Canadian and American Catholics?

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I am unclear what you mean when you say that the Catholic Church is “driven by…,”
Curiously, you do not mention Hispanic or Mexican Catholics in the US south, unless that was what you meant by South American…? Intersting point there, my parents winter in San Bernardino (CA) Diocese, and the fastest growing demographic there is…,
south Asian!
Filipinos are a very important part of the canadian Catholic Church, (and my parish!) but not yet at the level of Bishops or where Church policies are crafted, they are perhaps not a commensurate presence, not yet. Overall, I think your analysis was just too simplistic on both sides of the border!
Theologically, I’m hoping that Rome is still guiding or driving all the flock.
Of course in Canada, Eastern Catholicism is big because of the Ukrainian Catholics. Although their numbers are dwindling as immigration from Ukraine has leveled off and many Ukrainian Catholics are assimilating to RC parishes, especially outside of Manitoba and Ontario.
 
I think you made a big mistake, The Catholic Church in the US was shaped to a large extent by the Irish. The first significant waves of Irish immigration began in the early
1800’s, Before that time there were very few Catholics outside of Maryland and areas controlled by the Spanish or French-The South-West, the Louisiana area and Florida.
A good example of this are the earliest Catholic churches in Boston, New York City and Richmond Virginia, all of which date from between 1800 and 1810. As soon as the Irish got settled in the US, they brought over priests to service their communities.
And bear in mind, there was rabid anti-catholic sentiment throughout the United States up until the election of John Kennedy. In the 1840’s there was severe anti-Irish immigration (read anti-Catholic) feeling in the US resulting in the Know Nothing Party. The Irish problem was not resolved until the end of the American Civil War and then only because it was recognized that the North won the war because of the huge number of Irish in their army.
Then you have the enormous Italian, South German (Bavarian) and Polish immigration of the late 19th and early 20th Century. However, by this time the Irish Clergy predominated and controlled the US Church. This very conservative clergy stayed in power until V II, by which time they were thoroughly assimilated into and tolerant of US culture.
All of this coupled with a predominately Irish clergy made for a very conservative, ultra-orthodox Catholic Church pre V II. Then, the libral faction of the Catholic clergy took over post V II and we have what we have now.
I never viewed the Irish as conservative, because Boston is very Irish and liberal. 🤷 What can I say? You learn something new everyday.

Also, I’d say it depended on where you lived. Polish Catholics dominated in the Midwest, except in Milwaukee, which had a ton of Germans, along with Polocks. Then of course the Mexicans are dominating in the southern US today.

Side note: At least from what I know, people from all over Germany came to America, not just Bavaria. Lots of northern Germans came to America from the Hamburg/Schwerin area (many non-Catholics, but still some), and many came from the Rhine area (mainly Catholics).
 
I think the people who post on this site are more conservative than average. Most Catholics I know are quite tolerant of differences, and are from all parts of the political spectrum.

I don’t see the Church as either liberal or conservative. It is conservative on some things, such as abortion; but liberal on workers’ rights, immigration, the right of workers to organize, capital punishment, and social justice.
People on this site are VERY conservative. And I’d say the Church is either very conservative or very liberal, depending on what the issue is. I don’t see much grey area on most topics. Of course, it balances out so the Church is more towards the middle than the religious right.
 
I never viewed the Irish as conservative, because Boston is very Irish and liberal. 🤷 What can I say? You learn something new everyday.

Also, I’d say it depended on where you lived. Polish Catholics dominated in the Midwest, except in Milwaukee, which had a ton of Germans, along with Polocks. Then of course the Mexicans are dominating in the southern US today.

Side note: At least from what I know, people from all over Germany came to America, not just Bavaria. Lots of northern Germans came to America from the Hamburg/Schwerin area (many non-Catholics, but still some), and many came from the Rhine area (mainly Catholics).
Yes, but the church was dominated by the Irish. so much so that Irish predjudice in the church caused a scism and the foundation of the Polish National Catholic Church in the Scranton, Pa. area.
Polish coal miners were recruited in Silesia (now Poland, then German) by mine owners to replace rebellious Irish miners. The Poles were totally ignorant of this. All they knew is that they were given jobs in the US. The Poles brought priests with them, and bought land and built Polish churches with their hard earned nickels and dimes.
The Bishop of Scranton was Irish and resented the Poles. He ordered that only English could be used for the Gospel and Sermon (which the moners couldn’t understand), demanded that the ownership of the Polish churches be turned over to him and refused to recognize the validity of the Polish priests. The Poles protested to Rome, but the Irish in the US had more political clout with the Vatican and the Poles lost. So, many of the ethnic Polish parishes broke away from the Church and founded the PNCC. Reconciliation was not achieved until JP II a Pole became Pope.
Even the Italians did not escape the predjudice of the Irish clergy in the US. The only reason that their Bishops dared not do anything to the Italians was because they knew that they would lose any appeal to Rome because the Pope was Italian.
 
