Cannabis Use Not Sinful if Only Used to Feel Good, (but not to excess)?

[kmktexas]

Ghosty:

eyeCalypso: More importantly, the U.S. government is not lawful. It stands in direct contridiction to Natural Law. If it were a lawful government, then it would be sinful to disobey its drug laws.

This is a really extreme suggestion but it doesn’t matter. It is hard to claim that a democratically elected government is not lawful. However, even if the government was not lawful, we would still be called to obey any moral laws that govenment decrees. If a completely illegitamate govenment declared that murder and rape were illegal, we have no moral justification to commit murder and rape just because the government is illegitimate. If on the other hand the same government required murder or rape be committed, we could disobey the law, not because of the illegitimacy of the government **but because ** of the immorality of the law.

 

[kmktexas]

eyeCalypso:

Ahh, here’s a point I don’t think anyone’s raised here. Is prohibition of marijuana either moral or natural?

Marijuana is a plant (made by God Himself). What could be more unnatural than making nature itself illegal?

Also in 2000 years of marijuana use, not a single death is ever attributed to using marijuana. No OD’s. Also, no study has shown that lung, heart or any other disease has ever been linked to marijuana use. It’s not physically addictive. Apparently it’s a benign substance that does very little harm to the body, even when smoked. So what’s immoral about consuming marijuana?

Could one rightly suggest that the prohibition of marijuana is unjust?

The law does not require us to do anything immoral or against natural law. Natural Law doesn’t mean that if it comes from nature, it must be legal.

Marijuana is an unregulated intoxicating substance. As such, the govenment can chose to regulate its production and sale or it can chose to make the production and sale of it illegal. Both are legitimate uses of law. The US govenment has chosen the latter course. Whether it is harmful or not is irrelevant. Moonshine liquor is also illegal, not becaue it is more addicting then Johnny Walker nor more likely to cause cirrosis of the liver. Tobacco cigarettes are legal even though they are harmful. That is not the issue.

If a Catholic disobeys the law regarding marijuana use, he or she sins.

 

[fix]

kmktexas:

The law does not require us to do anything immoral or against natural law. Natural Law doesn’t mean that if it comes from nature, it must be legal.

Marijuana is an unregulated intoxicating substance. As such, the govenment can chose to regulate its production and sale or it can chose to make the production and sale of it illegal. Both are legitimate uses of law. The US govenment has chosen the latter course. Whether it is harmful or not is irrelevant. Moonshine liquor is also illegal, not becaue it is more addicting then Johnny Walker nor more likely to cause cirrosis of the liver. Tobacco cigarettes are legal even though they are harmful. That is not the issue.

If a Catholic disobeys the law regarding marijuana use, he or she sins.

Thanks. It amazes me how many Catholics think intentionally breaking the civil law is not a sin.

 

[Michael_C]

eyeCalypso:

Marijuana is a plant (made by God Himself). What could be more unnatural than making nature itself illegal?

Heroine comes from a plant also. I believe if you smoke pot you either get high or you don’t. There’s no such thing as smoking “a little” pot, as if there’s a difference if you smoke alot of pot.

 

[Ghosty]

You are arguing that the Church teaches that the USA is not a legitimate government. You base this on your private interpretation of the CCC? Do you have any source from the Church to prove your claim? Certainly abortion laws are unjust and the Church has stated so, but where has the Church stated all other just laws may be disobeyed?

The Church has simply stated what defines a legitimate government, and I’m applying those rules to the U.S. To my knowledge, the Church has said nothing specific to the U.S. in any direction. It’s no different than the guidelines issued about how to vote morally; they do not indicate any particular candidate by name, but rather leave it up to us individually to apply the moral guidelines the Church provides. The Church is not in the game of politics, only morality; we have to apply that morality correctly. In the absence of a specific statement, which I see no likelyhood of ever occuring (the Church, rightly IMO, didn’t specifically denounce Nazi Germany, so how can we expect it to specifically denounce much lesser evils) I am simply left to my own moral compass, which I’ve seen no indication from anyone here is off.

