Yes you have expounded on your answer and have reasoned as to why the Catholic Church cannot err in doctrine. This is all well and good however it is your reasononing, it is your understanding and is not a greater authority than yourself. How can that be? Even Jesus said there was the witness of the Father and the Holy Ghost to what He said and said not to believe His words only. Yet you would want us to believe what you say because you say it.I said “If it were the only claim” --if you’ll notice, His, I also said that “manifestly, that is not the case”.
See, this is why I sometimes feel, not exactly frustrated, but, well, perhaps, ‘saddened’ is the word I want. . .when I try to communicate with you. Because it seems that if I try to make ‘short answers’, you claim they aren’t ‘complete’. If I try to give enough ‘reason’ and not just make the flat, short answer, you seem all too often to misunderstand. Now, I’m sure that I’m not perfect in my communications but it does seem that others understand me quite well and again, it often seems as if you ‘alone’ (if you’ll pardon the phraseology) have the difficulty. But what the heck, I’ll keep on trying to give the truth as best I can and hope with God’s grace that ultimately I’ll succeed in ‘getting through’. . .
And all of Matthew, Mark and JohnDid you read all of Luke
Ralph I have given you a link where you can discuss your bible claims.You still have not proven to me that we have the correct list of books in the Bible.
If the Church is not assured by God to be right about issues of faith, HOW IS THE BIBLE THE CORRECT SET OF BOOKS?
It is not a hard question. How can you PROVE that the Bible is the correct set of Books
If the Church can be wrong, how can be sure the Bible is right.Ralph I have given you a link where you can discuss your bible claims.
You and I agree on 66 books and disagree on a few others. Your continued attempt to divert this discussion has not gone anywhere as it well should not.
Now is the time we must consider the Holy Spirit’s office in founding the Church and in her guidance and administration throughout the the Christian centuries. Pope Leo says that “the Church which, already conceived, came forth from the very side of the Second Adam, when he was, as it were, sleeping upon the Cross, first showed herself in a marvellous manner before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost.” It was the fulfillment of Our Lord’s promise to send “another Paraclete,” who should be the “promise of the Father.” (John 14:16; Luke 24:49) It was the last of the visible missions of the Spirit. And Our Lord by this gift to his disciples intended to complete and, as it were, to seal the deposit of doctrine committed to them under his inspiration.I will answer my question again. Is there anyonehere that can show where the Catholic Church got its doctrine that it cannot err?
The deposit must be “faithfully kept”; there have been occasions when it has had to be “infallibly declared.” The Holy Spirit is twice called by Our Lord “the Spirit of truth,” ( John 15:26; John 16:13) and it is to him that the Church looks for that gift of infallibility, that divine assistance that safeguards her supreme authority in its doctrinal definitions and in its ordinary teaching of the faithful. This assistance should not, as is evident from what has been said, be regarded as a means of communicating new truths to the Church, i.e., sola scriptura, sola fides, et. al., nor is it a positive influence inspiring the Popes and members of General Councils to utter definitions and declarations of Catholic doctrine. It is rather in the nature of a negative influence that restrains the episcopate and its Head from teaching or proclaiming anything contrary to the revealed deposit. But, though it may be called negative in its essential character, it is not negative in its effect - the preservation of the ecclesiastical magisterium within the limits of the truth. Such assistance does not necessarily preserve the Church from error except in regard of revealed truth and truths intimately connected with revelation, nor does it dispense the authorities of the Church from exercising ordinary prudence and diligence in preparing matter for a definition. This, then, is the special divine assitance promised by means of the Holy Spirit’s mission to the Church. “You shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)I will answer my question again. Is there anyonehere that can show where the Catholic Church got its doctrine that it cannot err?
But the Holy Spirit comes to the Church not only as the Spirit of Truth, but as the Spirit of Holiness. He is the principle of regeneration in baptism ( John 3:5 ), and of the forgiveness of sins ( John 20:22 ), and of all supernatural life. St. Paul exhorts us not to “grieve the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption,” ( Ephesians 4:30 ), and by whom we are united together in one body. “For in one Spirit were we all baptised into one body” ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 ), and that body is the Body of Christ, a visible and a mystical Body.I will answer my question again. Is there anyonehere that can show where the Catholic Church got its doctrine that it cannot err?
