Candidates for a Sui Juris Church?

[Nestor_kea]

And one more thing:

• Slovak GCC - Metropolia in Slovakia and eparchy in Canada, only name “Slovak” and nationality (“gentilia”) of most of their faithful is common to them,
• Hungarian GCC - eparchy and exarchate in Hungary, both direct subjects to the Holy See,
• Italo-albanians are three entities which are jurisdictionaly separate,
• …

Surely you would find (many) other examples of exarchates or eparchies which are “out of” their mother churches and are usually direct subject not connected with them, only by name. I think there are also Romanians in the USA but now when Romanian GCC is Major Archepiscopal they are probably more connected with them, not only “separate entity”.

 

[CDB1718]

The people from the Transcarpathian Mountains with a “Ruthenian” culture are divided between jurisdictions, depending on where they now live. Because of their diaspora, they needed pastoral support that the bishops back home were unable to give for the same reasons people were leaving. That set up a situation where new jurisdictions were created wherever they went, most of which reported to Rome.

Now that the mother eparchy is re-establishing herself, the Ruthenians are in a state of flux trying to figure out what relationships the jurisdictions want to have with each other and with Rome. They do not want to be subsumed into the larger Ukrainian Church so there’s a push for discussing the Ruthenian people as culturally, racially, and historically distinct from Ukrainians and united with each other. The Ruthenians have been in a diaspora for a long time so now they’re culturally distinct from each other, too, making the only source of unity the mother eparchy who is still in flux, isolated, attending the Ukrainian synod while maintaining it’s separateness.

That are many possible ways forward. One is to establish a patriarchal church with Mukačevo overseeing the diasporic churches. Ukrainian patriarchy is already contentious as the largest Eastern Catholic Church doesn’t have its patriarchy recognized. With Mukačevo not ready for that yet, nothing is pinned down and the Ruthenians are left to continue to develop in whatever ways meet the needs of the faithful.

1. 
   *]Eparchy of Mukačevo in Ukraine (jurisdiction: Mukačevo region)
   *]the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh (jurisdiction: United States)
   *]Slovak Greek Catholic Metropolitan Church sui iuris (jurisdiction: Slovakia and Canada currently)
   *]Apostolic Exarchate in the Czech Republic (jurisdiction: Czech Republic)
   *]Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (jurisdiction: worldwide)

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Knanaya are not a Church. They are both a claimed ethnicity and an Indian subculture, and span several churches, tho mostly the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, and the Malankara Orthodox Church.

The Syro-Malabar Metropolia for the Knanaya is a particular church, but is essentially a personal prelature for Malabar Knanaya in India. It does not represent all Knanaya, and doesn’t even have all the Syro-Malabar Knanaya.

Just a small correction, the Knanaya Orthodox belong to the Malankara Knanaya Archdiocese of the Syriac Orthodox Church. There are no Knanaya hierarchy or jurisdiction in the Malankara Orthodox Church.

 

[Thomas48]

The Knanaya are not a Church. They are both a claimed ethnicity and an Indian subculture, and span several churches, tho mostly the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, and the Malankara Orthodox Church.

The Syro-Malabar Metropolia for the Knanaya is a particular church, but is essentially a personal prelature for Malabar Knanaya in India. It does not represent all Knanaya, and doesn’t even have all the Syro-Malabar Knanaya.

The Knanaya Catholics in India hail from only one diocese in the Syro Malabar Church and that diocese(Kottayam) has a mix between Malabar Knanaya and Malankara Knanayas. Kottayam Archdiocese has a total of 139 Churches, the ratio between Malabar and Malankara is about 129 to 10 parishes. Malankara Knanaya apart of Kottayam Diocese have been granted their own Vicar General to take care of their pastoral needs.

The Knanaya Jacobites as SyroMalankara explained are apart of the Syriac Orthodox Church and similarly to the Catholics they have their own Archdiocese(Chingavanam) and four bishops. Kottayam Archdiocese and Chingavanam Archdiocese are the only two Knanaya Christian footholds.