Yes, but the church was dominated by the Irish. so much so that Irish predjudice in the church caused a scism and the foundation of the Polish National Catholic Church in the Scranton, Pa. area.
Polish coal miners were recruited in Silesia (now Poland, then German) by mine owners to replace rebellious Irish miners. The Poles were totally ignorant of this. All they knew is that they were given jobs in the US. The Poles brought priests with them, and bought land and built Polish churches with their hard earned nickels and dimes.
The Bishop of Scranton was Irish and resented the Poles. He ordered that only English could be used for the Gospel and Sermon (which the moners couldn’t understand), demanded that the ownership of the Polish churches be turned over to him and refused to recognize the validity of the Polish priests. The Poles protested to Rome, but the Irish in the US had more political clout with the Vatican and the Poles lost. So, many of the ethnic Polish parishes broke away from the Church and founded the PNCC. Reconciliation was not achieved until JP II a Pole became Pope.
Even the Italians did not escape the predjudice of the Irish clergy in the US. The only reason that their Bishops dared not do anything to the Italians was because they knew that they would lose any appeal to Rome because the Pope was Italian.
I’m surprised that the Irish would be picking on the Polish and Italians since they were kind of picked on a century before. I know Germans were discriminated against because of the World Wars, but…
 
It varies from province to province too.

For example, Newfoundland’s Catholicism is almost identical to Ireland and England’s, Scotland and Wales’s. (even though the latter three are mostly Protestant countries, the Catholic traditions I am referring too). I.e, strong devotion to St Patrick and St George, and Our Lady!

Nova Scotia is mostly a Scottish makeup, and a lot of the Catholic population who are of Scottish descent, is very similar to Scottish Catholicism, in that there is a strong devotion to St Andrew.

But, places like Quebec and New Brunswick, the Catholicism is very French, and so are parts of Newfoundland where French is spoken.

Though, all the beliefs are the same, only the culture is different.
 
First of all when talking about Canada you have to distinguish between French Canada and English Canada. Catholicism among the latter is often more the product of immigration, whereas for French Canada, it is much more homogeneous.

That said among our US brethren, I too notice more polarization; more “us vs them” and “circle the wagons” mentality, much like in US politics. I also find US Catholicism among the conservatives much more strictly legalistic. And more tendency to allow politics and religion to mix. Perhaps that’s from hanging around on this forum however. I saw a lot of this on the “pray with Protestants” thread.

That said, to a lesser extent I see similar differences between French and English Canada. The English seem much stickier about the details. Two anecdotes. Once, I went to an English Mass. I am mother-tongue French, and rarely go to an English Mass. The layout of the missalettes is different; the English one is a daily missalette and the French one, a Sunday-only (a daily one is available but rarely distributed in the church, people instead subscribe to it). I lost my place and was stumbling with the Our Father, which I can only recite from memory in French or Latin, and was sternly tsk-tsked by a lady in my pew. I did not appreciate her meddling especially as I had only recently returned to the faith.

Two years ago I went to Mass at the Cathedral in Hamilton, Ontario. It was pointed out repeatedly before Mass started that ONLY Catholics were to come up for communion, and ONLY Catholics could be invited to bring up the offerings. Technically correct but never ever heard in a French-speaking assembly in Quebec.

Until Vatican-II, Catholicism in Quebec was very similar to Ireland, that is, tinged with a hint of Jansenism. It was a very severe and scrupulous form of Catholicism, with much emphasis on mortal sin, hell, the depravity of man, and very negative. In fact the French Canadians and Irish had a lot in common and a grudging respect for each other, probably united in a common dislike for the English.