Smoking pot in the USA is a sin, unless the law has an exemption for medical use and one has a Rx from a physician.

I already indicated that it’s in the process of decriminalization in some areas, so the application of laws varies from place to place in the U.S.

kmktexas: Democratic elections do not make a government lawful or legitimate. Read the CCC, the guidelines are pretty specific. The authority of a government rests not in the fact that it’s a government, nor in whether or not it’s democratically elected, but in whether or not it upholds the Natural Law and protects the common good. No upholding of the natural law = no legitimacy. The CCC seems pretty clear on this. A government has the authority to issue laws that don’t deal with Natural Law precisely because it is legitimated by upholding Natural Law. How can a government that lacks the moral legitimacy, as defined explicitly in the CCC, have the authority that comes from possessing moral legitimacy?

The discussion of when it is appropriate to disobey laws that violate the Natural Order is like putting the cart before the horse. The definition of legitimate authority is found in the segments I posted, the duties of citizens to follow civil laws comes well after the definition of a legitimate government:

2234 God’s fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it.

The definition of receiving authority from God is dealt with in the section I’ve been refering to.

 

[fix]

Ghosty:

The Church has simply stated what defines a legitimate government, and I’m applying those rules to the U.S. To my knowledge, the Church has said nothing specific to the U.S. in any direction. It’s no different than the guidelines issued about how to vote morally; they do not indicate any particular candidate by name, but rather leave it up to us individually to apply the moral guidelines the Church provides.

That does not prove that the USA is not a legitimate government, it is your opinion which may very well be wrong.

(the Church, rightly IMO, didn’t specifically denounce Nazi Germany,

The Pope thought denouncing the Nazis would cuase more harm. Indiviual Bishops did denounce the Nazi government. I have heard no US bishops declare that the USA is illegitimate and the Pope saying he was correct.

I am simply left to my own moral compass, which I’ve seen no indication from anyone here is off.

This is the same compass claiming violating a civil law is not a sin which is contrary to Catholic teaching?

I already indicated that it’s in the process of decriminalization in some areas, so the application of laws varies from place to place in the U.S.

Where it is illegal one must obey.

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

this thread has gone off topic, so to bring it back about the priest’s advice: no sugar-coating, here. The priest was wrong in his advice and more than likely led the person who asked the question into sin. Therefore, the priest himself committed a sin by answering in the way he did. The priest should confess it when he goes to confession. The Church and COMMON SENSE guided by the Holy Spirit makes it VERY clear that any illicit drug use is morally wrong. sinful. end of discussion. dont let some liberal sinful priest lead you astray . . .

 

[fix]

UKcatholicGuy:

this thread has gone off topic, so to bring it back about the priest’s advice: no sugar-coating, here. The priest was wrong in his advice and more than likely led the person who asked the question into sin. Therefore, the priest himself committed a sin by answering in the way he did. The priest should confess it when he goes to confession. The Church and COMMON SENSE guided by the Holy Spirit makes it VERY clear that any illicit drug use is morally wrong. sinful. end of discussion. dont let some liberal sinful priest lead you astray . . .

Excellent.

 

[Ghosty]

That does not prove that the USA is not a legitimate government, it is your opinion which may very well be wrong.

On the contrary, the U.S. does not follow the guidelines of a legitimate government as laid out in the CCC. If you have a different opinion then by all means back it up with the CCC. My opinion may indeed be wrong, but it’s formed using the guidelines provided to me by the Church, and in good conscience.

I have heard no US bishops declare that the USA is illegitimate and the Pope saying he was correct.

Irrelevant. Bishops declaring a government illegitimate is a very rare occurance in history. The absence of it doesn’t back up your point.

This is the same compass claiming violating a civil law is not a sin which is contrary to Catholic teaching?