Perhaps Thomas, I couldn’t answer that one for you because I’m not buff either haha but since you are a Knanaya yourself could you give us some insight on Peters second theory? Do the Knanaya Catholics want a Sui Juris for themselves separate from the Syro Malabar Church?

Now to answer your question Catechesis, KCS or Knanaya Catholic Society, which is the Knanaya Catholic Lay Organization of highest ranking, holds an annual assembly in Kottayam. The assembly composes of the Knanaya Metropolitan, KCS leaders, and Knanayas from across the globe. At the assembly they speak of many different topics that affect Knanaya Catholics and sometimes the topic of a Sui Juris Church comes up. At one of the most recent assemblies the topic of a Sui Juris was talked about for hours on end with different speakers and leaders. From the cheers and shouts of the crowd it was quite evident that Knanayas long for their own particular church.

KCS strongly composed to Mar Moolakattu that we feel like second class citizens in the Syro Malabar Church and that with our separate traditions and customs it is only just that one day we could be granted a Sui Juris Church of our own. Mar Moolakattu expressed his opinion that he greatly supported the idea of our own Sui Juris but advised KCS that it will take time and effort to achieve this goal. Since the assurance and support of our Metropolitan was given, Knanaya Catholics have been working hard towards this goal. An ecclesiastic committee for the creation of a Knanaya Catholic sui juris was established under Kottayam Archdiocese to administer to this mission.

 

[Peter_J]

Now to answer your question Catechesis, KCS or Knanaya Catholic Society, which is the Knanaya Catholic Lay Organization of highest ranking, holds an annual assembly in Kottayam. The assembly composes of the Knanaya Metropolitan, KCS leaders, and Knanayas from across the globe. At the assembly they speak of many different topics that affect Knanaya Catholics and sometimes the topic of a Sui Juris Church comes up. At one of the most recent assemblies the topic of a Sui Juris was talked about for hours on end with different speakers and leaders. From the cheers and shouts of the crowd it was quite evident that Knanayas long for their own particular church.

Maybe so, but that desire is incompatible with the desire to continue the endogamy policy.

 

[Thomas48]

Maybe so, but that desire is incompatible with the desire to continue the endogamy policy.

And there is the underlying problem, though none of us can be sure because the final verdict will all be determined by the judgement of Pope Francis.

 

[Thomas48]

Maybe so, but that desire is incompatible with the desire to continue the endogamy policy.

And there is the underlying problem, though none of us can be sure because the final verdict will all be determined by the judgement of Francis Mar Papa.

 

[malphono]

From the cheers and shouts of the crowd it was quite evident that Knanayas long for their own particular church.

Maybe so, but that desire is incompatible with the desire to continue the endogamy policy.

Cheers and shouts from the crowd are all fine and dandy, the more the merrier, but under what basis is this longing for a so-called “sui juris” Church? Apparently it’s strictly this business of endogamy, and that is certainly not valid grounds. As I’ve said in other threads, I have no problem with Knanaya practices per-se, (provided they don’t impinge on the rights of non-Knanaya), but how can these practices translate into anything more than what currently exists in Kottayam?

 

[5Loaves]

I pray that the Russian Greek Catholics get their own sui juris church. Their situation is really a shame indeed.

What would you envision?

 

[Thomas48]

Cheers and shouts from the crowd are all fine and dandy, the more the merrier, but under what basis is this longing for a so-called “sui juris” Church? Apparently it’s strictly this business of endogamy, and that is certainly not valid grounds. As I’ve said in other threads, I have no problem with Knanaya practices per-se, (provided they don’t impinge on the rights of non-Knanaya), but how can these practices translate into anything more than what currently exists in Kottayam?

Well really Malphono I guess you could say, and this is only from my knowledge of what was brought up in the Knanaya Global Assembly in Kottayam, Knanaya Catholics want independence. The Syro Malabar Church is barring and seems to hold us back from progress of any sort. A few examples include, Knanayas petition for a diocese in North India and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, Knanayas petition for a suffragan diocese in the city of Kalyan in Kerala and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, and the best example above all of these is the crisis in North America.