Vatican-II coincided with the "quiet revolution " in Quebec (the emancipation of French-speaking Canadians) when Quebecers tossed out a very conservative and pro-Church government. Most Quebecers left the Church in droves in that era (my era: I’m 53 and I was one of those who left only to come back 22 years later). Those that stayed, appear to have embraced Vatican-II wholeheartedly, with both the positives and negatives that implies (as a lover of Gregorian chant, I am saddened by the wholesale destruction of traditions); Quebec Catholics tend to be very liberal, with a “live and let live” attitude, and tend as was pointed out with our Catholic Prime Ministers, to compartmentalize their faith and not express it so much in public. There is some resurgent interest in Quebec for certain things like Gregorian chant; the gorgeous high-altar in the cathedral in Chicoutimi had been relegated to basement storage but was recently restored and put back in place. But you’ll find that’s often mostly among younger Catholics. Many of the V-II era (in their 50s, 60s and 70s) remain fiercely opposed to the return to more traditional values. That’s the era that saddled us with the most insipid Church music imaginable, with tunes worthy of a laundry soap ad jingle. However these folks remember a backward, ghettoized faith and want nothing to do with it; in the pre-Vatican II era it was normal in Quebec for families to have 10-15 children, and this contributed to keeping Quebec poor and backwards. They will reject anything that reminds them of that era.

I myself tend to be very conservative liturgically (although I fully embrace the OF Mass, I just want to see it properly celebrated and the use of chant expanded), but adopt a “live and let live” attitude in daily life, preferring to concentrate on my own inner conversion, and preferring to evangelize Benedictine-style, by leading a quiet life of example (or at least trying) rather than overt proselytizing, which really turns me off (too many folks confuse evangelizing with proselytizing). I also think that too much emphasis on mortal sin with disregard for psychology and pastoral care can be harmful, it’s negative, and results in imperfect contrition as we do things out of fear of hell rather than love of God. True transformation comes not from legalism but from inner conversion and I sense a lack of that notion in people who self-identify as “conservatives” or “traditionalists”. But on the flip side the excessive liberalism in Quebec grates too: it’s not through an “anything goes” attitude that we can achieve inner conversion either, and sometimes we need to be challenged out of our comfort zones and complacency! I do find that as a Benedictine Oblate the contemplative side of Benedictine spirituality does, for me at least, foster inner conversion. In brief I reject both polarizations, “traditionalist” (or “conservative”) and liberal and prefer to just try and quietly live an orthodox faith.

I know these are mostly generalizations and anecdotal observations, but it is the sense I get.
 
Yes, but the church was dominated by the Irish. so much so that Irish predjudice in the church caused a scism and the foundation of the Polish National Catholic Church in the Scranton, Pa. area.
Polish coal miners were recruited in Silesia (now Poland, then German) by mine owners to replace rebellious Irish miners. The Poles were totally ignorant of this. All they knew is that they were given jobs in the US. The Poles brought priests with them, and bought land and built Polish churches with their hard earned nickels and dimes.
The Bishop of Scranton was Irish and resented the Poles. He ordered that only English could be used for the Gospel and Sermon (which the moners couldn’t understand), demanded that the ownership of the Polish churches be turned over to him and refused to recognize the validity of the Polish priests. The Poles protested to Rome, but the Irish in the US had more political clout with the Vatican and the Poles lost. So, many of the ethnic Polish parishes broke away from the Church and founded the PNCC. Reconciliation was not achieved until JP II a Pole became Pope.
Even the Italians did not escape the predjudice of the Irish clergy in the US. The only reason that their Bishops dared not do anything to the Italians was because they knew that they would lose any appeal to Rome because the Pope was Italian.
George that is fascinating…it makes a lot of sense in how the Catholic Church south of our border developed…thanks for taking the time and sharing this … JFK was also Irish Catholic and I always looked up to him and his generation as the holders and keepers of the separation of Church and State…so would this be an Irish Catholic value and if so how has it - on your take -changed since JFK? Thnaks…
 
I’m surprised that the Irish would be picking on the Polish and Italians since they were kind of picked on a century before. I know Germans were discriminated against because of the World Wars, but…
It seems that humanity (not just Catholicism) really have a hard time on learning lessons of history…now who are we resentful of…I know in Canada, it is new immigrants now…as “they are taking our jobs” and “bringing their culture into our systems”…stuff like that…sometimes we are just a very stupid species…and I haven’t even begun on how our species is self-destructing us and trying to take the earth with us…only if we listen to the wisdom of scripture, the teachings of the church and to our hearts in our relationship with Creator and Jesus through the Spirit…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
It varies from province to province too.