Hisalone,If the Church can be wrong, how can be sure the Bible is right.
That is all I want to see here. Please help me.
Others have posted the verses used to defend Church Doctrine, as well as the logic behind the understanding that these verses are saying. You do not accept any of it. I am fine with that. I am now asking you to take the next step.
If the Church cannot be assured that it is correct in matters of faith and morals, why should the faithful be assured that the Bible that Church assembled is the correct set of books without missing anything important or adding anything wrong. The Bible has no list of what should be in it.
If you read english it does say thatChrist never ever said that the Catholic Church would never err.
I have answered this questions many, many times. This thread is not about how God breathed the scriptures into existance. The scriptures themselves claim to be God breathed and inerrant. Catholics and Protestants alike claim the scriptures to be inerrant. Are their outside sources that say the scriptures are inerrant? Only the people of God and God as a witness through the Holy Spirit.Hisalone,
ANSWER THE QUESTION !
All well and good except for your understanding of “Church”But the Holy Spirit comes to the Church not only as the Spirit of Truth, but as the Spirit of Holiness. He is the principle of regeneration in baptism ( John 3:5 ), and of the forgiveness of sins ( John 20:22 ), and of all supernatural life. St. Paul exhorts us not to “grieve the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption,” ( Ephesians 4:30 ), and by whom we are united together in one body. “For in one Spirit were we all baptised into one body” ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 ), and that body is the Body of Christ, a visible and a mystical Body.
Finally, the Holy Spirit is the principle of unity in the Church, of her organization, and of all the gifts conferred upon her members. “There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit . . . But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.” ( 1 Corinthians 12:4, 11 ) He is the source and the secret of that “unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all.” ( Ephesians 4:3-6 ) And what is true of the body as a whole is true also of its organs. “Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock,” said St. Paul to the priests of Ephesus, “wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you (as) bishops to rule the Church of God.” ( Acts 20:28 ) “Let it suffice to state that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, so is the Holy Ghost her soul,” says Pope Leo. And he quotes St. Augustine’s words: “What the soul is in our body, that is the Holy Ghost in Christ’s body, the Church.”
The Holy Ghost is also called the heart of the Church, for, as St. Thomas says: “The heart has a certain occult influence, and therefore the Holy Ghost is compared to a heart, which invisibly gives life to and unites the Church.”
It is to be noted that the Church as a society is not merely the sum of the individual members, and he who is in the Church’s soul, in addition to his indwelling in the souls of the individual members, dwells in the Church as a society, an organism, a body and acts principally through the gifts bestowed upon the society - priesthood, ecclesiastical magisterium, and sacred authority.
This being so, no further and fuller manifestation and revelation of the divine Spirit may be imagined or expected; for that which now takes place in the Church is the most perfect possible, and will last until that day when the Church herself, having passed through her militant stage, shall be taken up into the joy of the saints triumphant in heaven.
The Spirit of Truth leads us to all truth but nowhere does it say that the Catholic Church will not err along the way. Just as the Holy Ghost leads individual believers unto truth and they err along the way there cannot be the assumption the Catholic Church cannot err along the way.The deposit must be “faithfully kept”; there have been occasions when it has had to be “infallibly declared.” The Holy Spirit is twice called by Our Lord “the Spirit of truth,” ( John 15:26; John 16:13) and it is to him that the Church looks for that gift of infallibility, that divine assistance that safeguards her supreme authority in its doctrinal definitions and in its ordinary teaching of the faithful. This assistance should not, as is evident from what has been said, be regarded as a means of communicating new truths to the Church, i.e., sola scriptura, sola fides, et. al., nor is it a positive influence inspiring the Popes and members of General Councils to utter definitions and declarations of Catholic doctrine. It is rather in the nature of a negative influence that restrains the episcopate and its Head from teaching or proclaiming anything contrary to the revealed deposit. But, though it may be called negative in its essential character, it is not negative in its effect - the preservation of the ecclesiastical magisterium within the limits of the truth. Such assistance does not necessarily preserve the Church from error except in regard of revealed truth and truths intimately connected with revelation, nor does it dispense the authorities of the Church from exercising ordinary prudence and diligence in preparing matter for a definition. This, then, is the special divine assitance promised by means of the Holy Spirit’s mission to the Church. “You shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
Lead to all truth does not mean cannot err.Well, Jesus does say that the Holy Spirit will guide His Church (you know, the “Church” that he explained in Matthew that He was building on St. Peter the rock) to ‘all truth.’
