Canon of Scripture

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** As a parallel to the canon, Lifter, how about the Gregorian Calender?

Do you know how many disagreed and completely voted against the Pope changing the Calender and erasing days from existence?

Are we setting our watches to the dissenters of that decision?..or are we using the ‘conclusion’ of the issue?

The validity of an argument or point of contention is found in the conclusion held; not the discussion phase of it.**

:cool:
 
You said that you agreed with the Reformers, but not only because they were the Reformers.

What is your independent evidence that they were correct, and that the Early Church was wrong? Even St. Jerome changed his mind over time, and accepted the Deuterocanonicals as inspired.

His reasoning to begin with was that the Palestinian Jews rejected them; he was under the impression that the Palestinian Jews were following the same tradition as Jesus and the Apostles - later on, he found out that their tradition was an innovation that did not occur until after Pentecost; once he realized that, he wholeheartedly went with the Alexandrian canon, because he then realized that this was the one that was followed by Jesus and the Apostles.
I don’t think Jerome ever changed his mind. Can you provide a quote/reference?
 
I don’t think Jerome ever changed his mind. Can you provide a quote/reference?
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

“What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us.”
Jerome, Against Rufinus, 11:33 (A.D. 402).

“This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a ‘helmeted’ introduction to all the books which we now turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom… the book of …Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style.” Jerome, Preface to Samuel and Kings [Prologus Galeatus] (A.D. 391).

“We have the authentic book of Jesus son of Sirach, and another pseudepigraphic work, entitled the Wisdom of Solomon. I found the first in Hebrew, with the title, ‘Parables’, not Ecclesiasticus, as in Latin versions…The second finds no place in Hebrew texts, and its style is redolent of Greek eloquence: a number of ancient writers assert that it is a work of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them to the canon of Scripture; so let the Church read these two volumes, for the edification of the people, but not to support the authority of ecclesiastical doctrines.” Jerome, Preface to Proverbs (A.D. 398).

matt1618.freeyellow.com/deut.html#St.%20Jerome,%20[347-419/420%20A.D]

matt1618.freeyellow.com/jerome.html
 
** …Not to mention St Paul, …, sought counsel with ‘the elders of the church’ instead of going ahead with decisons ‘that came to him’ privately!

…even after being up close and personal with Our Lord (Paul) spends time with Peter seeking counsel, clarification and ‘bouncing thoughts off each other’ …!!**

Where in Scripture do you find these statements?

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 ¶ Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

We all struggle against our own freewill. That is why we seek affirmation from God before proceeding with plans and missions.
 
The Acts of Paul and Thecla is an early “writing” – one of those spurious documents attributed to Paul that didn’t make it into the canon. Good thing. It wasn’t written by him.
Mercygate,

jmcrae was suggesting that Paul wrote books and letters that didn’t make it into the Bible canon.

I am asking which authentic writings by Paul were rejected. I don’t know of any.

As for spurious books…that is one of the reasons councils met - to keep the false books that were surfacing from getting mixed with actual writings by the Apostles.

The various Christian churches always had the inspired writings because they were being copied by the faithful and passed around from one church to the next. If not for Christians making copies, we would not have they writings. I don’t believe there is an original 1st manuscript of any Gospel in existence today. They are all copies made by early Christians. I could be wrong…do you know of one that is preserved somewhere?
 
For Anthony:
Ray Aviles:
There’s an argument going around the Catholic apologetic circles claiming that Jerome changed his position on the Apocrypha later in his life. That he came to accept these books as inspired because of the “judgment of the churches” on this matter. Furthermore, they claim the evidence of this lies in his citing these books using the word “Scripture” to define them. RC apologist Mark Shea provides an example of this in an Envoy Magazine article (envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html)). He writes:

"In his later years St. Jerome did indeed accept the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible. In fact, he wound up strenuously defending their status as inspired Scripture, writing, “What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn’t relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us” (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). In earlier correspondence with Pope Damasus, Jerome did not call the deuterocanonical books unscriptural, he simply said that Jews he knew did not regard them as canonical. But for himself, he acknowledged the authority of the Church in defining the canon. When Pope Damasus and the Councils of Carthage and Hippo included the deuterocanon in Scripture, that was good enough for St. Jerome. He “followed the judgment of the churches.”