For example, Newfoundland’s Catholicism is almost identical to Ireland and England’s, Scotland and Wales’s. (even though the latter three are mostly Protestant countries, the Catholic traditions I am referring too). I.e, strong devotion to St Patrick and St George, and Our Lady!

Nova Scotia is mostly a Scottish makeup, and a lot of the Catholic population who are of Scottish descent, is very similar to Scottish Catholicism, in that there is a strong devotion to St Andrew.

But, places like Quebec and New Brunswick, the Catholicism is very French, and so are parts of Newfoundland where French is spoken.

Though, all the beliefs are the same, only the culture is different.
Agreed LoyalViews, well said! My particular background “blinds” me to my understanding and that is a background in Algonquin territory which is now Quebec…and I studied in Brandon, MB…so learned a lot about the Catholic Church and Louis Riel…blocking the Orange Loyalists (I thinll…bad history person here) from making Canada an English Protestant only country…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
Loyal Views Blogspot…thanks for pointing out your blog…I took a quick look at it and it looks very good visually, and I will take the time to read from it…looks like I can learn a lot from you and your blog…look forward to our future discussions.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
Ora Labora…thanks for your views and ways of seeing things in Quebec…my mom is from Maniwaki, QC…and your characterization of contemporay Catholics of french background is very true for me…many in the Catholic Answers mistake my “live and let live” Aboriginal and French atttitude as one of a liberal or smorgasboard catholic so I have done work to distinguish my take a bit better for our conservative and traditionalist brothers and sisters in the faith…

I am 54 and share much with you in experiential history and Quebec…and I do appreciate your thinking about chanting and so forth…while I like folk masses and quitars in our liturgy…I would like to see a balance of them more in our daily masses, etc. The diversity in liturgical expression for me is important because I see the potential of introducing aboriginal expressions of songs, etc… one traditionalist who liked what I was saying indicated that in a global church I should have as much rights to hearing mass with a respectful use of hand drums as others have in hearing some songs in Gregorian and Latin.

I noticed you are attached in some way to the Benedictines…these guys and nuns are my heros…when I was a kid I spent a lot of time in the Benedictine Abbey here in Mission BC and dream of visting Mt. Angel in Oregon one of these days…the religious life is powerful and a real testament to the possibility of total focus on Our Lord and all things spiritual while having a fulfilling and happy life…

Look forward to your thoughs…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
Regarding ethnic origins, it seems virtually all the Catholics in my area are mutts coming from Irish, German, English, Italian, and Polish origins primarily, and various other ethnic groups. Almost no Hispanics, other than some young farm workers who never seem to go to mass.

Generally there’s not much difference compared to the surrounding Protestant population.
 
The US is having some serious turmoil right now… mostly over fiscal politics. But the Social political agenda is also dividing the nation.

Unlike Canada, the US isn’t really given to concensus. It’s given to dictatorial majority rule… the majority gets their way at the expense of the minority. And, in the last 50 years, it appears that the House and Senate are “rich boy clubs” no longer terribly responsible to the people… and compromise is seen as a failure by both sides.

Which means, really, that things are likely to get much worse on the civil side. And that usually means large social power blocks, even if not terribly politically active, get targeted for oppression and violence. There are few social blocks as big as the Catholic Church…

And while oppression is bad for the faithful, it’s always been good for the faith. Even if the US winds up in a civil war, the upcoming unrest will be good for the church overall. A persecuted church is usually one that comes away much stronger. Just look at the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church… Catholicism in the Ukraine is as strong as ever, and more vibrant than in centuries.
 
Then today its mostly South American Catholics.
Mexico and the Central America countries (Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala) --which is where most of the immigration is coming from–are on North America continent.
 
as a Canadian Catholic I am seeing some remarkable differences in soci-cultural thinking between American and Canadian Catholics…its really neat…do others share that perception with me?
Not really, because I haven’t met too many Canadian Catholics on CAF, let alone real life. But that’s part of the reason I’m on this thread.😛
 
Not really, because I haven’t met too many Canadian Catholics on CAF, let alone real life. But that’s part of the reason I’m on this thread.😛
Very cool, we say “eh” alot 🙂 What is *Religion: future Catholic in elca * mean? Where you state your affiliation or denomination…I have never seen those acronyms before…

Cheerz eh!

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
 
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