Canon Law Regarding Education before Vatican II

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I was born in 1969, after Vatican II, so I have no concept what life as a Catholic was like before then. I can only go by what my parents and others have told me and, from what they say, it was horrifying. At least when it came to Catholic school.

My dad always talks about how the nuns, in his own words, used to “beat the p**s out of us all the time” and my mom and others have given similar stories. My mom especially tells a story of how this elderly nun, physically and emotionally abused in the worst ways. She said the nun would twist the boys sideburns as a form of discipline and she placed a girl in the corner once and said, “Turn and face the wall. I don’t want to look at your ugly face!” Anyway, she was my uncle’s teacher a few years later and he quickly became terrified of her. My mom remembers him sitting at the kitchen table, his hand shaking so badly that he couldn’t do his homework. At night, he would lie in bed crying, so afraid to go to school again the next day. When grandma got him ready for school, he would cry and beg her, “Please don’t make me go to school, mom. Please!” Well, like any concerned mother, she took him out of the Catholic school and enrolled him in the local public school. She also allowed my mom to do the same (mom was in high school by then). But when grandma went back to the Catholic school to register my mom’s two youngest sisters, the principal nun stood at the top of the stairs and said to her, “You took your two older kids out of this school. Obviously, we aren’t good enough for you. You can put your younger kids in public school too, since that’s where your heart seems to be!”

Of course, I get angry every time I hear this story told. When my dad brings up the subject again, I ask him, “Couldn’t someone have told the bishop or someone about all this?” His response was, “Hell, no. They could have cared less. And the only reason they don’t do this kind of stuff in Catholic schools now is because they’d be busted for child abuse.” (He seems to insist that nuns are still brutal in nature and they haven’t changed at all.)

So my question is this: I read a pre-Vatican II catechism once that stated, “Catholic parents are bound under penalty of mortal sin to send their children to Catholic schools whenever it is possible to do so.” And judging from the Code of Canon Law 1917, I am given the impression that this rule was heavily enforced. So would any parent who removed their kid from a Catholic school to protect him from abuse and placed him/her in a public school have been guilty of mortal sin back then? Perhaps, if they had a sympathetic priest or bishop, maybe they could have gotten a dispensation, but what if they were denied one? What if the priest (or bishop) just told them to “get lost” like that nun did to my grandmother? And what would they have done while “waiting” for that dispensation? Just keep their child out of school altogether?

Lucky for me, I went to public school in the 70’s and 80’s, so I don’t know if it was better to be in Catholic school during those decades. And I realize that today, Catholic parents have the freedom to decide how to education their children, but just hearing the stories of these so-called “good ol’ days” of pre-Vatican II (good, how?), I’m happy not to have lived during that time and especially not to have been a Catholic parent having to deal with an issue like the one described above.
 
I was born in 1954

Matthew 18: 6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones* who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Grave matter?

Peace
 
On July 28, 2013 Pope Francis celebrated Brazil Mass on Copacabana beach. The secular media referred to the loss of 1 million Catholic “members” to “smaller denominational” churches. Imagine a poor soul considering the education of his/her children. On one side of the street is the ancient, poorly lit, Catholic school. On the other the sparkling modern church of call Rome Babylon. What to do?

Matthew 18: 6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones* who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Peace
 
Humans come in all shapes, sizes and temperaments. Sisters are human ergo they come in all shapes, sizes and temperaments. Whether it be the 40s or 70s, some were bullies and some weren’t. I didn’t experience a vicious sister, but my brother experienced a vicious regular teacher in the same school.

My husband went to a public school and there were vicious teachers there; my mother went to a public school where a teacher partially ripped a student’s ear off by lifting him out of his seat by the ear.

I can’t see that parents were held too stringently to sending their children to Catholic school under pain of mortal sin - or it may have dealt with differently by different pastors. In my village there were two schools and which one you attended was based greatly on where you lived. My mom went to the public school; Dad, who lived about 1/2 mile closer to the Catholic school went to that one.

I really can’t picture my grandmother being told by the priest that sending her kids to that school was a mortal sin and continuing to send them all there.
 
