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R_Daneel
Guest
Getting closer.
Now, if only you could give me some reason why to take this legend seriously…
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Now, if only you could give me some reason why to take this legend seriously…
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davidv
Guest
As long as are convinced it is a fantasy legend, there is nothing else I can do. In all likelihood, all reasons I would provide would be deemed inconsistent with this forgone conclusion.Getting closer.
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R_Daneel
Guest
My beliefs are **not **set in stone. They can be changed if a valid argument is presented.
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John_Russell_Jr
Guest
My dear friendGetting closer.
There is eyewitness testimony. It’s in the bible. There were many witnesses to these events. Many of which gave their lives as a testimony to their truth. People don’t suffer horrible martyrdoms for a lie. Its far easier and more reliable testimony than that given about Julius Caesar and the events in his life. How can I be sure of anything I haven’t seen or heard with my own eyes and ears. How can I be sure the USA rallu exists? Do I have to go there or can I trust the testimony of others. I’ve never been to the USA so I cannot say it exists apart from trusting others on this be it pictures or the testimony of men. With regards to what you say about how can you believe these events it’s no different than with anything else. If you didn’t see and / or hear it you must take it on faith or leave it. Christian faith is not a choice we make it is a gift from God. It is freely given to those who seek it with a heart and mind that is sincerely seeking the truth in humility. The only way to get this gift of faith which enables us to accept such things that are beyond out capacity as you mention and evidence is by praying with an open mind. It’s not a question of being so docile you’ll believe anything. It’s a question of being humble and simple enough to say to God, " I don’t know if this is true. If so can you give me faith and help me understand it." If you also doubt God exists the easiest way to find out is to continually pray for small things and see if your prayers are answered. Perseverance is the key here though. God will only answer the prayers of a sincere and humble person. Those with faith reach a point that has no bounds where they having continually built up there faith they know the truth. And they know Jesus when they know more and more of the truth. Because He is truth. Have you read the bible? Have you read it in a way where you can have it explained to you such as bible study groups? Have you read the catholic catechism? Theres too many books on the faith to read them all but every question has an answer, often several answers for each question at least. The catholic church has been answering these questions continually for 2,000 yrs. If your searching for the truth, Jesus is Truth. Talk to Him. Get to know Him. Read what He says in the gospels is the best way to get to know Him. Ask for faith in the manner said and He will give it to you, if you show you really want it by persistence.
So, as said, you can only know by eyewitness testimony and accept it by faith. The difficulty in believing it is different to believing everything else we readily believe on faith because Jesus is a very controversial person for many. He is God become man and it’s because His message to humanity is both very demanding and also condemning for many. Jesus wants everything. He wants our very soul. But if we reject Him where can our soul go when we die? Jesus does not need us but He loves us and wants us.
There is no conflict between faith and reason. And there is nothing unreasonable about the faith. Your in the right place if you’re searching for truth. If you are here seeking, then knock and you will find Truth - Jesus. He will give you the faith necessary to believe all you mention and much more.
Your objections to the eucharist are based on ignorance and not fact too. Did you know we become what we eat in the eucharist? – other Christ’s and children of God. Divinized so that although not the equal of God we become Gods as scripture tells us. The eucharist is the entire Holy Trinity in each speck of it. Once understood it is the most precious gift God has given us- Himself totally. We do not munch on a man’s flesh and drink his blood. Holy Communion is God giving Himself to us in His entirety which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the Sons body, blood, soul and divinity. It is not just a man. It is God. A big difference. If God says we are to eat His body and blood in a sacramental form in the holy eucharist in order to have eternal life then what’s wrong with that? Have you ever seen holy communion being distributed? It is the most intimate act and expression of love God can make to us. In it He desires to be united to us by giving us His entire self. It is not something you should lightly ridicule without first having all your objections answered by the hundreds of years old replies that already exist.
God bless you
John
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R_Daneel
Guest
Well, thank you for your sincere and well meaning comments.