You see, out of Kottayam Knanayas do not have the right to practice the communities customs and as we all know Knanayas are not only situated in Kottayam but all over the world. There may be a Syro Malabar Diocese where the Knanaya diaspora are located but that diocese waters down or completely disallows the practice. Basically Knanayas want the freedom to practice our customs wholey wherever we may go. One hundred years of having our own diocese,parishes, bishops, priests, and all other facilities has given the people the feel that the Knanaya Catholic Community is not just a community but the Knanaya Catholic Church. The first speaker of the assembly was ever so bold to even call Mar Mathew Moolakattu our Major Archbishop. Among the St. Thomas Christians most people already see Knanaya Catholics as having there own particular church, so why not grant an official Sui Juris?

 

[malphono]

Well really Malphono I guess you could say, and this is only from my knowledge of what was brought up in the Knanaya Global Assembly in Kottayam, Knanaya Catholics want independence. The Syro Malabar Church is barring and seems to hold us back from progress of any sort. A few examples include, Knanayas petition for a diocese in North India and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, Knanayas petition for a suffragan diocese in the city of Kalyan in Kerala and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, and the best example above all of these is the crisis in North America.

It has to do with the terms of the elevation of Kottayam as a “Metropolitan See without suffragans” as shown on the Archeparchial website.

As for the status of Knanaya in the US, we’ve sort of been through that in the early stages of the [thread=740980]Should this be permitted? Your opinions please[/thread] thread. I don’t see a reason to rehash it all here.

 

[SyroMalankara]

You see, out of Kottayam Knanayas do not have the right to practice the communities customs and as we all know Knanayas are not only situated in Kottayam but all over the world.

Who is stopping you or anyone else?

There may be a Syro Malabar Diocese where the Knanaya diaspora are located but that diocese waters down or completely disallows the practice. Basically Knanayas want the freedom to practice our customs wholey wherever we may go.

How are you being stopped?

One hundred years of having our own diocese,parishes, bishops, priests, and all other facilities has given the people the feel that the Knanaya Catholic Community is not just a community but the Knanaya Catholic Church.

For one hundred years and more, whites in America felt blacks were not human. What does feeling have to do with anything?

The first speaker of the assembly was ever so bold to even call Mar Mathew Moolakattu our Major Archbishop.

Similarly, Jefferson Davis was once called President.

Among the St. Thomas Christians most people already see Knanaya Catholics as having there own particular church, so why not grant an official Sui Juris?

No St. Thomas Christians do not see Knanayas as their own Church, most see Knanayas as exclusionary, and a social club. Why not continue this on your own if you like?

 

[Peter_J]

Well really Malphono I guess you could say, and this is only from my knowledge of what was brought up in the Knanaya Global Assembly in Kottayam, Knanaya Catholics want independence. The Syro Malabar Church is barring and seems to hold us back from progress of any sort. A few examples include, Knanayas petition for a diocese in North India and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, Knanayas petition for a suffragan diocese in the city of Kalyan in Kerala and the Syro Malabar Church denies it, and the best example above all of these is the crisis in North America.

You see, out of Kottayam Knanayas do not have the right to practice the communities customs and as we all know Knanayas are not only situated in Kottayam but all over the world. There may be a Syro Malabar Diocese where the Knanaya diaspora are located but that diocese waters down or completely disallows the practice. Basically Knanayas want the freedom to practice our customs wholey wherever we may go. One hundred years of having our own diocese,parishes, bishops, priests, and all other facilities has given the people the feel that the Knanaya Catholic Community is not just a community but the Knanaya Catholic Church. The first speaker of the assembly was ever so bold to even call Mar Mathew Moolakattu our Major Archbishop. Among the St. Thomas Christians most people already see Knanaya Catholics as having there own particular church, so why not grant an official Sui Juris?

But do those who want it understand that it wouldn’t be just Knanayas? Or more precisely, it might initially be just Knanayas, be eventually it would also include e.g. people with a Knanaya father and non-Knanaya mother.

