Cannot err in doctrine

[manualman]

Good example. So I have wondered exactly how this works:

Option 1. Heaven responds to the church. The church decides which books of the NT are canonical and which are not. Heaven responds “Works for me” and it is true in heaven from that point in time forth.

Option 2. The church responds to heaven. Heaven knows which books are canonical and which are not. Heaven gives the church the wisdom, grace, and discernment to declare which works are canonical and which are not. The church proclaims what has already been true in heaven.

It would seem to me that only Option 1 could be binding and loosing per Matthew 16:19. But I don’t believe that is how it works.

But see, option #2 works when you understand the nature of inspiration. Take Scripture, for example. Books of the bible display very clear writing styles that show the influence of the human author. And yet, we also know that all scripture is “God - breathed” (2 Tim). So the answer to your quandry is: yes. Both #1 and #2 are true - somehow! Kinda like the Trinity - if your truly figured it all the way out, your brain would burn out! Humans simply aren’t equipped to fully comprehend the fullnes of God and how He works. I long ago forgot the citation but Scripture somewhere says “For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.” Cool!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Well this is an interesting statement. How can this be? Heaven is subject to the church? I don’t think so.

So if the church decided tomorrow that there is no such thing as purgatory, does God almighty shut down purgatory because the church said so? Because that is what you are saying.

Personally I think Purgatory exists so I don’t see that happening. However to take your hypothetical case, if the Church decided that it had been wrong about the existence of Purgatory, then it could change its mind. Now you might wonder what inference that might have in heaven, which always knew whether purgatory existed or not.

However if prior to the change in doctrine, it had been a required article of faith for Catholics to accept the reality of Purgatory, then that belief would be required for admission to heaven, prior to the change of doctrine, as faithful Catholics. Mind you I think God would soon have disabused the church of such a teaching.

But I think the example you’ve chosen is not a good one. The contraceptive pill is not in that category, since birth control is an earthly reality here on earth, as are food and resource pressures, starvation, famine and all the rest. I’m also convinced God intends to drive us off the planet and in the early days of pioneering space settlement, there simply won’t be the resources for large families.

I think the pill was God’s gift, given at the very time population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the earth, to a large extent through Catholic researchers, and which was only negated because the Pope at the time chickened out of accepting the recommendation of a committee set up by him for that very purpose. It was a cop-out.

However since the Church has made a ruling on the contraceptive pill, what happens to those (very many) married Catholic couples who use it and then stand before the Judgement Seat never having confessed the issue to a priest, mainly because they thought what happened in their bedroom was none of the priest’s, bishop’s or Pope’s business. They’re not the ones who have to raise and support the resulting children, in a world which demands more and more material, energy expensive and infrastructural support.

Yet if Christ’s words were correct, then that ruling is binding in heaven, unless it is “loosed”.

Now as for infallibility, Paul himself had to rebuke Peter, and by extension, what might be called the Magisterium of the time over the circumcision issue (The Jerusalem Council). Peter was already moving towards the error of reverting to the Jewish law. Paul had to confront him.

Say what you like, as far as I’m concerned, the authority does not lie in the church’s self pronouncement that it is “infallible” as regards doctrine, but in Christ’s words to Peter, “What you BIND on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you LOOSE on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Obviously I think the errors will be relatively rare, but I’m sceptical that the church is always “right”. It used to think nothing of burning witches and heretics. Saying the state carried out the sentence is sophistry. The Inquisition tortured and killed all manner of people, and this was done with the connivance of the Church. Instead of the Church reforming itself in response to complaints about abuses all over Europe in the late Middle Ages, it stuffed around and stuffed around until it was too late.

Sorry, but I don’t accept the Church is always right. Like I said I think it’s wrong about the Contraceptive Pill (for married couples). And that’s an important issue in a world where thousands of children die every day from starvation.