Shea not only claims that Jerome accepted them, but that he “strenuously” defended them. A word used to intrigue the reader, but there is no evidence that he defended them, let alone “strenuously.” Furthermore, from the citation above, he states that Jerome followed the “judgment of the churches”, which Shea translates as the synods of Hippo and Carthage, but he is mistaken. Contextually, the “judgment of the churches” refers to Theodotion’s translation of Daniel which the churches were using instead of the Septuagint version. To add to this, he couldn’t have followed Carthage considering they met 17 years after Jerome penned the above. Both Hippo and Carthage were regional councils, didn’t speak for the entire church, thus it wasn’t mandated that Jerome submit to their decisions. Yet, it was Theodotion’s version Jerome refers to when he mentions the “judgment of the churches” and not their decision on canon:

"In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, “As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion.” Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not baring written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and free that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.
CONTINUED BELOW
 
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE
Ray Aviles:
The issue was Theodotion’s (a known heretic) translation of Daniel which was being used by the churches. The translation was faulty, wasn’t based on the Septuagint, and condemned by the “right judgment of the churches”, but the reader can see that this in no way applies to the decision on canon made at the local councils of Hippo and Carthage.

Jerome goes on to say that he is merely stating Jewish opinion against these books. Although this was the view he espoused, he was not the originator, and it put him in the uncomfortable position of arguing with the Jews on this. J.N.D. Kelly expounds:

“Jerome, conscious of the difficulty of arguing with Jews on the basis of books they spurned and anyhow regarding the Hebrew original as authoritative, was adamant that anything not found in it was ‘to be classed among the apocrypha’, not in the canon; later he grudgingly conceded that the Church read some of these books for edification, but not to support doctrine.” [J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco: Harper, 1960), p. 55].

He was further riled by the fact that the churches followed the translation of a known heretic instead of a Christian such as himself. As an aside, Shea wrongfully associates Pope Damasus as being in agreement with the alleged “decision” at Hippo and Carthage, but Damasus died in 384 A.D, nine years before Hippo (393) and thirteen years before Carthage (397).

Shea continues with the usual RC apologetic misrepresentations against Martin Luther, naming him as the culprit who excluded the deuterocanonicals (Jim Swan did a wonderful job of putting the proper perspective on Luther and the canon here) Yet, I’ve always found this to be odd reasoning considering the Roman Catholic canon wasn’t decided until Trent. Cardinal Cajetan (the same one who opposed Luther) and Cardinal Ximenes, both contemporaries of the era, wrote against the canonicity of these books as well. Further, there was opposition within Trent regarding these books, spearheaded by the group led by Giralamo Cardinal Seripando (for more information on this, read Hubert Jedin’s Cardinal Seripando, Papal Legate at Trent). The mere fact that there was opposition at Trent substantiates that no canon was in effect where the “judgment of the churches” would authoritatively bind the Catholic to the decision at Hippo and Carthage.

Shea reiterates his error here:

“As St. Jerome said, it is upon the basis of “the judgment of the churches” and no other that the canon of Scripture is known, since the Scriptures are simply the written portion of the Church’s apostolic tradition.”
CONTINUED BELOW
 
Mark Shea actually responded to the articles by saying:
Mark Shea:
Mark Shea actually read Ray’s article. Someone, unknown to me, wrote him and told him about it. Mark’s response is as follows:

“…[F]rom what I read of the critique of my article on the apocrypha in the materials forwarded me, it would appear that I did indeed misread Jerome (not wilfully, as the article suggests, but nonetheless erroneously). That is, it would appear that Jerome, although he did include the deuterocanon in his Vulgate, did so grudgingly and never really bought the idea they should be in the canon of Scripture. That’s the breaks. I make mistakes. It does not mean everything I’ve written is worthless, it doesn’t even mean that the central point of my article–that the only authority we have for canonizing Scripture is the Church and not some guy named Ray Aviles–is wrong. But it certainly does mean that St. Paul is emphatically right when he urges us “test everything, hold on to what is good.” I’m as prone as the next guy to passing on pseudo-knowledge. So are James Swan and Ray Aviles.”
As one can see, Jerome did not change his mind about the deuterocanonicals, at least not based on his letter to Rufinus. Even Mark Shea admits that he was wrong about this issue.

All of the above can be found at beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=ray+aviles
 
I’ve come to hear that there is a lot more private inspiration of the Holy Spirit going on with visitors to this site.

He never spoke to me, and I’m jealous. I’d love to have a little tap on the shoulder once in a while, or a dove hovering over my head, telling me what to do. Most birds who come near me do what you don’t want them to do, if you catch my drift.

Hopefully, the Spirit will move our friends in the right direction.

Peace
Perhaps God is speaking to you but you do not recognize His voice. 🤷

It took me a long time to discern when God was trying to tell me something.

When He would say speak, I was afraid and remained quiet. I didn’t want people to get mad.

But I learned to recognized the voice of God. When I know it is God prompting me, I go with it. It always turns out well.

I struggled the most when God said, “Shut up.”, because I thought, “If I just explain this, they will understand.” But now, I remind myself that I cannot explain anything about God. It’s the Holy Spirit who reveals God.