 

[Thomas48]

Who is stopping you or anyone else?

How are you being stopped?

For one hundred years and more, whites in America felt blacks were not human. What does feeling have to do with anything?

Similarly, Jefferson Davis was once called President.

No St. Thomas Christians do not see Knanayas as their own Church, most see Knanayas as exclusionary, and a social club. Why not continue this on your own if you like?

White racism and Knanaya endogamy cannot be compared that’s a wild accusation to even put the two in the same category. How are we being stopped? Endogamy cannot be wholey practiced in Knanaya Parishes outside of Kottayam Diocese, this is the situation in the U.S, Canada, Europe, and the Middle East. Knanaya Parishes = Endogamy, not the watered down form that is allowed outside of Kottayam Diocese.

I would think the St. Thomas Christians do see us as our own Church, a good example is Nilackal Ecumenical Church, the names of all St. Thomas Christian Church heads are included on the foundation stone. If you look at the stone you will see that the names of Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry and the then Knanaya Jacobite Metropolitan are included.

But do those who want it understand that it wouldn’t be just Knanayas? Or more precisely, it might initially be just Knanayas, be eventually it would also include e.g. people with a Knanaya father and non-Knanaya mother.

Ah well we can not say what the exact set up would be until the subject is brought to Romes attention. It is known tho that the previous metropolitan of Kottayam Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry approached John Paul II Mar Papa with the question of a Sui Juris for Knanaya Catholics, note at this same time the Syro Malabar Church was planning to raise Kottayam Diocese to an Archdiocese, It is said that the Mar Papa replied to Mar Kuriakose in a letter stating “Forget the archdiocese, lets move towards a Sui Juris” but with his timely death the plan was never put into action.

 

[Peter_J]

White racism and Knanaya endogamy cannot be compared that’s a wild accusation to even put the two in the same category.

I’m assuming that SyroMalankara’s point was in the next sentence, “What does feeling have to do with anything?”

 

[SyroMalankara]

White racism and Knanaya endogamy cannot be compared that’s a wild accusation to even put the two in the same category.

How about this: For over a thousand years high caste Indians felt that other castes were less than human and treated them as such. What does feelings have to do with anything?

How are we being stopped? Endogamy cannot be wholey practiced in Knanaya Parishes outside of Kottayam Diocese, this is the situation in the U.S, Canada, Europe, and the Middle East. Knanaya Parishes = Endogamy, not the watered down form that is allowed outside of Kottayam Diocese.

There is no such rule in any Catholic or Orthodox Church worldwide whereas a parish = endogamy. Ever. In history.
Individual Knanaya are free to practice whatever they want.

I would think the St. Thomas Christians do see us as our own Church, a good example is Nilackal Ecumenical Church, the names of all St. Thomas Christian Church heads are included on the foundation stone. If you look at the stone you will see that the names of Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry and the then Knanaya Jacobite Metropolitan are included.

The names of protestant clergy are on there as well. What of it? According to Catholics and Orthodox, they are simple layman with fancy dress. This proves nothing.

It is known tho that the previous metropolitan of Kottayam Mar Kuriakose Kunnacherry approached John Paul II Mar Papa with the question of a Sui Juris for Knanaya Catholics, note at this same time the Syro Malabar Church was planning to raise Kottayam Diocese to an Archdiocese, It is said that the Mar Papa replied to Mar Kuriakose in a letter stating “Forget the archdiocese, lets move towards a Sui Juris” but with his timely death the plan was never put into action.

Who said this? Sounds like apocryphal legend.

 

[Thomas48]

How about this: For over a thousand years high caste Indians felt that other castes were less than human and treated them as such. What does feelings have to do with anything?

St. Thomas Christians treated the Knanaya in the same retrospect, we are not the only ones to blame but everyone seems to blame us because we openly practice endogamy. The mutual enmity for each other only died down in the 20th century and I would think and hope completely disappeared in the 21st century.

There is no such rule in any Catholic or Orthodox Church worldwide whereas a parish = endogamy. Ever. In history.
Individual Knanaya are free to practice whatever they want.