Now, if you would care to explain to me how the Holy Spirit can guide to ‘all truth’ and yet permit error, I’d be obliged. Seems that you expect that the Holy Spirit is NOT going to be able to guide to all truth. . .
If you would care to explain to me how the Catholic Church (which can trace its origins right back to the apostles) somehow, somewhere went ‘off the tracks’ (and give the proof thereof) so that it is NOT the Church that Christ was describing, I’d appreciate it. The very term’ Catholic church" was used by Ignatius circa AD 100–that is, about the time of the death of the last apostle, John. So either THIS Catholic church is the SAME as that one, or it isn’t–and if it isn’t you can provide proof that it isn’t, because the "real’ Catholic church Ignatius spoke of is obviously going strong and being guided by the Spirit just as Jesus said it would.
Lets see if we can understant this :--------------------------------------------------------------------------------If you read english it does say that
You have NOT touched the question.I have answered this questions many, many times. This thread is not about how God breathed the scriptures into existance. The scriptures themselves claim to be God breathed and inerrant. Catholics and Protestants alike claim the scriptures to be inerrant. Are their outside sources that say the scriptures are inerrant? Only the people of God and God as a witness through the Holy Spirit.
We believe the scriptures are inerrant because we have faith in God and faith in his word.
There is no outside source outside the Roman Catholic Church that claims that the RCC is inerrant.
You have faith and believe this claim all others do not. You take it by faith we reject it by faith.
But to claim to be inerrant with no outside witness is behaving like a cult. I am not saying the RCC is a cult I am saying it is behaving like one.
Is this any different than the Catholic Church cannot err because the Catholic Church says so?Now is the time we must consider the Holy Spirit’s office in founding the Church and in her guidance and administration throughout the the Christian centuries. Pope Leo says that “the Church which, already conceived, came forth from the very side of the Second Adam, when he was, as it were, sleeping upon the Cross, first showed herself in a marvellous manner before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost.” It was the fulfillment of Our Lord’s promise to send “another Paraclete,” who should be the “promise of the Father.” (John 14:16; Luke 24:49) It was the last of the visible missions of the Spirit. And Our Lord by this gift to his disciples intended to complete and, as it were, to seal the deposit of doctrine committed to them under his inspiration.
The conception of this deposit and the sources of revelation in which it is contained have already been discussed. We must insist, now, upon the fundamental truth that one of the effects of the Holy Spirit’s mission to the Church, and there is only one Church, is to ensure the safe custody of an unchanging revelation. The true Church teaches us that after the death of the Apostles no new economy or no new revelation was to be expected, and, further, that there never has been nor will be any objective increase in revealed truth. Holy Scripture assures us that the present economy is final; it is the “fullness of time” (Galatians 4:4; Ephesians 1:10); that Christianity stands, as it were, midway between the types and figures of the Old Testament and the final consummationof God’s kingdom in heaven; that, in opposition to the levitical ministry that passed away and needed renewal, Jesus, “for that he continueth forever, hath an everlasting priesthood.” ( Hebrews 7:24 ) It was to be the office of the Apostles’ successors to “keep that which is committed to their trust,” to “hold the form of sound words” which they had heard, to avoid all that was “contrary to doctrine” which they had learned, to “contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.” ( 1 Timothy 6:20; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Romans 16:17; Jude 3, etc. ) And Tradition teaches the same lesson - that from the earliest times Catholics sought to follow in all things the apostolic teaching and regarded novelty in doctrine as an unmistakable sign of heresy.
This is not to deny that there could be, and indeed has been at times in the Church’s history, a somewhat more explicit or more distinct or more technical presentation of certain dogmas. It remains true that, in the words of the 1st Vatican Council, “the doctrine of faith which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention, to be perfected by human intelligence, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared.”