Do you really think God does not interact with individuals?

How does God use each of us to witness to non-Christians if He is not with us guiding our speech and even our mannerisms?

It is when we strike out on our own instead of waiting on the Lord that we strike out trying to witness.
 
For the purposes of this thread, I want to focus on how,exactly, this early, visible church revealed the canon to the faithful. In my mind, this was done at the councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo. Early and visibly done. What say you?
Yes, Carthage and Hippo are a part of it. However, neither Hippo or Carthage were universal in scope so even the most loyal member of the church was not bound to accept these two councils so the issue of what the canon is wasn’t settled until during the reformation for either side.
 
IThe scriptures are dead words on the page,whereas the apostolic tradition has the living Word of God.
Only those who are entrusted with the living Word of God can decide on and dogmatically interpret the dead words of the scriptures.
I disagree.

Scripture are able to speak to Christians.

MariaG, a devote Catholic and a very nice person said, “I used scripture alone and was led by the Holy Spirit. And later found my personal conclusions matched that of the Catholic Church”

MariaG didn’t need the Catholic church to explain Scripture. She understood from reading Scripture and then chose the church that matched her understanding!

The written word is alive and God speaks to us when we read Scriptures.

However, the reading of Scripture does not remove our freewill.
 
I disagree.

Scripture are able to speak to Christians.
It is the Holy Spirit that speaks to us through Scripture, not Scripture itself. It is a technical point, I know, but it is true.
Do you not realize that we are the temple of God and that His Spirit dwells within us? We have been given the Spirit of God, not the spirit of the world so that we may understand what God has freely given us. (1Cor2:12 and 3:16)
MariaG didn’t need the Catholic church to explain Scripture.
Actually she did need the Church - to realize that what she believed to be the Truth of Scripture actually was the Truth of Scripture.
She understood from reading Scripture and then chose the church that matched her understanding!
She did not choose the Catholic Church exclusively because it matched her understanding of Scripture - that is a misrepresentation of the truth. You are attributing to her understanding of Scripture and her decision to become Catholic, an exclusive, *causal *relationship when in fact it is a partial, coincidental relationship. Logical error.
 
Yes, Carthage and Hippo are a part of it. However, neither Hippo or Carthage were universal in scope so even the most loyal member of the church was not bound to accept these two councils so the issue of what the canon is wasn’t settled until during the reformation for either side.
Who “bound and settled” the issue for Protestantism? I honestly didnt know there was an official statement to this effect. Can you give me a link?
 
It is the Holy Spirit that speaks to us through Scripture, not Scripture itself. It is a technical point, I know, but it is true.
Do you not realize that we are the temple of God and that His Spirit dwells within us? We have been given the Spirit of God, not the spirit of the world so that we may understand what God has freely given us. (1Cor2:12 and 3:16)

Actually she did need the Church - to realize that what she believed to be the Truth of Scripture actually was the Truth of Scripture.

She did not choose the Catholic Church exclusively because it matched her understanding of Scripture - that is a misrepresentation of the truth. You are attributing to her understanding of Scripture and her decision to become Catholic, an exclusive, *causal *relationship when in fact it is a partial, coincidental relationship. Logical error.
I agree. I was pointing out that the Scriptures are not dead words because God speaks to us thru them.

He spoke to MariaG thru the Scriptures - that was her testimony. It is the claim of so many Catholics to put the Church teaching ahead of Scripture, yet Scriptures are the written word of God and the word of God which is Christ Jesus existed before the church. The teachings of the church must be consistant with the word of Gof which has been written down.

Why did God inspire men to write the Scriptures? If a Catholic can interpret Scripture any way he wants as long as it does not conflict with the dogma of the church, then what use it the Bible?

It is Tradition that is must not to conflict with the Holy Scriptures. Tradition in this sense is necessary to spread the Gospel of Christ Jesus. The OT affirms the NT. The NT in turn should affirm Church teaching.
 
Jesus existed before the church. The teachings of the church must be consistant with the word of God which has been written down.
I don’t know of anyone who disagrees with this. The Catholic Church chose those books that are to be read out at Mass, which became called the Bible, because they do, indeed, support the teachings of the Church.
Why did God inspire men to write the Scriptures?
To provide us with a written account of the history of God’s relationship with the human race.
If a Catholic can interpret Scripture any way he wants as long as it does not conflict with the dogma of the church, then what use it the Bible?
The context of the Bible is the Catholic Church out of which it came. In order to properly understand the Scriptures, we have to read them in context.
It is Tradition that is must not to conflict with the Holy Scriptures. Tradition in this sense is necessary to spread the Gospel of Christ Jesus. The OT affirms the NT. The NT in turn should affirm Church teaching.
Church teaching existed before there was a New Testament, just as the Old Covenant existed before Moses or his successors and collaborators ever wrote anything down for the Old Testament. Most of what Moses wrote down in the Old Testament, he received through oral tradition. That tradition existed long before he came along.
 