 

[swariffin]

As a former Protestant, I’m not starry eyed about the Catholic Church always being right about doctrine. I think it’s wrong about the contraceptive pill for a start. Christ didn’t say Peter, even as the Rock, would never err. In the very next breath, Peter made his first mistake, with Christ rebuking him as Satan, and later ran away with the other disciples, and even denied Christ three times. That’s hardly a sign of infallible judgement or a promise of infallible doctrine, starting with the very first “Pope”.

However Christ stated that which Peter (and by later extension) the Papacy “bound” or “loosed” on earth would be similarly honoured in heaven. The simple fact that the two words mean diametric opposites implies the church can change a doctrine and heaven will honour the change. A change of opinion means a re-think of a previous doctrine, hence Christ’s statement all by itself implies the church is going to change it’s mind on various issues. There’s more involved here than the simple issue of excommunication.

That is a logical explanation. The RCC did apologize to Galileo and other scientist during the middle age period.

 

[Rocket_Man]

That Scripture has always sort of baffled me. Leaving out the issue of who the “you” refers to, the Scripture clearly says that heaven binds in response to what is bound in earth.

In other words what is done in heaven is a response to what is done in earth.

Then I scratch my head trying to think of an example where that actually is done.

The one example I can come up with is Acts 3:6 where Peter pronounces healing to the lame man in the name of Jesus Christ. Perhaps the miracle that did occur was a response to the pronouncement of Peter and the authority he possessed as an apostle. I am interested in arguments pro and con in this case.

If that is the case, then with all due respect to Benny Hinn, I know of nobody that has that type of authority today.

Maybe we are trying to make the verse too hard to comprehend. I’ve always tried to simplify the meaning as such:

Jesus gave the apostles the authority to bind and loose–speak and act under God’s authority–as the foundational representatives for the church. Christ spoke of that same authority in John 20:23: “Whosoever’s sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins ye retain, they are retained.”

 

[James_S_Saint]

My understanding of this issue might be divergent from Catholicism, so please note that I am not Catholic (yet).

Someone can construct various models of reality with each coherent to reality. This is similar to using a metric system of measurement versus the old English system. If a Church authority chooses one model or construct and documents that construct as “The Truth”, then “Heaven” becomes of that construct. Reality has not changed at all, merely the manner with which it is understood and dealt with.

If the proposed Truth is incoherent with reality, the construct is not “Holy” and thus does not belong in Heaven as it would create conflict (and thus not be Heavenly). Thus when choosing which construct to teach, “loosen on Earth”, one must be careful to ensure the holiness of the construct, but there are still a variety to choose from.

Is the metric system used in Heaven or the old English system? The choice lies with those who have the “keys” to Heaven. God doesn’t particularly care as long as it conforms to reality and is self coherent as well.

Perhaps this is better suited for the philosophy forum.

 

[SamDash]

It just seems like common sense to me.

Just imagine if it WERE NOT the case.

What would be the point of being a member of a Church that teaches things that MAY or MAY NOT be true? What would be the point of that Church even existing?

Christ came to give us the truth. Even if He had written a 100,000-page treatise on doctrine, people would still quibble about the meaning of this passage or that.

So, what did He do instead? He established a Church led by men who would be the repository of truth as well as be able to answer questions as they came up, for example bioethical questions certainly unanticipated a few years ago (much less 2000 years ago).

 

[Mosacked]

The only infallible doctrine is The Bible.

.

 

[Hisalone]

The only infallible doctrine is The Bible.

.

I agree. I have been waitng in the wings for Catholics to make their case before I comment and I will make a detailed post maybe tonight however, let me say this. Can the Catholic Church declare it is infallible without outside support? Do the scriptures which the CC uses to support infallibility really say what Catholics claim?

 

[ralphinal]

The only infallible doctrine is The Bible.

.

I agree. I have been waitng in the wings for Catholics to make their case before I comment and I will make a detailed post maybe tonight however, let me say this. Can the Catholic Church declare it is infallible without outside support? Do the scriptures which the CC uses to support infallibility really say what Catholics claim?

How do you know that the Books that we call the Bible are the correct books to be in the Bible?