First off, I never said that violating a civil law is not a sin in all cases, only that I can see how it wouldn’t be a sin in the case of illegitimate government because illegitimate government doesn’t have the authority to make such laws, as defined in the CCC. Secondly, you still haven’t supplied a counter to this other than “you’re wrong”, so saying that it is contrary to Catholic teaching is, at best, unsubstantiated. I’m the one using the CCC to back myself up here, I’ve not seen you do the same. When you actually use Church teaching to back up your statements, we can have a more indepth discussion.

Where it is illegal one must obey.

In the case of a legitimate government, as defined by the CCC, I agree 100%!

 

[kmktexas]

Ghosty,

You have offered no proof as to how the US government (or the government of any country where marijuana is illegal) is not a legitimate government. Let’s look at what the CCC actually says:

2234 God’s fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it.

Under the duties of citizens

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God.” Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

and about conscience

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:

Since there is no command from God that we smoke pot, I think this one is pretty clear.

You seem to be trying to say that any Government that does not perfectly conform to the CCC is not legitimate. I don’t think govenments are perfect any more than the people who are under thier authority are perfect. This does not give me the right to ignore laws. Neither is it an excuse for license in the name of rights.

 

[Ghosty]

kmktexas: Yes, those passages deal with the duties and powers of a government that has received authority from God. Please reread the passages I posted about where such authority comes from. I most certainly have posted the reasons why the U.S. government is illegitimate, but specifically I refer to abortion laws that defend with violence those who murder infants in the womb. Such laws undermine the moral legitimacy that is the foundation for just government. A government that does not work for the common good, including the good of the unborn, and that directly commits violence against the Natural Law, is an illegitimate authority according to the CCC.

 

[fix]

Your interpetation that the US is not legitimate does not make it so. Smoking pot is a sin. Not my teaching, but the Church’s teaching says so.

 

[eyeCalypso]

fix:

Your interpetation that the US is not legitimate does not make it so.

One could look at the Catechism and come to that conclusion (depending on the interpretation of “moral order”):

"Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.” "(CCC 1903)

fix:

Smoking pot is a sin. Not my teaching, but the Church’s teaching says so.

That’s not in the Catechism.

 

[Pious_Redeemer]

KDoerr:

Surprises me too! I thought it was illegal everywhere. Aren’t we supposed to lead others away from sin?

Cannabis is completely legal in Nepal (part of a very old tradition that uses hashish in the kitchen, mostly in desserts - El Hasjiesj in Arabic afterall means ‘the herb’); and it is being tolerated in The Netherlands (from the beginning of the '60). Almost every village there has a few coffeeshops that freely sell about 10 - 30 different sorts of marihuana and hashish. Some average townes of 100.000 people have 20 of these coffeeshops and more. And I’m not counting the countless Cannabis home growers and the countless ‘house addresses’ that sell their marihuana and hashish at a lower price than the coffeeshops do (because they don’t pay taxes - they ‘moonlight’ so to speak). If you ever visit Amsterdam, go and take a look at their Hashmuseum (they have a website I think). It gives very good information about the history of Cannabis, it’s medical usages and it’s history in The Netherlands in particular.

I don’t know whether it is a sin or not. Excessive behaviour is, but when you have smoked a joint with ‘good stuff’, you will be intoxicated. Allthough the effect might be different, it is also an intoxication just like being drunk is, so it too is an excess. So I guess you can’t use Cannabis moderatly, as, on the contrary, you could have 3 or 4 beers without being intoxicated.

Perhaps if it were possible to breed a cannabisplant that has less thc it could be used in a moderate way to ease pain f.e., without getting stoned or high. This way, intoxication would be out of the question but the more healthy aspects of this herb could be preserved and used.

 

[Ghosty]

Yep, authority breaks down completely according to the CCC. Doesn’t appear to me to have a lot of wiggle room. In a government, such as the U.S., that supports the absolute grotesque violation of Natural Law and even goes so far as to defend that violation with the use of force, I would say authority has broken down completely by the definition in the CCC.

Pious Redeemer: Indeed, smoking “the good stuff” (such an ironic name) should be considered a sin when it leads to heavy intoxication. There are varying degrees of potency in marijuana, however, just the same as with alcoholic drinks. There is marijuana equivalents to hard liquor just as there are marijuana equivalents to beer.