Who “bound and settled” the issue for Protestantism? I honestly didnt know there was an official statement to this effect. Can you give me a link?
Your question pre-supposes an authority structure that I suspect you know isn’t there. So why ask the question?
 
Your question pre-supposes an authority structure that I suspect you know isn’t there. So why ask the question?
Okay, so if there is no authority structure (the individual is not accountable to anyone) then how does the modern-day Protestant arrive at the conclusion that the canon of the Old Testament consists of only 39 books, excluding the Deuterocanon?

So far, we find that he is not submitting to any external human authority, and that he is not claiming personal revelation from the Holy Spirit. So, where is this information coming from, and what makes it convincing to the Protestant?

This is what we are trying to get at, here.
 
You made this statement:
…so the issue of what the canon is wasn’t settled **until **during the reformation for either side.
Which clearly implies that it was settled. Out of curiosity I asked

Your question pre-supposes an authority structure that I suspect you know isn’t there. So why ask the question?
I dont get it. You claim that you trust God’s Sovereignty in revealing the canon to the church; you claim you did not receive personal revelation on the canon, and you frequently give indications that the issue is, in fact, resolved yet when I ask for you to point to how and when this happened you equviocate that no “such authority” exists by which the canon is known. I dont get it, but that’s just me.
 
I agree. I was pointing out that the Scriptures are not dead words because God speaks to us thru them.
But they are dead apart from the Spirit. Do you think the Scriptures are “alive” when a muslim reads them? God can speak to us a variety of ways through the spirit - but we dont describe those other means as being “alive”.
It is the claim of so many Catholics to put the Church teaching ahead of Scripture
Now, now Ginger. You know this is not true. No one puts Church teaching “ahead of Scripture”. They put Church teaching ahead of their personal interpretation of Scripture IF that interpretation is in conflict with Church teaching. Big difference.
yet Scriptures are the written word of God and the word of God which is Christ Jesus existed before the church.
The written words are not Jesus Christ and they did not exist before the Church. You are confused. The written word of God consists of the OT (which preceded the Church) and the NT (which came after the Church). You are stetching and twisting simple facts to make a point unsupported by the facts.
The teachings of the church must be consistant with the word of God which has been written down.
We all agree. What you fail to recognize is that Scripture must also be consistent with the teachings of the Church which preceded the NT. How on earth do you think the genuiness of Scripture was “determined” apart from consistency to the Truth which had been revealed and taught by the Church prior to the compilation of the NT canon? Any writings which did not conform with the teachings of the Church - preserved in Tradition, protected by the Holy Spirit - were rejected.
Why did God inspire men to write the Scriptures?
What - exactly - does Scripture say about this very basic question? Is it clear? What - exactly - does a Christian who has a bible need a church for? Think about it…
If a Catholic can interpret Scripture any way he wants as long as it does not conflict with the dogma of the church, then what use it the Bible?
Because the Church may not comment on personal specifics like how I should forgive the woman who knowingly falsely accused me of firing her because she was pregnant, but God may speak to me through Scripture using the Holy Spirit to guide me in understanding that I am to forgive her and to pray for her.
It is Tradition that … must not…conflict with the Holy Scriptures. Tradition in this sense is necessary to spread the Gospel of Christ Jesus. The OT affirms the NT. The NT in turn should affirm Church teaching.
Again - you continue to operate under the delusion that the Church was not teaching prior to the completion of Scripture. Given that it was teaching prior to the completion of Scripture it is a practical necessity that Scripture conform to the Teaching of the Church every bit as much as Church Teaching must conform
to Scripture. They are both guided by the same Spirit of Truth and must reveal the same Truth.
 
I dont get it. You claim that you trust God’s Sovereignty in revealing the canon to the church; you claim you did not receive personal revelation on the canon, and you frequently give indications that the issue is, in fact, resolved ***yet when I ask for you to point to how and when this happened ***you equviocate that no “such authority” exists by which the canon is known. I dont get it, but that’s just me.
Not exactly. In your earlier post you asked

philthy said:
Who “bound and settled” the issue for Protestantism? I honestly didnt know there was an official statement to this effect. Can you give me a link?”

The two questions are entirely different. You are either careless w/ your words here or are playing dumb since I am sure you know that there is no protestant pope/magesterium. So, it is no equivication to reply that no such authority for protestantism exists since it doesn’t.

For my church, presbyterian, you can google the Westminster Confession if you are curious.
 
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