 

[chris_molter]

The only infallible doctrine is The Bible.

.

Why is that? Where do Protestants get THAT from? Why just ONE infallible doctrine?

And what good is a Church that can’t infallibly define its doctrines? Are we to cross our fingers about all our beliefs since, if they’re not infallible they can be reversed sometime in the future?

Would any Protestant like to tell us which doctrines of their denomination are fallible and subject to reversal at any time? From what I see, most Protestants are just as sure of their own doctrinal infallibility as any Catholic.

 

[ralphinal]

Why is that? Where do Protestants get THAT from? Why just ONE infallible doctrine?

And what good is a Church that can’t infallibly define its doctrines? Are we to cross our fingers about all our beliefs since, if they’re not infallible they can be reversed sometime in the future?

Would any Protestant like to tell us which doctrines of their denomination are fallible and subject to reversal at any time? From what I see, most Protestants are just as sure of their own doctrinal infallibility as any Catholic.

Southern Baptists used to teach that it was the White Man’s God-given right to own slaves. I think they have recanted on it

 

[Tomster]

How do you know that the Books that we call the Bible are the correct books to be in the Bible?

Exactly! Thank you very much.

 

[shawn38]

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter,c and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.e 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bef bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.”

Ehp 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Cor 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasa”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

In Matt 16:18, The rock that Jesus describes is Peter’s profession of faith the Jesus is the Christ. It’s not that the church will be built upon Peter, but Peter’s profession. In Eph 2:20, the foundation is all the apostles and prophets, not Peter only, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Lord, throughout scripture, is consistently the Rock (Petra), no one else.

The gospel and the ministry are the keys to heaven. Peter happen to be the first one to bring it to the Jews after Jesus.

In 1 Cor 1:12, Paul said that “I follow Christ.” Paul was correcting the Corinthians due to division in the church for who to follow. Paul came to preach the gospel which is that key.

Here we have Christ holding the keys of death and Hades, and the key of David. Only Christ can open and close heaven to people for it is Christ that will judge according to the Father’s will.

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Rev 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open

 

[ralphinal]

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter,c and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.e 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bef bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.”

Ehp 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Cor 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasa”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

In Matt 16:18, The rock that Jesus describes is Peter’s profession of faith the Jesus is the Christ. It’s not that the church will be built upon Peter, but Peter’s profession. In Eph 2:20, the foundation is all the apostles and prophets, not Peter only, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Lord, throughout scripture, is consistently the Rock (Petra), no one else.

The gospel and the ministry are the keys to heaven. Peter happen to be the first one to bring it to the Jews after Jesus.

In 1 Cor 1:12, Paul said that “I follow Christ.” Paul was correcting the Corinthians due to division in the church for who to follow. Paul came to preach the gospel which is that key.

Here we have Christ holding the keys of death and Hades, and the key of David. Only Christ can open and close heaven to people for it is Christ that will judge according to the Father’s will.

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Rev 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open

Shawn,
Great post. Now, how do you know that the Bible is the correct collection of books? How do you know that something wasn’t left out or something wrong put in?

 

[Tomster]

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter,c and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.e 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bef bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.”

Ehp 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Cor 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasa”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

In Matt 16:18, The rock that Jesus describes is Peter’s profession of faith the Jesus is the Christ. It’s not that the church will be built upon Peter, but Peter’s profession. In Eph 2:20, the foundation is all the apostles and prophets, not Peter only, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Lord, throughout scripture, is consistently the Rock (Petra), no one else.

The gospel and the ministry are the keys to heaven. Peter happen to be the first one to bring it to the Jews after Jesus.

In 1 Cor 1:12, Paul said that “I follow Christ.” Paul was correcting the Corinthians due to division in the church for who to follow. Paul came to preach the gospel which is that key.

Here we have Christ holding the keys of death and Hades, and the key of David. Only Christ can open and close heaven to people for it is Christ that will judge according to the Father’s will.

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Rev 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open

Sorry Shawn. You’ve been misled.

