of the Catholic clergy took over post V II and we have what we have now.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Irish. How could I have forgotten. And of course the Italians as well.
 
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