Why should I take the Bible seriously, and dismiss the Koran and the Book of Mormon, and all those “holy books”, all of which claim that they and only they have the truth? You say that there were eye-witnesses, who were willing to die for their faith. Nice assertion, but where is the evidence? Yup, it is again the Bible. During the ages innumerable people were willing accept torture and death because the ideal they believed in was more important to them than their lives. Does that lend any credence to the validity of those ideals?
Uh-oh. I was a believer when I was young. Not a Catholic, but a believer nevertheless. Maybe God did not deem me “worthy” to give me a strong enough “faith” to overcome my doubts. According to your words, he must accept the blame for neglecting me.
Been there, done it, have the t-shirt to prove it. Nothing ever happened. Maybe you will blame me for giving up “too soon”. Just tell me, how long is long enough?
Here is the rub. I do **not **reject God or Jesus, I simply do not believe that such beings exist. I hope you see the huge difference. What I definitely reject is the human concoction called “religion” (part of which is Christianity which includes Catholicism) as a whole lot of messy, nonsensical system.
They were half-facetitous. But the truth is that the Eucharist is at the bare minimum a “virtual cannibalistic” act. If one accepts the concept of transsubstantiation, it will become not-so virtual.
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
continued-
They were half-facetitous. But the truth is that the Eucharist is at the bare minimum a “virtual cannibalistic” act. If one accepts the concept of transsubstantiation, it will become not-so virtual.
I don’t have a problem with eating and drinking the flesh and blood of christ in the eucharist. If it really is him it must be God. It could not be otherwise. And if God tells you to do it what’s the problem? Its the spiritual compnent that gives eternal life though. We cannot have the ultimate holy union with God that we receive in holy communion unless he ives us his entire self. We don’t eat and drink flesh and blood except for the consecrated bread and wine. We are not cannibals. It is not cannibalism with God but with men it is. Its completely different. You should read Scott Hahn talking about Johns gospel and the eucharist. John :6 is the main chapter to read.
God bless you and I’ll pray for you in your searching:thumbsup:
John
They were half-facetitous. But the truth is that the Eucharist is at the bare minimum a “virtual cannibalistic” act. If one accepts the concept of transsubstantiation, it will become not-so virtual.
I don’t have a problem with eating and drinking the flesh and blood of christ in the eucharist. If it really is him it must be God. It could not be otherwise. And if God tells you to do it what’s the problem? Its the spiritual compnent that gives eternal life though. We cannot have the ultimate holy union with God that we receive in holy communion unless he ives us his entire self. We don’t eat and drink flesh and blood except for the consecrated bread and wine. We are not cannibals. It is not cannibalism with God but with men it is. Its completely different. You should read Scott Hahn talking about Johns gospel and the eucharist. John :6 is the main chapter to read.
God bless you and I’ll pray for you in your searching:thumbsup:
John
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R_Daneel
Guest
Correct. But a claim is not much. Anyone can claim anything
That does not substantiate the veracity of the claim.You see, here is my favorite claim, which you will dismiss out of hand. I claim that God himself revealed himself to me. He said that he does not exist, has never existed and has no intention to exist. When I asked him how can he claim that he does not exist, he reprimanded me and scolded my lack of faith. How can I, with my limited understanding dare to say that a nonexistent God can actually say that he does not exist? I said that it would be a logical contradiction. He said that it is not a contradiction, it is a mystery, on par with the mystery of Trinity.
Of course not.
How could I possibly be angry with someone whose existence I do not believe in?This is one of those claims that I find unacceptable. Love as we understand it, means many different things. It can be a pure emotion, which must be expressed in acts, otherwise it is just an empty claim. It can be just an act on behalf of the loved one. Maybe it might be to the detriment of the one who loves. There is absolutely no sign of any of that.
Sorry, my friend, this is blind faith. God does not help those who are in need. Many a time I have heard that this existence is of no significance, whatever happens here and now does not matter, because it will be “corrected” if and when we reach the afterlife in heaven. This is not acceptable. The actions of the Catholic Church contradict this assertion. The CC does give a lot of help to the needy, it maintains hospitals to help the sick. This existence matters. However, there is no sign that God interferes and helps the tortured ones or prevents genocides, or even sends rain to the territories which so desperately need it.