It is the belief of Catholics that our Lord promised to Peter a primacy of jurisdiction over his Church (Matthew 16:18), a primacy which he actually conferred after his resurrection (John 21:15 ff). We hold, moreover, that it was given, not to Peter alone, but to the successors in his office and that it is vested for all time in the Roman Pontiff, who is the visible Head of the Church. No article of the Christian faith is more fully substantiated in Scripture and Tradition than this.

continued

 

[Tomster]

Shawn,

Let us recall the words of the principal Petrine text: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter (Aramaic : kepha), and upon this rock (kepha) I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shall bind on earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matthew 16:18-19). Our Lord makes known his will in a series of three metaphors whose meaning, clear enough to us, would still be clearer to listeners familiar with Old Testament Scripture and the teaching method of the Rabbis. He first compares his Church to a building of which Peter is to be the foundation; he next employs the comparison suggested by “the keys,” which will be handed to Peter as a sign of his power over Christ’s house; finally comes the reference to “binding and loosing,” a symbol of the moral nature of the office, which is furthermore backed by divine sanction.

 

[Tomster]

I agree. I have been waitng in the wings for Catholics to make their case before I comment and I will make a detailed post maybe tonight however, let me say this. Can the Catholic Church declare it is infallible without outside support? Do the scriptures which the CC uses to support infallibility really say what Catholics claim?

Posts # 35 and # 36 are for you too.

 

[Tomster]

Shawn,
Great post. Now, how do you know that the Bible is the correct collection of books? How do you know that something wasn’t left out or something wrong put in?

This is a very good question for Hisalone too.

I’ll be “waiting in the wings” for an answer.

 

[Tomster]

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter,c and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesd will not overcome it.e 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bef bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.”

Ehp 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Cor 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasa”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

In Matt 16:18, The rock that Jesus describes is Peter’s profession of faith the Jesus is the Christ. It’s not that the church will be built upon Peter, but Peter’s profession. In Eph 2:20, the foundation is all the apostles and prophets, not Peter only, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. The Lord, throughout scripture, is consistently the Rock (Petra), no one else.

The gospel and the ministry are the keys to heaven. Peter happen to be the first one to bring it to the Jews after Jesus.

In 1 Cor 1:12, Paul said that “I follow Christ.” Paul was correcting the Corinthians due to division in the church for who to follow. Paul came to preach the gospel which is that key.

Here we have Christ holding the keys of death and Hades, and the key of David. Only Christ can open and close heaven to people for it is Christ that will judge according to the Father’s will.

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Rev 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open

Shawn,

A necesary condition for an act of faith is that the believer should know what God has revealed. The object of faith must be presented to him as credible on the divine authority. But it is evident that, so far as the act of divine faith as such is concerned, it matters little by what means it is thus presented. The study of Jewish and Christian literature simply as historical documents may convince a person that certain doctrines are revealed by God; in that case he is bound to believe such doctrines on the authority of God’s word. There are undoubtably many outside the Catholic Church who, inculpably rejecting or not knowing her claim to be the infallible guardian of divine truth, yet believe some Christian doctrines by a supernatural act of divine faith. They have their motives of credibility, they have the assistance of God’s grace; they have, in short, all that is necessary for the act of divine faith.

But - and the antithesis is to be noted - these are exceptional cases. They presuppose inculpable ignorance of the Catholic Church, the divinely appointed means for the teaching of revealed truth. Although by God’s admirable mercy many outside the Church are enabled providentially to believe some small part of that divine doctrine, yet these must be content, as it were, with crumbs from the table of that rich repast which is spread for those who dwell within.

continued

 

[Tomster]

Shawn,

That we may be able to satisfy the obligation of embracing the true faith and of constantly persevering therein, God has instituted the Church through his only begotten Son, and has bestowed on it manifest marks of that institution, that it may be recognized by all men as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word. This, then, is the way of approach to God’s truth which Christ himself has ordained: a visible Church with a living teaching authority, infallible because the Holy Spirit is with her, preserving her from error.