I spent twelve years in Catholic school, pre Vatican II. I was never struck or in any way intimidated and I never saw anyone else intimidated or struck n

We had a very bad experienxpce with a lay fourth-grade teacher in DD’s Catholic school in the eighties. DD was a very quiet, obedient child and never had a problem with her, but she told me, “Mommy, she’s made almost everyone cry, even the strong kids.” A little girl, who was a good student, was out for an extended period with, IIRC, pneumonia. One of the assignments she completed at home was a book report on a "book about animals,’ as she was told by the student who gave her the assignment. She did the report on “Black Beauty.” However, it should have been a non-fiction book. The teacher gave her a zero. The dad saw the principal when he was doing his monthly Bingo duty and mentioned it to her. The next day the teacher ranted viciously at the child until she broke down.

By the end of the school year, we were paying the kids a quarter a day if they went to school without crying or begging to stay home. One of the moms had an end-of-the-years party with a big banner that said, “Good riddance to Mrs. Huebsch.”

She was one of the main reasons DD became a teacher; she wanted children to have a positive learning experience.

The school was well aware of the problem, but since the pay was so poor, they pretty much tolerated behavior like this.
 
I attended catholic schools beginning in the late 70s. Supposedly the sister teaching Kindergarten would hit the kids. The PE/football/soccer coach (lay man) did the sideburn twist thing. In HS the Carmalite brother that taught me Algebra II playfully attacked me with a chalk eraser for erasing a mistake on the chalkboard with my hand. He told me I looked good as a blonde.
 
At least part of it, no doubt, was the era. From what I have heard, teachers of both public and private schools in that time were more likely to be harsh in their discipline, both verbal and physical, which no doubt in some cases crossed the line into abuse.

My mom went to public chool in the 50s and 60s and says that teachers back then would sometimes whack you on the head with a ruler, or make you sit in a corner, etc. Maybe Catholic schools were harsher than public schools even then, I don’t know. But some of the post-Vatican II loosening of strict discipline certainly had to have been due to the general society’s evolving attitudes toward discipline and education.
 
My dad was from a Protestant family and went to public elementary school in a small US town in the 1950s. They had a vigorous program of corporal punishment.

In some schools in the US, corporal punishment is still on the menu to this day.

dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/09/15/corporal-punishment-continues-in-many-texas-schools/

I believe how it’s done in some schools in Texas is that the parents are supposed to sign off on it.

csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0926/Texas-spanking-High-school-district-expands-corporal-punishment
 
In some schools in the US, corporal punishment is still on the menu to this day.

dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/09/15/corporal-punishment-continues-in-many-texas-schools/

I believe how it’s done in some schools in Texas is that the parents are supposed to sign off on it.

csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2012/0926/Texas-spanking-High-school-district-expands-corporal-punishment
A bit of a side note, but I have a younger sister who graduated HS in 2009 from a central Texas public school. (I’m 10 yrs older than her and went to a different private christian school). My sister is good natured and funny but can get into trouble, as all teens can. Anyway, she recently told me that once in HS she did something wrong (can’t remember what it was) and got sent to the office and had a choice of getting paddled or doing something else (also can’t remember). And she choose the paddle! Ha, she thought it was kind of funny that it was an option and it seemed the easy way out for her so she took it. I’m not sure how accurate this story is, but I still think of it. So I guess that even if paddling in TX schools is still on option, it’s not taken very seriously by students.

I know that when I was in Elem/MS in the early 90s, supposedly we could get spanked if our parents signed off on it. I never got in trouble enough for it to have been an option, and I don’t think I ever heard of anyone getting spanked either. But supposedly it was an option.
 
My BIL taught in a boarding school in the 80s: a school “founded on conservative Anglican ideas and the notion that children were not challenged by present-day society.”

The boys were caned for infractions, the ‘swat stick’ was used as late as 2003. Some of the teachers seemed to enjoy it way too much and wore the ‘swat stick’ all the time.
 
There are people who like to wallow in the “horror stories” of what parochial schools were supposedly like years ago. Frequently, and sadly, often these same people will tell you they are “recovering Catholics.” The is no doubt that there were some sisters who proved ill-suited to their teaching roles, and were themselves educated at a time when there was more emphasis on discipline than professional education. Also as noted above, corporal punishment was very much a cultural feature until relatively recently, and in this regard both public and parochial schools would have reflected that culture.