Would we, really? How do you know that? Don’t you think that we have an “immortal” soul that God himself cannot extinguish?
Which is also part of the Bible - and don’t forget, that the Bible is no authority for me. As a matter of fact, God did not “die” - he underwent a temporary inconvenience. God is not able to die, is he?
The question is deeper than that. Why can’t we just lead a good life? The teaching of the CC is that there is no salvation outside the church. Then there is a contradictory teaching which does not deny that “salvation” can be achieved outside the church. After all the CC does not wish to antagonize all the other adherents of different belief systems. This is one of my problems. It would not really matter if the Church would teach sheer nonsense (which it does). What does matter, is that the Church teaches contradictory things, and you guys are unwilling to see that.
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
Correct. But a claim is not much. Anyone can claim anything
You see, here is my favorite claim, which you will dismiss out of hand. I claim that God himself revealed himself to me. He said that he does not exist, has never existed and has no intention to exist. When I asked him how can he claim that he does not exist, he reprimanded me and scolded my lack of faith. How can I, with my limited understanding dare to say that a nonexistent God can actually say that he does not exist? I said that it would be a logical contradiction. He said that it is not a contradiction, it is a mystery, on par with the mystery of Trinity.
Are yo serious. I won’t dismiss it out of hand. But if it rally happened your inelligent. It can’t be so. You need a doctors help or its an enemy of God deceiving you we call an evil spirit. How does anything exist if there is no God? There is no answer to that except there must e a creator.
Of course not.
Why do you not believe in God? Is it your free choice?
This is one of those claims that I find unacceptable. Love as we understand it, means many different things. It can be a pure emotion, which must be expressed in acts, otherwise it is just an empty claim. It can be just an act on behalf of the loved one. Maybe it might be to the detriment of the one who loves. There is absolutely no sign of any of that.
Love is a very isunderstood word. It has several meanings. Love and evil are 2 opposites though. No words can fully explain God. But love is the best. We have to forget about our false notions of what love is though. This is the rason why God became a man, so we could see im in hman form and egin to grasp who he is better. But we can never fully understand the tanscendant God - even in eternity.
Sorry, my friend, this is blind faith. God does not help those who are in need. Many a time I have heard that this existence is of no significance, whatever happens here and now does not matter, because it will be “corrected” if and when we reach the afterlife in heaven. This is not acceptable. The actions of the Catholic Church contradict this assertion. The CC does give a lot of help to the needy, it maintains hospitals to help the sick. This existence matters. However, there is no sign that God interferes and helps the tortured ones or prevents genocides, or even sends rain to the territories which so desperately need it.
The problems are all due to sin. I personally agree in many ways. This creation of Gods seems a complete failure. So much suffering and needless death etc and so many going to hell in the end. The whole thing seems a hopeless mess and if there is a God his creation is a complee failure. The conclusion I draw is that God loves us so much that even though he knew we would be so evil and destructive in every imaginable way he still brought us into existence to give us the chance of eternal happiess. And God can possibly win completely in the end and the lot ends up in heaven. This is not catholic taching but in eternity all, the lot, an be corrected. No one knows eveything. I personally don’t think this is or will be the only creation of God, this world and us, but I’m dam grateful to have a chance that is very real of a blissfully ecstataic eternal existence that I know is a real possibility. The catholic church does an awful lot more tan hospitals too. Just because humans have messed up there world and are in general very evil is not Gods fault. He did not have to create us and we don’t deserve to be created. But he did gratuitously and ofers us eternal bliss even though we deserve nothing. And he gives it to us. The price for or existence and eternal bliss is that we have to accept God created us knowing we would be rebellious evil cratures who would inflict suffering and hardships upon ourselves. I’d rather have the chane Gods given e tan to have never existed. I’m grateful for my opportunity.
Would we, really? How do you know that? Don’t you think that we have an “immortal” soul that God himself cannot extinguish?
That’s the point. God never stops hinking about us. So we will always exist.