I would think when St. Pius Mar Papa created Kottayam Diocese exclusively for the Knanaya Catholics in 1911 and when Patriarch Mor Ignatios Abded-Aloho II Sattuf created Chingavanam Diocese exclusively for Knanaya Jacobites, the phrase Endogamy = Parish comes to mind.

“On August 29, 1911 a new Vicariate Apostolic of Kottayam was erected exclusively for the Knanaya Community by the Apostolic letter “In Universi Christiani” of His Holiness Pope St Pius X. On December 21, 1923 the Vicariate Apostolic of Kottayam was raised to an Eparchy by Pope Pius XI.” (Kottayamad.org)

The names of protestant clergy are on there as well. What of it? According to Catholics and Orthodox, they are simple layman with fancy dress. This proves nothing.

I’m not sure but I’ve always heard people calling the Knanaya, the Knanaya Sabha which means Particular Church or Group and is only used when you speak about an independent church like the Syro Malabar Sabha. Perhaps we’ve met different people so we probably wouldn’t be able to come to a conclusion about this but If I may add on, even my Malankara Orthodox neighbors continually call it “The Knanaya Sabha” when we talk about Church matters.

Who said this? Sounds like apocryphal legend.

Well actually, Mar Moolakkattu himself said this during the KCS Assembly in Kottayam.

 

[Catechesis]

Endogamy aside, I think Knanaya can have a chance at a Sui Juris but with endogamy I’m not so sure but maybe like Thomas said it all depends on what Pope Francis and Rome decrees.

 

[Aramis]

Current canon law bars endogamy on the Church Sui Iuris level, by granting rights that the practice of Endogamy amongst the Knanaya of the SMCC is incompatible with.

To be blunt: for the SMCC to become a Church Sui Iuris it would need to give up endogamy, or the Church as a whole would need to give up on the CCEO, several other binding decrees and apostolic letters, and a number of other issues. The right of a wife to enter the husband’s church sui iuris was established by the Vatican II council; it was later encoded into the CCEO. It was hinted at by 3 popes prior to Vatican II, including Pope St. Pius X.

The Knanaya want to self govern their church? Then give up endogamy of the church itself. But if they give up endogamy, then they have little that differentiates them from the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malenkara, and the Orthodox parallels.

 

[Thomas48]

Current canon law bars endogamy on the Church Sui Iuris level, by granting rights that the practice of Endogamy amongst the Knanaya of the SMCC is incompatible with.

To be blunt: for the SMCC to become a Church Sui Iuris it would need to give up endogamy, or the Church as a whole would need to give up on the CCEO, several other binding decrees and apostolic letters, and a number of other issues. The right of a wife to enter the husband’s church sui iuris was established by the Vatican II council; it was later encoded into the CCEO. It was hinted at by 3 popes prior to Vatican II, including Pope St. Pius X.

The Knanaya want to self govern their church? Then give up endogamy of the church itself. But if they give up endogamy, then they have little that differentiates them from the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malenkara, and the Orthodox parallels.

I wouldn’t say completely parallels because there’s a whole list of separate traditions and customs that the Knanaya celebrate and the Thomas Christians don’t but yes Aramis you make a very valid point. I guess you could say within the Syro Malabar Church, Knanaya Endogamy is administered, without the Syro Malabar Church it takes things out of proportion. One thing that confuses me though, is that many of you say it is not possible for a Knanaya Sui Juris yet John Paul II Mar Papa was ready to create one?

Also please anyone who reads this thread or any thread where I have written that Knanayas long for a Sui Juris of there own, please understand we are not a separatist community. Knanayas revere and honor their mother churches like no other, for me the Syro Malabar Church and for the Knanaya Jacobites the Syriac Orthodox Church. The idea of a separate Sui Juris is just an idea that seems hopeful to the Knanayas it is not one that is fueled for by hate of the Syro Malabar Church/etc. I and I think I can speak for the rest of the community when I say this but we all have a high level of respect for the Syro Malabar Church, because without them there would be no Kottayam Diocese.