 

[tcay584]

eyeCalypso:

Ahh, here’s a point I don’t think anyone’s raised here. Is prohibition of marijuana either moral or natural?

Marijuana is a plant (made by God Himself). What could be more unnatural than making nature itself illegal?

Also in 2000 years of marijuana use, not a single death is ever attributed to using marijuana. No OD’s. Also, no study has shown that lung, heart or any other disease has ever been linked to marijuana use. It’s not physically addictive. Apparently it’s a benign substance that does very little harm to the body, even when smoked. So what’s immoral about consuming marijuana?

Could one rightly suggest that the prohibition of marijuana is unjust?

EC,
There are indeed no studies showing the effects of prolonged pot use because it’s hard to find a few thousand people willing to admit they habitually break the law to sign up for a research study. Any consumed matter that has a deleterious effect on the body (temple of the HS) is considered a sin. Mortal vs. venial is debatable. Your statement about pot being benign is unsubstantiated, as is your statement regarding it’s addictive nature. If you can point me in the direction of some convincing scientific literature that says that pot is safe…oh, yeah, never mind…there isn’t any. Pot smoking is as damaging to your lungs as cigarette smoking. Logically, why wouldn’t it be? Burning smoke going into lungs…always a bad idea. And by the way, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was natural and created by God as well as pot. Look where that got us.
Regards,
Jennifer

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

I pray to the Lord that the posts on this thread do not indicate the opinions of the majority of Catholics. If you think smoking pot is not a sin, whether it’s legal or not, you’re wrong. SMOKING POT IS A SIN. SMOKING POT IS A SIN. PLEASE READ THE TRUTH. SMOKING POT IS A SIN. Say it with me now: **“LORD, I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT SMOKING POT IS A SIN. IT IS A LAZY, UNPRODUCTIVE, GODLESS, SELFISH ACT. I WILL NOT SMOKE POT ANY MORE. I HAVE DISOBEYED THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH THROUGH MY USE OF ILLICIT DRUGS. I HAVE ABUSED MY BODY. I HAVE ABUSED MY MIND BY FAILING TO USE IT TO COMTEMPLATE YOU, OH LORD, AND CHOOSING INSTEAD TO INHIBIT ITS MOST BASIC FUNCTION. I AM SORRY, LORD, FOR HAVING OFFENDED YOU BY DOING SO. PLEASE HAVE MERCY ON ME.”**AMEN

 

[Pious_Redeemer]

Originally posted by eye Calypso:

Also in 2000 years of marijuana use, not a single death is ever attributed to using marijuana. No OD’s. Also, no study has shown that lung, heart or any other disease has ever been linked to marijuana use. It’s not physically addictive. Apparently it’s a benign substance that does very little harm to the body, even when smoked. So what’s immoral about consuming marijuana?

I agree with you, except for ‘the smoking part’ of it, because it contains about 70% of tar - much more than a cigarette. If one would like to use it in a physically safer way, just eat it or drink it (make a cake, a tea out of it, or use it as a herb for your spaghetti sauce f.e.).
But I still think that most people will get stoned or high from it, so it remains a sin.

 

[jmm08]

Tantum ergo:

Um, isn’t cannabis use illegal in almost every way (exempting places which have “medical marijuana” provisions)?

I have never smoked cannabis.

However, I am old enough to remember using good writing paper. Quality paper used to have about 5% hemp content. Apparently, hemp fiber was quite useful for several purposes – and processed hemp fiber probably had no value for abuse. Hemp ropes, etc.

One of the byproducts of the abuse of marijuana (and society’s efforts towards fighting drug abuse) is that we no longer have better quality paper.

 

[fix]

eyeCalypso:

One could look at the Catechism and come to that conclusion (depending on the interpretation of “moral order”):

"Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.” "(CCC 1903)

That’s not in the Catechism.

Avtually, the CCC says we must follow all just civil laws. So, smoking pot is a sin.