Which is also part of the Bible - and don’t forget, that the Bible is no authority for me. As a matter of fact, God did not “die” - he underwent a temporary inconvenience. God is not able to die, is he?
Jesus who is God suffered heinously, underwent death and rose from the dead so we could follow him to heaven. The Holy Trinity did not die. It is an expression. It is a mystery too.
continued-
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
continued-
The question is deeper than that. Why can’t we just lead a good life? The teaching of the CC is that there is no salvation outside the church. Then there is a contradictory teaching which does not deny that “salvation” can be achieved outside the church. After all the CC does not wish to antagonize all the other adherents of different belief systems. This is one of my problems. It would not really matter if the Church would teach sheer nonsense (which it does). What does matter, is that the Church teaches contradictory things, and you guys are unwilling to see that.
The salvation that the church brings into the world benefits all. God is infinite love which means although people are sick and ignorant and often don’t know the truth or what to do in this life they can be saved. God judges each on the basis of what he knows and believes and looks at each persons efforts to acquire knowledge of him and the truth. An insane person is completely exonerate from almost all requirements for salvation. Same with babies and little children. Same with those that were genuinely ignorant. If this were not so God would not be infinite love. The catholic church is the mystical body of christ and in a real way many are members of this mystical body who are not catholics. But if there were no catholic church there would be no mystical body of christ and no salvation for any catholic or anyone. That’s what t means. The catholic church has never taught only atholics an be saved, Quite the contrary. Any conflicts come from inadequacies with our languages and words and mans mind which is finite and sick trying to gasp and understand what is basically a mystery beyond him.
That is the difficulty. The catholic faith is a mystey way beyond our fallen finite minds. Hence we need a church acting under the guidance and influence of God to help us on this journey. We need revelation too such as the bible and tadition or we could figure out very little about God let alone work out why we’re here, how we got here and what we’re suppose to do. And we’re we go after here. There is nothing wrong with just leading a good life,but look at he consequences of millions of people changing to this attitude te last 50 yrs. The world is a compete mess because of shifts in thinking enmasse like this. The question needs to be what does God want and what does God consider a good life. If people focused on this the problems, wars, genocides, suffering, hunger, poverty and on and on would almost dissapear. Don’t see the catholic faith as a problem in the world. Its the solution. And its not wise to blame religions for the worlds problems. Man is a religious being by nature, he does everyhing religiously, man is to lame for all problems not his religion/s.
God bless you:thumbsup:
John
The question is deeper than that. Why can’t we just lead a good life? The teaching of the CC is that there is no salvation outside the church. Then there is a contradictory teaching which does not deny that “salvation” can be achieved outside the church. After all the CC does not wish to antagonize all the other adherents of different belief systems. This is one of my problems. It would not really matter if the Church would teach sheer nonsense (which it does). What does matter, is that the Church teaches contradictory things, and you guys are unwilling to see that.
The salvation that the church brings into the world benefits all. God is infinite love which means although people are sick and ignorant and often don’t know the truth or what to do in this life they can be saved. God judges each on the basis of what he knows and believes and looks at each persons efforts to acquire knowledge of him and the truth. An insane person is completely exonerate from almost all requirements for salvation. Same with babies and little children. Same with those that were genuinely ignorant. If this were not so God would not be infinite love. The catholic church is the mystical body of christ and in a real way many are members of this mystical body who are not catholics. But if there were no catholic church there would be no mystical body of christ and no salvation for any catholic or anyone. That’s what t means. The catholic church has never taught only atholics an be saved, Quite the contrary. Any conflicts come from inadequacies with our languages and words and mans mind which is finite and sick trying to gasp and understand what is basically a mystery beyond him.
That is the difficulty. The catholic faith is a mystey way beyond our fallen finite minds. Hence we need a church acting under the guidance and influence of God to help us on this journey. We need revelation too such as the bible and tadition or we could figure out very little about God let alone work out why we’re here, how we got here and what we’re suppose to do. And we’re we go after here. There is nothing wrong with just leading a good life,but look at he consequences of millions of people changing to this attitude te last 50 yrs. The world is a compete mess because of shifts in thinking enmasse like this. The question needs to be what does God want and what does God consider a good life. If people focused on this the problems, wars, genocides, suffering, hunger, poverty and on and on would almost dissapear. Don’t see the catholic faith as a problem in the world. Its the solution. And its not wise to blame religions for the worlds problems. Man is a religious being by nature, he does everyhing religiously, man is to lame for all problems not his religion/s.