That said, I was in 2 parochial grammar schools 1952-1960. Grades 1-4 were in a new school staffed by a Franciscan teaching order. They were great. Because of a family move grades 5-8 were in another state in a school dating from 1905 and staffed by a European teaching order, and all the sisters were French, German, or Belgian. That was a different kind of experience. Still, only one sister was somewhat…unpredictable. Part of this may have been due to the fact that by the 5th grade some of the boys were taller than she. Even so, I saw no deliberate meanness or intimidation. (OK, Sister M. would occasionally throw something…)

My Catholic high school 1960-1964 was staffed by bright, caring, advanced-degree sisters who were the greatest non-family influence of my life and for whom I remain grateful. Like “fish stories” in which “the one that got away” grows bigger with each re-telling, I think a lot of the “I survived Catholic school” stories have become more elaborate with passing time.
 
I had the same Sister as a teacher in grades 1 & 2 (split classes both years) . I don’t recall her ever hitting a student but she put students in positions they never should have been placed in.

She had a few of us go around smelling fellow students and report to her if they smelled of urine or feces. Some of my fellow students took to calling me ‘sniffer’, a name that followed me around for years and by which I was called as recently as 5 years ago when I was 56.

One day when I was in grade 2 she made me follow a grade 1 student to the bathroom to see if she’d soiled herself. No hint as to how I was supposed to accomplish that. I tried to check with the results you can imagine: we fought and I probably scared that kid to death, even though I was smaller than she was. Never did find out whether she’d soiled her pants or not.

She also made a kid who’d had the misfortune of passing gas sit with his rear end hanging out of our second floor classroom window. The woman was inventive, I’ll give her that.

I know that certain religious orders did not give the Sisters any say in what they were going to do to earn a living. One might have really wanted to be a nurse but Mother Superior said she was going to be a teacher and that was that. Didn’t matter that she hated kids and had been only too grateful to go to the convent to escape from a brood. Same thing with the ‘dorm supervisor’ looking after the boarders.
 
… So my question is this: I read a pre-Vatican II catechism once that stated, “Catholic parents are bound under penalty of mortal sin to send their children to Catholic schools whenever it is possible to do so.” And judging from the Code of Canon Law 1917, I am given the impression that this rule was heavily enforced. So would any parent who removed their kid from a Catholic school to protect him from abuse and placed him/her in a public school have been guilty of mortal sin back then? …
Hello,

In the interest of a fuller explanation of what the 1917 Code actually said, I offer the following remarks.

In the 1917 Code, Catholic parents who let their child to be educated or brought up in a non-Catholic religion were liable for excommunication (c. 2319). The 1983 Code has a corresponding offense, although excommunication is not required (c. 1366). What you are describing, however, (having a child attend a public school) is not necessarily equivalent to education in a non-Catholic religion. So, that canon did not automatically apply.

There was another canon which said that parents were not to send their children to non-Catholic schools unless the local bishop permitted it (1374). This law is directly pertinent to your comments. There was no penalty attached to this canon, though, so if parents did send their child to a non-Catholic school, no penalty would have been incurred.

Dan
 
O.K. I appreciate all the replies. My main reason for bringing all this up is that, given the canon law that prohibited Catholic parents from sending their children to non-Catholic schools. This would have put my grandmother into a no-win situation:

The fourth commandment obligates parents to give their children protection. If she kept my uncle in that school where he was tormented by that nun to the point of having a near nervous breakdown, she violated this commandment. If took him out and placed him in a public school (because she couldn’t get a dispensation), she violated canon law. Either way, her soul was in jeopardy.

I have no children of my own, so why am I bringing this up? I suffer from scrupulosity and I often fear that one day I may find myself in a situation like this (between violating church law and violating God’s law). I realize its different now because dispensations from church law are much easier to obtain. Still, I find myself feeling sorry for many who suffer from this like I do. I have attended a few scrupulosity retreats and have talked with people who grew up before Vatican II under harsh treatment by the nuns and had similar situations where obeying the church became unbearable. And so, I mainly used my grandmother/uncle’s situation as an example.
 
I attended public schools in the 90s and early 00s and witnessed corporal punishment, in some cases permitted by the school (spanking and paddling) and in other cases not (slamming a student into a door - this was in high school.) I did not witness physical violence against students by teachers when I was a teacher, but I did witness psychological manipulation and emotional abuse (said teacher was later fired).

The old stereotype that these things only happened in old Catholic schools by mean nun teachers is really inaccurate.

I would bring this up with your regular confessor. You don’t even have children yet. You are obligated to raise your children in the faith, but you don’t need a dispensation to not send them to your parish school. We will probably send ours to our local public school and CCD in our parish, and model a faith-filled family life at home. That is a perfectly acceptable choice, though it may not be best for all families.
 
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