God bless you:thumbsup:
John
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Leela
Guest
Isn’t this thread supposed to be about canibalism?
For Catholics, is canibalism always wrong?–even if you have crash landed in the Andes, have no other food, and there are dead frozen bodies from the crash?
For Catholics, is canibalism always wrong?–even if you have crash landed in the Andes, have no other food, and there are dead frozen bodies from the crash?
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Thing
Guest
I’ve never understood objections to canibalism. I would’nt eat you because that would be gross, but thats just me.
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awatkins69
Guest
Cannibalism is wrong, under most circumstances, as is testified to by Divine Revelation (especially the Old Testament). However, my question is whether it can rationally be proven to be against the Natural Law.
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Bluegoat
Guest
Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider why cannibalism is and is not practiced in various cultures.
In our culture there are cases where people are isolated and without food and a person has already died, as already mentioned.
I have heard of purported Satanists who eat human flesh as part of a ritual. Presumably this would be a way of directly flouting natural law, and showing grave disrespect for humanity. (I am not sure this is true, mind you.)
The reasons we don’t consider cannibalism to be ok is that it is seen as disrespectful of the body - it is reducing the individual to the status of animals. In the case of the already dead, it is a form of desecration of a body. If you kill someone to eat them, it is murder.
And in addition, it is a health issue - it is a good way to spread disease.
There are societies that regularly practice cannibalism, and their rational is rather different. Cannibals are generally divided into two groups - endo and exo.
Endocannibals eat members of their own tribe or family after their death as a mark of respect, and as a way of showing that they are still part of the group.
Exocannibals consume those not of the tribe - usually powerful enemies killed in battle. It is a way of taking on the characteristics of the fallen enemy.
In neither case does human flesh comprise a major part of the diet - it is something special and ritualistic.
Now, obviously Christians don’t see that this kind of consumption would be necessary for the reasons the people who are cannibals do, and it is still questionable from a health perspective. But I can’t see it as being immoral for those people in the same way it would be for someone from our culture. In one case is is a sign of disrespect and an attempt to take away the humanity of the dead, but in the other case it recognizes the person’s humanity and is an attempt to respect it.
It would be interesting to get the perspective of such a person on the Eucharist - I wonder if any of those cultures have been converted to Christianity?
In our culture there are cases where people are isolated and without food and a person has already died, as already mentioned.
I have heard of purported Satanists who eat human flesh as part of a ritual. Presumably this would be a way of directly flouting natural law, and showing grave disrespect for humanity. (I am not sure this is true, mind you.)
The reasons we don’t consider cannibalism to be ok is that it is seen as disrespectful of the body - it is reducing the individual to the status of animals. In the case of the already dead, it is a form of desecration of a body. If you kill someone to eat them, it is murder.
And in addition, it is a health issue - it is a good way to spread disease.
There are societies that regularly practice cannibalism, and their rational is rather different. Cannibals are generally divided into two groups - endo and exo.
Endocannibals eat members of their own tribe or family after their death as a mark of respect, and as a way of showing that they are still part of the group.
Exocannibals consume those not of the tribe - usually powerful enemies killed in battle. It is a way of taking on the characteristics of the fallen enemy.
In neither case does human flesh comprise a major part of the diet - it is something special and ritualistic.
Now, obviously Christians don’t see that this kind of consumption would be necessary for the reasons the people who are cannibals do, and it is still questionable from a health perspective. But I can’t see it as being immoral for those people in the same way it would be for someone from our culture. In one case is is a sign of disrespect and an attempt to take away the humanity of the dead, but in the other case it recognizes the person’s humanity and is an attempt to respect it.
It would be interesting to get the perspective of such a person on the Eucharist - I wonder if any of those cultures have been converted to Christianity?
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